Weapons, Ammo, and RTB

[CharlesBronson]

    I know that if you put three mechwarriors in a room and ask them about the current armor values and weapon damage you will get four different opinions, but I thought I would share my observation with the rest of you anyways to see how you feel about it.

    Yes, some weapons are better than others.  Some weapons are better than others in certain situations.  Some weapons are bound to be nothing more than the battletech equivalent of one of those little black hockey puck snakes you get on the fourth of July.  And people will have their favorite weapon(s) that they prefer to use more than others.  Usually this weapon is BIG, the 5lb flowering mortar to continue the independence day analogy.  You are going to see people cart out that AC/20 or ErPPC mech because those weapons are going to do damage.  But the more I play the more I notice that many of the "non-primary" weapons are just fluff on the mech.  When is the last time you really saw a mech flamer used in battle?  Why do most of the mechs mount a SSRM rather than an SRM launcher?  What is the LBX/5 supposed to be used for??  What exactly is the machine gun used for?  And I know people have varying success with sbl and spl killing BA, but I sure suck at it...

    So these support/backup weapons to me don't really work that well in the role I think they are designed to fill.  The more I think about why this is the case, the more I come back to ammo.  A medium laser is by no means a mech stopper, but what it does give a mechwarrior is battlefield longevity.  With the small maps that we have and the current economic system a weapon like a medium laser drops in value because longevity is never a problem.  Quite often you can step 200m outside your base, fire a Gauss round or two, and cause enough damage to just turn around and refill your ammo again.  Ive rarely if ever been in the heat of battle and wondered if I should really waste this AC/20 round on the mech that just turned the bend or I should save it for later.  This to me is the major trade off and the reason for having a mix of energy and ammo based weapons in battletech lore.  There was a trade-off that you had to consider that I do not really see existing in MWLL at this moment.   Deep behind enemy lines, far from base and far from backup, and your Autocannon goes *click* that is when you look at the trigger to your medium laser and thank MechJesus for providing you with such a wonderfully reliable and versatile backup weapon. 

   If and when the mechlab comes along this phenomena that I have noticed I think will become a much larger issue.  How many builds have you guys run through your head and how many hours have you spent pondering where to stick the machine gun?

   So do you think that this is an issue?  If so, drop your suggestions on us.  If not, well then... hail MechJesus, and be gone with you.

[HAARP]

MWLL allocates a lot more ammo per ton than CBT did. 5 -> 12 shots for the LBX20, 8 -> 10 shots for the gauss, etc. This is one of the reasons that ammo scarcity is rarely a problem. People rather shoot as soon as the gun reloads than taking their time to aim.

I'd much rather have limited amounts of ammo and actually have to make use of my backup weapons
Also, crossfeeding ammo between guns would be a nice addition, so the single extra ton of ammo on the UAC Mk2 makes sense!
Or if you lose a gun, the ammo still loaded wouldn't go to waste if you have another gun of the same type.

Fixing ammo values would also give the APC a meaning besides mobile BA spawning platform.

[ARES]

You are piloting a Mech with 1 big and slow reloading weapon (lets say a HG or a AC20) and some small fast refireing weapons. You aim and fire your primary gun, and then try to stay on the target, fire your smaller weapons while your hard hitter is reloading.

What happens is, that by trying to stay on the target, dealing only a small amount of dmg, moste pilots face the enemy mech with their front site all the time. I noticed that by doing so, you will go down much faster compared to the tactic of avoiding the enemy until your hardhitter has reloaded.

So small weapons do often more harm to your own mech rather than to the enemy.

[CharlesBronson]

You are piloting a Mech with 1 big and slow reloading weapon (lets say a HG or a AC20) and some small fast refireing weapons. You aim and fire your primary gun, and then try to stay on the target, fire your smaller weapons while your hard hitter is reloading.

What happens is, that by trying to stay on the target, dealing only a small amount of dmg, moste pilots face the enemy mech with their front site all the time. I noticed that by doing so, you will go down much faster compared to the tactic of avoiding the enemy until your hardhitter has reloaded.

So small weapons do often more harm to your own mech rather than to the enemy.

I totally agree with you, but i dont think that it should be the case.  Your primary weapon is your go to weapon for a reason, but why not just dump all those backups and put another primary weapon.  I would like to see the "backup" weapons get some mileage and use as well.

[Rally]

I like backup weapons, but building a mech with the intention of running out of ammo and then using backup weapons is simply stupid. Why shoot the enemy with a pathetically weak backup weapon when you can just decide to carry more ammo for your big gun instead. Of course, lowering the armor values like I suggested might make backup weapons more viable cause then they could actually damage something, but that's just a speculation.

But I'm with you on the crossfeeding HAARP. That's how it works in battletech and that's how it worked in MW2 and that's how it should be here.

[HAARP]

Well, allocate more tons to ammo then
Some mech variants simply weren't designed with long engagements in mind. Others were, Then there's those designed to alternate between laser and AC fire. Or those that simply can't carry enough ammo due to tonnage constraints and hit'n'run tactics in mind.
It's not like I want to make variants useless. Just don't make it so a single ton of LBX20 ammo is enough to core 3 lights

[dsi1]

I'd like a reduction in ammo per ton IF people started bringing up APCs to rearm from. (So you don't have to walk half way across sandblasted at ~60 KM/h)

Also yeah crossfeeding is a must, wondered why that wasn't in already my self.

[=KoS=Zeus]

I dunno, the Warhammer Prime's battery of secondary weapons seems to do some pretty devastating damage to the enemy at close range. Considering that for the same tonnage I could mount a pair of Large Lasers (and then overheat like a mo fo) or a third PPC and 3 heat sinks (and still overheat like a mo'fo) I find that the Warhammer Prime (and the Loki Prime which is just a better clan version of the same machine) perform extremely well when someone dares to walk into close range with them. The PPCs keep the enemy unbalanced while the Pulse Lasers go to work and the SRM-6 smacks them around for considerable damage as well, as well as very rapidly. I've often gunned down enemy mechs with my quick secondary weapons because their big bad HGauss or LB-20X is busy reloading after missing a shot thanks to my PPC or SRM hits, and the pulse lasers chew that last bit of armor off.

[EvilMD]

I think the reason we don't have crossfeeding is because this is based on many CBT rules/trends. For the most part the ammo was stored in or near the location of the weapon. AC/10 in the RA, ammo would be stored in the RT. Not sure if this was always the case but for the most part it was. The thought being that not all the ammo was kept in the same big bin.

Personally I would like crossfeeding but to me it's not that important. I would rather they drop everything to get TC up and running ASAP, but that's just me.

[snooggums]

The reason a lot of mechs have a mix of weaponry was also because of minimum range limitations and damage per distance ratios, and infantry was handled differently when included in the game. 

Everything that had a range past the Large Laser (IIRC) had a minimum range limit where it was harder to hit. Shooting a PPC up close was hard to hit, had a 1:1 damage ratio and was a single shot. Two medium lasers would put out the same total potential damage, would be more likely to at least get partial damage and generated 60% of the heat (for heat sinks not being used by the PPC) for two tons in addition to the PPC. Two machine guns and one ton of ammo would do 2D6x2 damage to infantry squads for no heat up close while the energy weapons did their normal damage.

In Mechwarrior games the minimum range was not accounted for, so close range weaponry was redundant. The closest mech to the concept is the med laser/ELRM Catapult. With the LRM minimum range limitation the medium lasers are the only choice, and 4 lasers is 20 damage while the two ELRMs would be 30 max but on average around 20 damage as well. About even damage at each range, but the ELRMs weight more because they go farther. Just like how medium and small lasers are better for heat and weight to damage than a PPC. Since Mechwarrior ranges aren't as easy to maintain a couple hundred meters isn't really much different for range, and without squishy targets the light weapons always seem very weak.

I'd sure love to trade one of the primary weapons on most of the assault mechs for some close range weaponry, especially when they run hot when alpha striking with the long range stuff. Might as well get a little better heat control and close range damage instead.

[xInVicTuSx]

I dunno, the Warhammer Prime's battery of secondary weapons seems to do some pretty devastating damage to the enemy at close range. Considering that for the same tonnage I could mount a pair of Large Lasers (and then overheat like a mo fo) or a third PPC and 3 heat sinks (and still overheat like a mo'fo) I find that the Warhammer Prime (and the Loki Prime which is just a better clan version of the same machine) perform extremely well when someone dares to walk into close range with them. The PPCs keep the enemy unbalanced while the Pulse Lasers go to work and the SRM-6 smacks them around for considerable damage as well, as well as very rapidly. I've often gunned down enemy mechs with my quick secondary weapons because their big bad HGauss or LB-20X is busy reloading after missing a shot thanks to my PPC or SRM hits, and the pulse lasers chew that last bit of armor off.

QFT.

I've had some very surprising success with the Warhammer prime, it looks inferior on paper, but it actually is a very solid design. Throw in proper PPC damage values and your have a beast of a workhorse, still wish it was a bit cheaper though.

[Sir Tahn Maihem]

I could not agree with you more xInVicTuSx, the Warhammer Prime has been my favorite heavy mech since 1.0, I find my self choosing it over the Loki Prime and the Awesome Prime because its secondary weapons are capable of chewing through armor and murdering BAs. If the PPC damage was brought up to the correct levels then it would be (more) worth its current pricetag because it would be able to provide lasting medium-long to close range firepower that it is made for.

[dsi1]

I think the reason we don't have crossfeeding is because this is based on many CBT rules/trends. For the most part the ammo was stored in or near the location of the weapon. AC/10 in the RA, ammo would be stored in the RT. Not sure if this was always the case but for the most part it was. The thought being that not all the ammo was kept in the same big bin.

Personally I would like crossfeeding but to me it's not that important. I would rather they drop everything to get TC up and running ASAP, but that's just me.

Wouldn't the support teams or whoever loads ammo into the mech just split the ammo between those two areas then?

Also yeah I'd rather have TC before crossfeeding, its only an issue on a few mechs.

[HAARP]

Ammo feeds in Battletech are broken. Look at arms, you could never feed ammo through them. Also, the bulk neccessary for even one ton of LRMs would be enormous.
So instead of bringing real-life into Battletech, bring Battletech into MWLL and if you feed ammo from your hip into the arm on the opposite site, whatever. Go with it.

[-SM-SUCKER]

In the table top we once built a 'mech with SRMs in it's legs... Try aimong those at anything other than a tank parked in front of you.