Author Topic: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun  (Read 1791 times)

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Offline Lythandros

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Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« on: July 20, 2010, 08:02:25 AM »
OK this has bugged me something chronic! The BattleTech universe is 'supposedly' set in the 31st century, and granted I can see that with colonizing worlds and building governments blah, blah etc. the R&D boffins got slack. These supposed 'machine gun arrays' with 3IS and 4CLAN guns in series that were aimed at dealing with infantry, vehicle and armour assets should have realized that they FAILED, EPICALLY!!!

Ancient Archive know as Wikipedia from the 21st century:
Type:    5 barreled Rotary cannon
Name:      GAU-12/U Equalizer         
Place of origin:    United States of America
Designer:   General Dynamics
Specifications:
Weight         270 lb (122 kg)                                                 Rate of fire   3600 - 4200 rounds per minute
Length         83.2 in (2.11 m)                                          Muzzle velocity   (HEI) 3400 ft/s (1040 m/s); (API) 3280 ft/s (1000 m/s).
Width          10 in (256 mm)                                              Feed system   Linked or linkless
Height       11.5 in (292 mm)                                                        Sights   Lead Computing Optical Sight System (LCOSS)
Caliber         25 mm (0.98 in)                                                        Action   Hydraulic, Electric, Pneumatic
Projectile weight: (HEI) 6.5 oz (184 g); (API) 7.6 oz (215 g)
Muzzle energy: (HEI) 73,400 ft·lbf (99,500 joules); (API) 79,300 ft·lbf (107,500 joules)

This was the baby 'gun' and here's dady:
Name:      GAU-13/A
Type:   7 barreled Gatling-style autocannon
Place of origin:    United States of America
Manufacturer   General Electric
Specifications:
Weight   619.5 lb (281 kg)
Length   19 ft 10.5 in (6.06 m) (total system)                             Rate of fire          4,200 rpm (rounds per minute)
Width   17.2 in (0.437 m) (barrel only)                                      Muzzle velocity     3,500 ft/s (1,070 m/s)
Cartridge   30 × 173 mm                                                                Maximum range     Over 4,000 feet (1,220 m)
Caliber   30 mm caliber                                                               Feed system     Linkless feed system
Action   Electric-Motor, Hydraulic-Driven
Magazine capacity 1,174 rounds, although 1,150 is the typical load-out.
Muzzle velocity when firing Armor-Piercing Incendiary rounds is 3,250 feet per second (990 m/s)
The GAU-8 itself weighs 620 pounds (280 kg), but the complete weapon, with feed system and drum, weighs 4,029 pounds (1,828 kg) with a maximum ammunition load.
API projectile weight of about 15.0 oz (425 grams or 6,560 grains)
HEI projectile weight of about 12.7 oz (360 grams or 5,556.25 grains).
Accuracy: 80% of rounds fired at 4,000 feet (1,200 m) range hit within a 20 feet (6.1 m) radius
PGU-14/B API Armor Piercing Incendiary (DU)
PGU-13/B HEI High Explosive Incendiary
Armor penetration:
69 mm (~2.71") at 500 meters
38 mm (~1.5")   at 1000 meters

NOTE: This is an excerpt from Wikipedia pages on the GAU-8 Avenger and GAU-12 Equalizer
Surely in 1000years they could have come up with something to match them?

Offline HAARP

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2010, 08:06:03 AM »
Think of the catgirls!

Offline MercenaryMuffin

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2010, 08:56:19 AM »
This topic is now about grilled cheese sandwiches.

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Offline Rally

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2010, 09:26:25 AM »
What you posted are specs for cannons, not machine guns. You might not know it but there is a difference. It's like comparing cars and trucks. Apparently, neither of those is better and you actually need both.

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2010, 09:37:04 AM »
Please remember that this mod is about simulating Battletech, and not about general realism. We want to get a good balanced game that feels like BT and not a "realistic" simulation with 100 ton war robots ^^.
There comes a point where the talking must stop, and people have to do actual work.

Offline Lythandros

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2010, 12:02:07 PM »
What I was trying to get at was wtf is the point of a 2ton weapon that can't penetrate the armour of what it was designed to deal with?

I did post specs about cannon's yes, generally because when a 'gun' is bigger than .50cal(12.7mm) it's called a cannon not a machine gun, and how many do you know can deal with armoured targets? I figured that looking what the leading ranged weapons were 1000 years ago the Chinese crossbow was still the modern day gun and it was designed ~300+ BC. In 1000years i'm pretty sure the convention for the naming of a 'machine gun' had evolved just a little bit.

excerpt from Wikipedia 'Machine gun':

Machine guns are generally categorized as sub-machine guns, machine guns, or autocannons. Sub-machine guns are designed to be portable automatic weapons for personal defense or short range combat, and are intended to be fired while being hand held. Submachine guns use small pistol caliber rounds. A proper machine gun is often portable to a certain degree, but is generally used when mounted on a stand or fired from the ground on a bipod. Light machine guns can be fired hand held like a rifle, but the gun is more effective when fired from a prone position. Proper machine guns use larger caliber rifle rounds. The difference between machine guns and autocannons is based on caliber, with autocannons using calibers larger than 16 mm.[2]

An externally actuated machine gun uses an external power source, such as an electric motor or even a hand crank to move its mechanism through the firing sequence. Most modern weapons of this type are called Gatling guns in reference to their driving mechanism. Gatling guns and revolver cannon have several barrels or chambers on a rotating carousel and a system of cams that load, cock, and fire each mechanism progressively as it rotates through the sequence.

[2]^ Marchant-Smith, C.J., & Haslam, P.R., Small Arms & Cannons, Brassey's Battlefield Weapons Systems & Technology, Volume V, Brassey's Publishers, London, 1982, p.169

Offline nordwars

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2010, 12:51:10 PM »
Machine guns aren't intended to shoot at mechs. I have heard rumours, and have seen some unconfirmed proof (http://wiki.mechlivinglegends.net/index.php?title=Damage_type) that Machine guns have a damage modifier against anything heavily armoured. According to that link, they are only good against Aero/VTOL type enemies, and from what I've heard (and practised) also BA. I have even heard, contrary to that table, that mguns do not affect Mechs at all.

So, I get your point, but it doesn't really matter, they have their in game uses even if they seem a bit odd so far in the future. Don't start poking holes in the BT universe, you'll never finish.
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Offline Shivapt

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2010, 04:46:53 PM »
The "baby" Gau 12-U IS the equivalent of our machine gun arrays.

The "DADDY" Gau 13 is the.... AUTOCANNON / 2.

Remember, mechs have super hard ablative armor (i.e. armor that shatters to aborb impacts) - ablative armor is the counter to armor piercing rounds.
WWII defense against AP rounds was... sandbags on top of the tank - sandbags exploded outward and absorbed most of the AP's energy. Similarly, there is an israely tank that has chains hanging from the back of the turret to protect the vulnerable turrent joint from AP rounds - they explode on the chains, and when the round hits the turret most of its energy is already gone.

So, the baby AC DOES do damage to the ultra-heavy armored super duper tanks of the future. But very little, just little pieces of armor flying away. The big daddy cannon also does damage, but not enough.

Supposedly, an AC20 is the equiv to an 120mm HE round
-again, once everyone began using ablative armor extensive, the counter would be HE rounds to blow apart the most amount of armor. Once THAT begins, everyone should be back to standard armor, but I reckon by then there would be too much armor manufactured, too many units already with ablative, too much research spent... so the solution was NEEDS MOAR ARMORRR!! - kinda similar to what we have today - Enemy 88mm can penetrate 35cms of our best armor? put 40 cms of our best armor on the new tank!-
But I digress, as I was saying, an AC20 can be the equiv to a 120mm HE round (which, while impressive enough is the same as an M1 tank gun), but its an "autocannon", capable of firing several round, machine gun style. Even what we have in-game is impressive enough - an AC20 has an impressive rate of fire, and if we had a "tank" that had an M1 tank's gun, plus a missile laucher capable of firing TWENTY AT4's (our-time anti-tank4 weapon, a missile capable of goring a tank in one shot), AND two more particle cannons with 75% of the damage potential of the 120mm cannon EACH... AND 2x gau12 cannons.... You'd have a pretty damned frightening weapons platform. (Am thinking a Lrm20, AC20, dual PPC, 2 machinegun heavy mech here.)

With the bonus that the standard ablative armor is already pretty damn hard (this is "magic"), and can withstand small arms fire with no damage.

Offline dCK-Warheart

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2010, 04:50:09 PM »
Think of the catgirls!

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Offline The Saint

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2010, 05:22:37 PM »
To follow what Shivapt said, there's a natural limitation on the development of "machine guns". Once they get too large, they jump classification and become "autocannons", and there are indeed very advanced examples of that in BT. If they stayed small to stay within "machine guns", they have little reason to get too advanced, since a small size specifies a particular function (anti-infantry), and you don't need anything particularly more advanced than what's available now to mow down infantry.

Throw in the availability of small lasers and flamers, and it's not hard to see what machine guns in BT haven't advanced much beyond today's machine guns. There simply is no where to go with it.

MGs in MWLL can already fire continuously until the ammo runs out, which can be construed as major advancement in material science that allows for barrels that are heat resistant and don't wear out as quickly, or more likely that they're so weak that the dev sees no real purpose in limiting them with heat build up. If the devs hadn't reduced the range on them, they'd be quite a bit superior to current MGs.
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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2010, 10:50:04 PM »
What you fail to realize is that the GAU-12/U fires 25mm rounds.

The machineguns in battletech are .50 caliber weapons.

Common sense would dictate that the GAU-12/U is not exactly an anti-infantry weapon.

Also, machineguns in Battletech do not weigh 2 tons.  They weigh 0.5 tons for IS and 0.25 for Clan.
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Offline Nebfer

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2010, 01:53:18 AM »
What B-tech class's as a Machinegun is not what we would class as a Machinegun, In B-tech their are 20mm and 30mm weapons classed as a Machinegun, we would call them (auto)cannons (see the Fluff on the Scorpion light tank).

It seems in B-tech a Machinegun is a weapons that is primarily used in an anti-infantry role with light anti-armor capability's, while an Autocannon is primarily an Anti-armor weapon. Even though the two weapons can and do overlap in caliber.

Also note a B-tech "Machinegun" fires projectiles at a much higher velocity than what we would see in comparable weapons, for example the M61 Vulcan cannon fire it's rounds at around 1,100m/s, a B-tech MG fires rounds at velocity's over 1,800m/s (note B-tech MGs are effective in space, while weapons smiler to what we would be using today are not). Also note that a B-tech MG array is not the same as a rotary cannon, a regular B-tech MG can already be a rotary gun, as such a "MG Array" is a mounting that groups multiple MGs together (it's like the old WW2 era quad 40mm guns, four guns on a single mounting).

B-tech armor is thin, at best on a mech it's only about an inch thick, yet it's perfectly capable of stopping multiple impacts that would be in the range of a battleship gun, in terms of Raw Kinetic energy. Though on the other hand it is capable of braking if dropped...

An AC-20 is often fluffed to be in the 100-120mm caliber range, with a few notable exceptions of 150, 185 and 203mm calibers, and fire DU tipped "high speed" HEAP shells (with some fluff stating hypervelocity). As B-tech cannons are discribed as over sized machineguns, this makes Class 20s capable of firing 8 or more more rounds in a single burst (assuming each round is smiler to real life rounds in weight). Though there are notable Class 5 autocannons that are 105mm, 110mm and 120mm, though most AC-5s are 40-80mm in caliber.

As for LRMs and SRMs? Well a LRM (at 8.333kg) is 1.633kg heavier than a 105mm RPG-29 round (and both have smiler ranges on the ground, using base B-tech ranges). The AT-4 is only ~3kg... A SRM is 10kg which is about 2kg lighter than the Javelin missile. Though both B-tech weapons are used in space, with considerable ranges...



Offline HAARP

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2010, 08:06:55 AM »
Uhm sorry to burst your bubble, but Battletech machineguns are nothing more but .50 Browning. They weight 0.5 tons for gameplay reasons, that's all.

Offline MercenaryMuffin

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2010, 01:32:40 PM »
What B-tech class's as a Machinegun is not what we would class as a Machinegun, In B-tech their are 20mm and 30mm weapons classed as a Machinegun, we would call them (auto)cannons (see the Fluff on the Scorpion light tank).

Actually, Mech machine guns are analogous to .50cal machine guns. AC2 and AC5s would be classified as cannon weapons, hence autocannon. A machine gun stops being a machine gun after it reaches a certain size. Perhaps this is changed in THE FUTURE™, but all evidence points towards standard MGs as being simple .50 caliber machine guns.

Quote
B-tech armor is thin, at best on a mech it's only about an inch thick, yet it's perfectly capable of stopping multiple impacts that would be in the range of a battleship gun, in terms of Raw Kinetic energy. Though on the other hand it is capable of braking if dropped...

Sigh.
Okay, this is what bothers me when people mention battletech armor.

Ablative armor is pretty useless against armor-piercing weapons. The examples you provided are not effective at stopping the vehicle from being destroyed, only reducing the likelihood that an off-angle shot will penetrate. Sandbags were used as impromptu armor during WWII, mainly by US tanks, because the armor on US tanks was terrible. A Sherman could not withstand a long-barreled 75mm cannon round due to thin armor. Placing sandbags on top of the armor where possible would not stop that same round from penetrating; it will only increase the chance that an off-angle shot will fail to penetrate by a very tiny percent. There's a reason we don't use sandbags to combat anti-tank rounds these days.

Merkavas and similar vehicles do not use chains or cages to stop armor-piercing rounds from penetrating. A dense APFSDS round will not care if it impacts a chain before plunging into the tank itself. It's of no consequence to something moving that fast.
The chains are there to defeat RPGs and similar weapons, so that the explosively shaped projectile warhead most commonly used by RPGs will dissipate somewhat before it impacts the armor itself. A HEAT round will lose its ability to effectively defeat armor less than 2 meters after impact. A Sabot round will not.

If you think about it, a Mech is the ideal target for a tank. A mech is massive, slow (for anything beyond a light mech), and very easy to spot at long distances. All combat is first-shot, first-kill. There's no reason to believe this will change in the future. Modern armor is not simply steel, like HEAP rounds would be useful against. Modern armor relies on layers of sloped, alternating materials to form a super-dense wall of protection. All impacts will either be diverted, if an off-angle hit, or absorbed and defeated by the armor itself.

Take my Abrams, for example. The newer version of Abrams armor is multi-tiered: Reactive armor that explodes on impact, thus redirecting the energy away from the armor. Beneath that, sloped Chobham armor, which consists of alternating layers of steel, ceramic, depleted uranium, and flexible meshes that fully absorb or redistribute impacts.

Mech armor is not sloped. In fact, most potential impact zones on a mech are vertical. Vertical impact zones mean anti-armor rounds will have the maximum amount of area to impact, virtually guaranteeing penetration. If, as you say, the heaviest of mech armor consists of a single inch of ablative material (and I would assume a steel-like compound beneath that as skeletal support), there is nothing an Atlas could do to stop it from being punched clean through by a depleted uranium penetrator moving at a kilometer a second. Projectiles above AC range tend to be large and slow. Even Gauss slugs in CBT move no faster than a modern Sabot round, and they don't have nearly small enough of an impact zone to effectively penetrate armor.

HEAP rounds, like those used in BattleTech, are old technology, useful on large amounts of standard steel armor such as battleship plating, but not as effective as modern kinetic rounds like the APFSDS (aka Sabot).

BattleTech armor relies on ablative armor, which is not surprising given the use of directed energy weapons. Armor that flakes away under intense heat is ideal for dealing with heat-based energy weapons. Said armor is also supposed to "shatter" upon contact with kinetic impacts, which is all well and good, except that for purely ablative armor to be able to absorb multiple impacts, you must either: a) have a lot of it, and thus thick layers of ablative armor, which completely negates the idea of a single inch of ablative armor stopping multiple battleship-sized impacts, or b) have a way to very quickly replace the ablative armor, nearly instantaneously. Since there is no evidence to support "b", "a" is more realistic.

But once we start talking about thicker armor, we have to factor in weight. More weight means a slower mech, and also means that said mech is more likely to suffer catastrophic failure if its delicate system of bipedal motion is disturbed. Put a hole through a big ol' leg, and it's useless. Tanks don't have to worry about this. They can be pure firepower and armor.

It doesn't matter how advanced your armor is, or how many snazzy futuristic words for steel or ablative armor you throw around. A dense, dedicated anti-armor projectile moving at a kilometer a second WILL defeat it.

I'm not arguing that an Abrams could survive an encounter with an Atlas if the Atlas fired first, but I am arguing that CBT armor is only effective because weapon developers aren't smart enough to take advantage of their inherent weaknesses.

Oh, and Chobham armor doesn't break if you drop it on the ground  :P
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Offline HAARP

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Re: Lost Tech. The art of the 'machine' gun
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2010, 01:34:51 PM »
This has been discussed before.

Let me summarize: Every time you bring real-life into a discussion about science-fiction, god kills a catgirl.