Variant Replacement Discussion.

[SIL]

The only bushwhacker that needs reviewed and updated in my opinion is the prime.  It's trying to do too much, the A variant is actually quite good at fire support.  I wouldn't change that one and know quite a few pilots (myself included) that use it.

Bushwhacker Prime

This Variant SUCKS
The Bushwhacker is a medium dominance mech, low profile large armor not extremely fast.  It is designed for early game superiority of both armor and firepower when both are lacking.  The Bushwhacker is also one of the first brawler mechs that can take solid punishment, commonly able to even pose a threat to larger mechs on equal footing.

The Prime's Weapons:
    * 1 ERLBL
    * 1 UAC10
    * 2 MGuns
    * 2 LRM5

My Suggestion

2 LBL
2 UAC2
2 UAC5
LRM 10

My Argument
The Bushwhacker Prime is trying to do too much with this variant.  The A Variant is better fire support.  B Variant is a better brawler choice.  C Variant has better ranged weapons and more punch.  Thus the Prime fills no role except to attempt to be "Jack of all Trades."  This is a poor setup for such an early dominance mech.  The suggested configuration sports much more in long range support DIRECT fire and can aid with early anti-aircraft support fire as necessary, allowing it to pose a threat at range and aid against all target types.

[xInVicTuSx]

Mauler B

This Variant Sucks
The Mauler was meant to mostly be a ballistics mech, slapping on some ERPPCs involves unneeded heat problems better left to mechs like the Awesome. The Mguns and AC2s feel forced and the Mguns are redundant, 2 AC2s rather than 4 cuts down on their power and marginalizes them. The ELRM15s run out of ammo too quickly even with the ammo, even the Mauler Prime doesn't need ELRMs and that has longer range main weapons.

My Suggestion
x4 UAC5s
x2 LRM10s
x2 ERMBL
4 tons free ammo. BAP?

My Argument
The Mauler A fills the long range heavy hitter role already and does it better without being redundant with the Awesome. The Mauler lacks a medium range high DPS design. My experience with the UAC5s on the Huit(even if they are clan) tells me stacked Uac5s would rock. Optimum range would be 800-500 meters. I think this is better than stacking RAC5s on the mauler because those are more unwieldy, spread the damage, and require you to get too close, we already have a good close range brawler.  This would deal great damage to lights and mediums, and respectable constantly gnawing damage to the weakspot of a heavy at great range.

So with that I eagerly await your suggestions, lets squeeze as much potential out of these great mechs as we can!

Note: if the Mod wants to move this to suggestions area that is fine, but I figured it would be better here for more open discussion.

Obviously you have never actually used the Mauler B, and probably because of what is listed in the mech selection list. What is on the actual machine is so overweight it is ridiculous.

Mauler B actually has
2 ERPPCs
2 ELRM-15s
2 AC/2s
2 ULTRA AC/2s (Note: not Machine Guns)

By my calculations, this thing is at least 16 tons overweight. Comparing it to the standard Mauler you have. ERPPCs +2 tons over ER Large Lasers (+4 total). ELRM-15s are +5 tons over LRM-15s (+14 tons total), Ultra AC/2s are +1 ton over normal AC/2s (+16 tons total)

Woah, bizarre, I was staring at the wiki and didn't see the AC2s rather than the Mguns, somewhere in my mind is a dream of taking the Mauler B out and it having Mguns and I've been using it off and on at Thunder rift quite a lot lately... how weird... oh well, my point still stands and the AC2s must feel like Mguns then.  

[(TLL) Heretic]

Wow SIL, that's staggeringly oblivious to the tonnage limitations of a 55ton 'mech!

Here's a site you might like to check for weapon tonnage, rather than just post up dream machines with ignorant enthusiasm http://www.sarna.net

This site gives the CBT (what MWLL is supposed to be based on) values for any weapon that is cannon.

Your Bushy Prime:
2 Large Lasers (10tons)
2 UAC2 with 1 ton ammo each (16tons)
2 UAC5 with 1 ton ammo each (20tons)
LRM10 with 1 ton ammo (6 tons)

Total: 52 tons podspace

So your leaving 2 tons of 'mech for Heat sinks, armour, internal structure, reactor, gyro and engine as well as myomer muscle bundles and bearing in mind that the cockpit weighs at least 1ton.

And you tell me the Bushy A is "fine" based on what exactly?

[DFDelta]

Just trade the LRM5s and the mguns for a MRM10 on the shoulder and a SRM6 on the arm and everything is fine.

[SIL]

BAH, just noticed what I did, thanks for pointing it out. 

I was debating leaving the LRM 10 off there simply because I felt it was overweight, and there is only supposed to be 1 UAC5, not 2.

So:
2 LBL (10)
2 UAC2 (16)
1 UAC5(10)

That's still a bit overweight even at that.  Maybe changing the LBL down to Mediums would get the tonnage closer to correct.  That's what I get for altering Canon mechs    Sarna is blocked from work, but I already know the site 

[Profane Arbiter]

Bushy Prime


This Variant Sucks
This mech is all over the damn place and underpowered. Two pointless lrm5's and an ER large laser round out its long range arsenal, less firepower than an Osiris A. Even when the UAC10 can be brought to bear, leading the target with the UAC while putting your crosshairs right on target with the large laser, and working to not lose weapons lock for the lrms is very unwieldly. As a result, this juggling act between weapons with different projectile travel times and ranges usually means more misses, more times all the weapons can't be brought to bear simultaneously, and a failure to concentrate damage in one location on an opponent.

My Suggestion
x3 ERMBL
x1 ERLBL
x1 Guass Rifle
x1 tons free ammo
Eoptics
LAMS

My Argument
Without any other source for tonnage info I used Sarna. We dumped all the weapons systems other than the ERLBL and also dropped BAP along with 1 ton of ammo. This time around we've decided to focus on mid range direct damage with the prime variant.  A gauss rifle is mounted on the shoulder with the large laser on 1 arm and a pod with 3 ERMBL's on the other.

This elegant remodel not only improves the Bushy Prime's damage dealing capabilities, making it a worthy choice for the money, but consilidates its capabilities. While it shines best in mid to long range combat, its not completely out of its element at any range. Good weapons and armor make the new Bushy Prime well worth getting at the 70k rank. Comparing it to my usually Puma C, it's a tough choice. The Puma is faster, more stealthy, and even more focused on consistency of damage, while the Bushy, despite being slower and lacking stealthiness both in profile and electronics, does have more armor. While its weapon systems are also slightly less focused than the Puma's, it will likely do overall more damage.

[dCK-Ad_Hominem]

I can't agree, I've killed many Assaults using the UAC10s.

'Once, I remember well, I stepped out directly in front of an Atlas at about 250m, we traded fire, he missed most due to rocking from my weapons and I tore up his CT good in 1st salve, finishing him in 3 (with the occassional PPC to help) whilst only taking moderate damage.

'Remember joking with some-one who was in my team about it being a reverse "Big Al" moment.

I believe you did, but I just think that the chassis has too many weaknesses. For instance it feels like it has a ridiculous amount of armor and ergo dies too easily. It sure depends on what role you see this mech in. For me it is a mix between a brawler on the one hand and a medium range support/tower/hold this position -mech. As a brawler the C variant is absolut genius and should never be changed. Same applies for the prime version. I was able to cover one complete half on Frostbite in this thing and punish anyone trying to break through (though the kill potential could be a bit higher). The A variant however looks gorgeus on paper, but everytime I took it out having high hopes it disappointed me fundamentally. Trust me I know how to play the game, I just feel that this one needs a little work on it. Anyways it's just my opinion, not a doctrine .

Also I would like to support Haarp, don't fapp with the prime variants. Ever.

[snooggums]

Also I would like to support Haarp, don't fapp with the prime variants. Ever.

Clans have primes, IS has many variants, one of which is listed in a tech readout. The IS mechs should be titled with their variant number and have the "Prime" one simply be the main one from the book. As an example the original "prime" Atlas with the AC20, LRM20, SRM6 and 4 medium lasers is the ATLAS-D.

[SquareSphere }12thVR{]

Bushy Prime

If it needs to stay within 24 tons and the design philosophy of "well roundedness" with a mixture of direct/indirect, long/medium range weapons I'd choose the following.

1 ERLBL - 5 Tons
LBX 10 - 11 Tons
2 x LRM 5 - 4Tons
2 x ERMBL - 2 tons

For the 2 extra tons this config frees up, I would add 2 HS to help compensate for the added heat of the ERMBLs.

MGs in MWLL as of right now do almost nil damage to heavy armor making them mostly anti BA only.  Better off getting those ERMBL for better direct damage, the LBX would be more than enough to pick up the anti BA weapon role.

[xInVicTuSx]

I hesitate to mess with the bushy prime anymore than it has already been messed with, wait to see what the devs do with Mguns and LRM-5s first. I also agree the Madcat Prime is sacrosanct.

Time for my Atlas!

Atlas B

This Variant Sucks
A subpar Hgauss boat on an Assault! Woot. The Atlas gets knocked around too much to depend on this one shot poorly ranged weapon for its damage, 1 heatsink for the PPCs is bleh, Eoptics is pointless when your max range is 700m.  LRM10s are crappy when you have to get within 400m for the Hgauss to really be effective. No further backup weapons makes me sad panda. Let the Fafnir stop around with Hgauss, the Atlas has more important things todo. 

My Suggestion
Atlas B 'Dux'

Gauss Rifle
x2 MRM20
x3 ERMBL
ERLBL
NARC Beacon
Mgun

BAP,C3,AECM, 3 (DHS)* 2 tons free

My Argument
This is what an Atlas should look like boys. A command mech meant to march to the front line and provide as much support for his team and pain for his enemies as possible. It carries an MRM 20 in each side torso, while a Narc launcher is carried in its right torso along with a BAP system and a C3 computer housed in its left torso. On its left arm a Gauss rifle is gripped near its left fist while an Mgun is mounted below. On its right arm a pod of triple ERMBLs are mounted near the right fist while an ERLBL is mounted under it with 3 (Double*)Heatsinks mounted around them to tame the heat. All of these with an AECM unit mounted deep in the CT and two tons of cased ammo to boot.
The heatsinks deal with the heat well so long as the ERLBL is not constantly fired in conjunction with the MRM20s and the ERMBL give a moderate heat, good damage punch at close range whilst Gauss can reach out and touch someone cowering behind the lines. All of this with an Mgun prepared to spray and finish any BA which survives its lasers and MRMS. The NARC and C3 means you should be at the front lines dictating the battle to your support units and the two tons of ammo gives you further versatility in choosing your role.  Now go stand tall on the front lines.
 

*Note* I was easily able to build this with 3 double heatsinks which came default on the 3062 Atlas, in fact most all of the IS mechs were coming with DHS at this time and when I looked at Sarna it said "The benefits of doubled heat dissipation capacity usually outweigh the drawbacks and by 3058  almost every 'Mech model was equipped or retrofitted with double heat sinks." The clan versions were of course smaller but the IS had them too. Why are we stuck with crappy old single heatsinks like its 2950 on the IS side? Why not use double on the bigger mechs? :/

Thanatos Prime

This Variant Sucks
Ok, ok, I love CBT prime variants and I want most all of them to stay. But dude, this variant... so, so bad 
Sure you can stay in combat forever, but its going to take forever to do any damage, and the heat will start to become a problem while on the move, which is what you should be doing with the Thanny. When I look at the Thanatos I see bigass tough guy brawler mech, not halfass laser boat with an MRM tacked on. Come on guys, even the Bushwacker gets an LBX20...

My Suggestion
LBX20
MRM20
x2 MPL
GECM, JJs

My Argument
This is strict tonnage rules but you have to stuff the the LBX20 due to lack of crits into the Right arm and torso, I want an LBX20 on this mech, the bushy B can exist with a bit of hand waving so an LBX Than should definitely exist. This build makes sense for this mech and it was basically what used to be on this mech before .3 and it only sucked because the LBX20 sucked, now that LBX20 is good the LBX gets dropped and surprise surprise, worthless Thanatos. 

[Zakatak]

Variant B Hawkmoth

Why it sucks
The RAC5 is a bad weapon if you cannot hit your target, quite simply. The Moth is not a very stable firing platform so keeping your crosshair on a target while being evasive is difficult. The LRM10 version is better, yes, better close up then the RAC version.

Setup
2x DualSSRM4
1x TAG Laser
GECM, C3


Why?
This is the... err... brawler Hawkmoth, and also the stealth variant. Float where the enemies can't see or detect you and use you TAG laser. Its also good for circle strafing big mechs and wearing them down with the SRM's.

[RepleX-TA]

Same goes here. You don't fapp with the beautiful real Prime variants

True, but it will be great to use not only prime variants but all others and name them as they are in CBT. This will cut many rediculous variant like 6ERLL Nova Cat were. Now it is 5ERLL JJ but real Nova Cat A is 4ERLL JJ.

[Colonel Drego]

Variant B Hawkmoth

Why it sucks
The RAC5 is a bad weapon if you cannot hit your target, quite simply. The Moth is not a very stable firing platform so keeping your crosshair on a target while being evasive is difficult. The LRM10 version is better, yes, better close up then the RAC version.

Setup
2x DualSSRM4
1x TAG Laser
GECM, C3


Why?
This is the... err... brawler Hawkmoth, and also the stealth variant. Float where the enemies can't see or detect you and use you TAG laser. Its also good for circle strafing big mechs and wearing them down with the SRM's.

You complain about not being able to keep the RAC on target, and then put a TAG laser on it? What? 

[Taemien]

Atlas A

THIS VARIANT SUCKS

The Atlas A goes beyond being useless. It is so useless, in fact, that it should be classified as "HURRRRR". It's the short bus of Atlases (Atlai?).

Let's take a look at the current set-up, shall we?

1xRAC5
2xRAC2
2xMBL
2xLRM10
0 Heat Sinks
5 Tons free


My Argument
Ick. This is an Assault mech? Really? You coulda fooled me. The LRMs suggest it's a long-range support mech, yet 2xLRM10s won't put a dent in anything at a noticeable rate. The RAC combination is terrible; RAC2s are anti-air and don't overheat at the same speed as the RAC5. Are they supposed to fend off aircraft? Because that RAC combination won't scare off a Shiva, probably even a Sulla. 2xMBL are also equally useless.

Trying to take out other mechs with this weapon combination is difficult at best. You have to constantly keep fire on a target, in a slow, lumbering Atlas, to even hope that you damage it. No one takes this variant out, and anyone who has tried has met a quick death at the hands of variants that actually have a role.

My suggestion

Drop the RAC2s and the MBLs. Replace with additional RAC5s. Remove the LRMs and replace them with MRMs or SSRMs, thus turning this Atlas into a brawler variant that can double as decent AA. It ends up looking like this:

3xRAC5
2xUAC5
2xDual SSRM6 OR 1xMRM40

I have no idea of tonnage for every weapon in the game, but on paper this seems like a more formidable mech in combat.

I agree that this variant sucks, but what I would rather see is the classic Atlas configuration instead.

1xAC20
4xMBL
1xSRM6
1xLRM20 (or 2xLRM10 if you can't change that)

Could even spice up the 4 MBL to ER if needed. The price would definitely be lower.

[SIL]

You complain about not being able to keep the RAC on target, and then put a TAG laser on it? What? 

I was just thinking the same thing.  I could see a NARC system on it, but TAG while saying the RAC is difficult to keep on target??

Any changes to improve the Thanatos in general have my seal of approval, I've removed that mech from my arsenal.  It just doesn't have the necessary cans of whoopass to do anything productive compared to other similar CBill mechs.

Lastly, Atlas suggestions look nice.  I'm in favor of getting a few more MRMs out there over LRMs, require more skill and better for brawlers to use.  I can't say I understand the idea behind an assault mech with a NARC system though.  If you're going to focus on NARC, use a light or an ASF/VTOL.