Variant Replacement Discussion.

[xInVicTuSx]

Bad variants are bad.

With my work in previous threads on variant reviews I've found myself too distracted by the bad ones to move on to the good ones. Everyone knows why the good ones are good, but it needs to be made clear why the bad ones are bad.
And more importantly we need suggestions on better variants.

Now, I will try to be concise to make this thread user friendly and useful.
First a few guidelines:
1. This is not a "Variant D" thread, this isn't a place to dream of your Atlas with four Gauss rifles.

2. This is not a weapon rebalance thread, assume that the PPC you are going to include will do the damage most of us think is appropriate when you put it in your design.

3. This is a Variant replacement thread, only suggest replacements for the specific variant you think should be replaced, do not suggest totally new variants(D,E,F,etc).

4. Please try and take the context into account, what I mean by this is try to think of all the variants on the mech and fill the role gap that it is missing, try too to think about other mechs of a similar cost and factor that in too.

5. It would help to follow a specific format. Thus, try to have the following titles in bold: This Variant Sucks; please have a brief explanation of why the variant is bad and why it should be replaced: My Suggestion an easy to read blueprint of your mech, please take all the construction factors into account before you suggest one, lets not get bogged down on lengthy descriptions of how we reach a certain tonnage, My Argument a brief argument as to what role this mech would fill along with the how and why it would be better than the current one. With this format people can easily skip the part they don't care about.

6. Lastly, don't worry too much about price for now, the devs rules for pricing seem somewhat cryptic at the moment.

Feel free to comment on others ideas so we can have a discussion going, I will review and pick the ones for this first post which I feel the community agrees are good ideas.

I will include one example here and then post my own ideas as they come later in the thread.

Mauler B

This Variant Sucks
The Mauler was meant to mostly be a ballistics mech, slapping on some ERPPCs involves unneeded heat problems better left to mechs like the Awesome. The Ac2s and Uac2s, while still effective, are redundant with the Prime. The ELRM15s run out of ammo too quickly even with the ammo, even the Mauler Prime doesn't need ELRMs and that too is a very long range mech.
All it has been said by Zeus that this variant is very overweight and that just adds to the reason why it should go.
*Fixt, man what was I smoking thinking it has Mguns?*

My Suggestion
x4 UAC5s
x2 LRM10s
x2 ERMBL
4 tons free ammo. BAP?

My Argument
The Mauler A fills the long range heavy hitter role already and does it better without being redundant with the Awesome. The Mauler lacks a medium range high DPS design. My experience with the UAC5s on the Huit(even if they are clan) tells me stacked Uac5s would rock. Optimum range would be 800-500 meters. I think this is better than stacking RAC5s on the mauler because those are more unwieldy, spread the damage, and require you to get too close, we already have a good close range brawler.  This would deal great damage to lights and mediums, and respectable constantly gnawing damage to the weakspot of a heavy at great range.

So with that I eagerly await your suggestions, lets squeeze as much potential out of these great mechs as we can!

Note: if the Mod wants to move this to suggestions area that is fine, but I figured it would be better here for more open discussion.

[AoP]

I figured it would be better here for more open discussion.

Agreed.

[Jakajan]

Hawkmoth variant modifications.

 I am a novice player, and right now I can not log onto a map has vtol craft to make a comment. I do not know the tonage range of the hawmoth but here are some thoughts on them.

 Variant LRM I will call it. 2x lrm10's + Narc.

 Hell of a lot of fun. It is my preferred starting vehicle, I often use this until I can afford some heavier mechs. It is easy to nail most lighter mechs at range and harass them, the occasional head shots feel good too. They are by far the easiest hawkmoth to use. I wouldn't change it, but I might say it is the strongest hawkmoth out there.

 Variant RAC 5 + 2 machine gun.

 I have used this variant successfully to down some of the less skilled fighter pilots, but overall I do not feel this is a strong varient, suggested replacement might be to put an AC10 on its turret, or maybe 2 ac5's.

 Variant light gause

 I understand some of the more skilled players can make good use of this light gause vtol. I would not like to ruin it for those players but overall isn't a ppc a better damage to tonnage combo than a light gause? One ppc should not have a tremendous heat build up and would give a hawkmoth more air staying power. And if tonnage is the only issue could you imagine the fun of having a hawkmoth with TWO ppc's? I can hear the mechs cringing at that. If not two ppc then perhaps a ppc and an erl large laser. if memory serves the er large laser weighed one ton less than a ppc.
 I am not sure if the rules are the same here as in mechwarrior 4, but I seem to remember a light gause rifle using about the same tons as 2 ppc.

 last variant I will comment on, the one with a thunderbolt and lrm10 + narc.

 Overall a single shot thunderbolt does not seem helpful to me. I have tried it out and while yes, it does definately pack a single wallop. I would consider suggesting one of two things for this design.

 If you intend for it to be a long range, high damage single shot type of aircraft I would say put a fire bomb on it, or better yet a three shot arrow 4 artillary. I highly doubt it has the tonnage for even a single arrow for artillary but this is just a thought on effectiveness for bursty long range damage.

 the other idea is to kind of make a hawkmoth to replace this one that does something different. How about some SRM's or MRM's? An mrm barrage from a vtol would be pretty fun really. I find myself fighting most mechs with my lrm vtol within 500 meters of them, it's fun to try to fly above them , outside of their firing arc.

 I am not sure if the hawkmoth is clan, i kind of think it is innersphere, but if it was clan I would look into putting some clan mrm20's or dual srm4-6's on it.

 just my two cents. btw i love your mod but few people have been online lately

[DFDelta]

I am not sure if the hawkmoth is clan, i kind of think it is innersphere, but if it was clan I would look into putting some clan mrm20's or dual srm4-6's on it.

The Hawkmoth is IS, and there are no clan MRM 

I too would exchange the Hawkmoth C (TBolt) for a close quarter harrassing unit.
The 2x DualSRM6 seem like a good idea to me, completed with a GECM, the armor levels of the B variant, and maybe a BAP.


Warhammer C:
Back in the day it was a really cool running mech, compareable almost with the Huit B back in MWLL 0.1.x.
Now it is just overheating way to fast, turning it to some useless pile of metal.

Either turn it into a bigger warthog, giving it 2 RAC5, a MRM20 and 2 MPL.
Or if you want to keep the LPL as main weapons change it to a 2 LPL, MRM20 or DualSRM6 + something else variant.

[MercenaryMuffin]

Atlas A

THIS VARIANT SUCKS

The Atlas A goes beyond being useless. It is so useless, in fact, that it should be classified as "HURRRRR". It's the short bus of Atlases (Atlai?).

Let's take a look at the current set-up, shall we?

1xRAC5
2xRAC2
2xMBL
2xLRM10
0 Heat Sinks
5 Tons free


My Argument
Ick. This is an Assault mech? Really? You coulda fooled me. The LRMs suggest it's a long-range support mech, yet 2xLRM10s won't put a dent in anything at a noticeable rate. The RAC combination is terrible; RAC2s are anti-air and don't overheat at the same speed as the RAC5. Are they supposed to fend off aircraft? Because that RAC combination won't scare off a Shiva, probably even a Sulla. 2xMBL are also equally useless.

Trying to take out other mechs with this weapon combination is difficult at best. You have to constantly keep fire on a target, in a slow, lumbering Atlas, to even hope that you damage it. No one takes this variant out, and anyone who has tried has met a quick death at the hands of variants that actually have a role.

My suggestion

Drop the RAC2s and the MBLs. Replace with additional RAC5s. Remove the LRMs and replace them with MRMs or SSRMs, thus turning this Atlas into a brawler variant that can double as decent AA. It ends up looking like this:

3xRAC5
2xUAC5
2xDual SSRM6 OR 1xMRM40

I have no idea of tonnage for every weapon in the game, but on paper this seems like a more formidable mech in combat.

[Rally]

Mad Cat Prime

This Variant Sucks
It has lasers and LRMs, two weapon systems that are used very differently and it doesn't work out. On the move, missile lock-on takes too long to be effective and it doesn't have enough heatsinks to do serious damage with it's lasers. Running active is a liability as well, it makes you a prime target for the real missile boats while you're trying to get a lock yourself. The only real way to get good damage out of this variant is to crouch and go into turret mode, which is simply not what this fast clan heavy mech is made for.

So I'm proposing a configuration that'll make use of the inherent speed of this design. I'm dropping the LRM+laser concept entierly.

My Suggestion
x12 ER med laser
MASC
that's it!

My Argument
This mech will simply be amazing. It'll be like the laser Puma, with double the armor and double the weapons, only slightly slower.

[NSallaNuto]

Vulture Prime

In 0.3.x it disappeared from the battlefield because heat management issues. I would change it as follow:
- Replace LPLs with ERLBLs (-4 tons).
- Replace MPLs with ERMBLs (-2 tons).
- Add ECM again (+1 ton).
- Add 5 double heat sinks (+5 tons).

[=KoS=Zeus]

Mauler B

This Variant Sucks
The Mauler was meant to mostly be a ballistics mech, slapping on some ERPPCs involves unneeded heat problems better left to mechs like the Awesome. The Mguns and AC2s feel forced and the Mguns are redundant, 2 AC2s rather than 4 cuts down on their power and marginalizes them. The ELRM15s run out of ammo too quickly even with the ammo, even the Mauler Prime doesn't need ELRMs and that has longer range main weapons.

My Suggestion
x4 UAC5s
x2 LRM10s
x2 ERMBL
4 tons free ammo. BAP?

My Argument
The Mauler A fills the long range heavy hitter role already and does it better without being redundant with the Awesome. The Mauler lacks a medium range high DPS design. My experience with the UAC5s on the Huit(even if they are clan) tells me stacked Uac5s would rock. Optimum range would be 800-500 meters. I think this is better than stacking RAC5s on the mauler because those are more unwieldy, spread the damage, and require you to get too close, we already have a good close range brawler.  This would deal great damage to lights and mediums, and respectable constantly gnawing damage to the weakspot of a heavy at great range.

So with that I eagerly await your suggestions, lets squeeze as much potential out of these great mechs as we can!

Note: if the Mod wants to move this to suggestions area that is fine, but I figured it would be better here for more open discussion.

Obviously you have never actually used the Mauler B, and probably because of what is listed in the mech selection list. What is on the actual machine is so overweight it is ridiculous.

Mauler B actually has
2 ERPPCs
2 ELRM-15s
2 AC/2s
2 ULTRA AC/2s (Note: not Machine Guns)

By my calculations, this thing is at least 16 tons overweight. Comparing it to the standard Mauler you have. ERPPCs +2 tons over ER Large Lasers (+4 total). ELRM-15s are +5 tons over LRM-15s (+14 tons total), Ultra AC/2s are +1 ton over normal AC/2s (+16 tons total)

[dCK-Ad_Hominem]

Mad Cat A

This Variant Sucks
The Mech is a walking Achilles heel. The two CERPPCs it mounts deal nice damage on great distance but take too long to recharge and overheat the mech unnecessarily. In combination with the 2 CUAC10 this becomes even more critical since you will have to fire both UACs permanently in order to deal enough damage to stand a chance. Result is as follows: The UACs jam and you are left on close distance with 2 weapons that will cook you and take about 5secs to recharge. Miss and you die, overheat and you die. Face a compareable mech without these problems (Hellbringer C) you die.

My Suggestion
2 x CLPL
2 x CUAC10

+ 1 HS and ecm

or

+ 1HS and 1 ton of armor

or

+ 2 HS

My Argument
The LPL have a high refire rate and thus enhance the aspect the UACs already have. Also do they produce less heat and allow you to keep your enemy under constant fire even if the uacs are jammed/overheated. Also do both weapons have about the same range and thus concentrate the entire firepower in a very specific field. The mech should thus also stay cooler since the LPLs produce somewhat less heat than the ERPPCS.

[(TLL) Heretic]

Bushwacker A

Overweight and undergunned, pew pew RAC5s are pointless against Heavies and Assaults, fun in the early game for beating up on little girls (killing noobs who can't make it out of Light 'mechs & cheap mediums), but quickly pointless as the game progresses.  32ish tons of weapons on a 55ton machine is ridiculous (how's it not going 40kph with a tiny downgraded engine?)

So here's my realistic "Warthog";

2UAC5 (20tons)
4 ERMedium Lasers (4tons)


Nothing else as this machine is already uses 24 tons of podspace, the CBT Bushy has something like 24tons of "podspace" (it's not an omni)....somebody will probably cry that I've built a BlackJack or Jagermech, but they are solid designs if used right.

EDIT: Bolded stuff.

[(TLL) Heretic]

Mad Cat A

This Variant Sucks
The Mech is a walking Achilles heel. The two CERPPCs it mounts deal nice damage on great distance but take too long to recharge and overheat the mech unnecessarily. In combination with the 2 CUAC10 this becomes even more critical since you will have to fire both UACs permanently in order to deal enough damage to stand a chance. Result is as follows: The UACs jam and you are left on close distance with 2 weapons that will cook you and take about 5secs to recharge. Miss and you die, overheat and you die. Face a compareable mech without these problems (Hellbringer C) you die.

My Suggestion
2 x CLPL
2 x CUAC10

+ 1 HS and ecm

or

+ 1HS and 1 ton of armor

or

+ 2 HS

My Argument
The LPL have a high refire rate and thus enhance the aspect the UACs already have. Also do they produce less heat and allow you to keep your enemy under constant fire even if the uacs are jammed/overheated. Also do both weapons have about the same range and thus concentrate the entire firepower in a very specific field. The mech should thus also stay cooler since the LPLs produce somewhat less heat than the ERPPCS.

It's not true!!! Nooooooooooo!

I love the Mad Cat A just as it is, it's not much to heat manage (as long as you chain fire the PPCs and only slowly chain fire them while your UACs cool down).

Knock em once with a PPC bolt, fire the UACs and knock em more, let them cool while firing the other PPC bolt, resume with UACs apply coolant if you've been too greedy with the PPCs.  Rinse and Repeat.

Large Pulse Lasers just don't have the damage or knock of a ERPPC, I definitely wouldn't like the Mad Cat A changed.

[HAARP]

RAC Shiva:
Good AA, but the window of opportunity for the RACs to hit is to short for the spin-up time they have.
Therefore, replace it with the REAL Shiva Prime:

LBX20
4x LPL
1x ERSBL
and the usual assortment of free tons of heatsinks

Durable aero hunter, some punch to ground units aswell. Good allround fighter with the LBX doing burst damage and LPLs for sustained fire.

[HAARP]

Mad Cat Prime
.
.
.

You don't mess with the Timber Wolf. It's an excellent support unit, and one of the few variants that are actually close to the REAL variants.
If the minimum range for Clan LRMs would go this unit could have have the punch it deserves, but it's already effective the way it is.

Vulture Prime

Same goes here. You don't fapp with the beautiful real Prime variants, and this one sucks because it can't use the LRMs up close. It was always prone to overheating, but I agree that it has gotten a lot worse since 0.3.
Since the gauss Mad Dog gets ECM, 4 extra tons of ammo and even an SRM4, it is safe to assume that this variant could receive some magical new free tons aswell. Put the ECM back in and add a few heatsinks. That's enough.

Atlas A

I'd rather see it keep the LRMs for some long-range punch, But I wouldn't mind a pair of MRM10 either.

3x RAC5
2x MRM10
2x MPL
and some electronics is what I would like to see and would turn this variant into a brutal middle-to-close range brawler.

[dCK-Ad_Hominem]

Mad Cat A

This Variant Sucks
The Mech is a walking Achilles heel. The two CERPPCs it mounts deal nice damage on great distance but take too long to recharge and overheat the mech unnecessarily. In combination with the 2 CUAC10 this becomes even more critical since you will have to fire both UACs permanently in order to deal enough damage to stand a chance. Result is as follows: The UACs jam and you are left on close distance with 2 weapons that will cook you and take about 5secs to recharge. Miss and you die, overheat and you die. Face a compareable mech without these problems (Hellbringer C) you die.

My Suggestion
2 x CLPL
2 x CUAC10

+ 1 HS and ecm

or

+ 1HS and 1 ton of armor

or

+ 2 HS

My Argument
The LPL have a high refire rate and thus enhance the aspect the UACs already have. Also do they produce less heat and allow you to keep your enemy under constant fire even if the uacs are jammed/overheated. Also do both weapons have about the same range and thus concentrate the entire firepower in a very specific field. The mech should thus also stay cooler since the LPLs produce somewhat less heat than the ERPPCS.

It's not true!!! Nooooooooooo!

I love the Mad Cat A just as it is, it's not much to heat manage (as long as you chain fire the PPCs and only slowly chain fire them while your UACs cool down).

Knock em once with a PPC bolt, fire the UACs and knock em more, let them cool while firing the other PPC bolt, resume with UACs apply coolant if you've been too greedy with the PPCs.  Rinse and Repeat.

Large Pulse Lasers just don't have the damage or knock of a ERPPC, I definitely wouldn't like the Mad Cat A changed.

I'm sorry but what you say just blows my mind. How can I chain fire my weapons in slow succession and wait for them to cool down when fighting an assault mech?! I can't! This thing is very expensive and just does not make up for the money I spend on it. By the time the UACs are overheated it is a sitting duck. Yes everybody always says to wait for those things to cool down, but I just do not see the point in this. The UAC10 is supposed to be one of the most powerful weapon systems there is, so do the ppcs and when I mount two of each I should be able to at least severly cripple my enemy before having to make any kind of pause. I just don't see the combination of the 2 as a good configuration. LPLs would allow the mech to fire constantly. The lesser damage output is okay as far as I'm concerned. since the damage would also add up over time.

[(TLL) Heretic]

I can't agree, I've killed many Assaults using the UAC10s.

'Once, I remember well, I stepped out directly in front of an Atlas at about 250m, we traded fire, he missed most due to rocking from my weapons and I tore up his CT good in 1st salve, finishing him in 3 (with the occassional PPC to help) whilst only taking moderate damage.

'Remember joking with some-one who was in my team about it being a reverse "Big Al" moment.