Author Topic: Variant Replacement Discussion.  (Read 6564 times)

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Offline Digital Communist

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Re: Variant Replacement Discussion.
« Reply #180 on: August 21, 2010, 03:36:37 PM »
Replace the LRM5 on the iPoke Uziel for Jump Jets.

Gah, the poptarter's dream... I think it's still possible for it to become a nuisance with the addition of JJ's, even with only Mguns to back it up.  Maybe bump the LRM's up to a 10 or 15?

It would barely be a nuisance. Light Gauss are pathetically weak, and the JJ would really help it get to good perches that it can't reach right now.

Offline HAARP

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Re: Variant Replacement Discussion.
« Reply #181 on: August 21, 2010, 08:12:05 PM »
The H.Gauss is mounted to the Right Arm for that variant of the Atlas.
 
W-What? I don't follow you. It's on the hip isn't it? Where would the hip assault mount be in your list??

Quote
Depending on the programmatic slot type parameters, some missile bays may require a weapon assignment, whereas others allow it to be optional.  An example of this is the Cougar B, which has "empty" missile hardpoints.
 
For some variants, it would look fairly unbalanced/silly to have slots allowed to be empty.  What would a Madcat look like without weapons mounted on its arms?  These are considerations that we are including in the development of our build rules and subsequent MechLab implementation.
I don't see the reason for this at all. I agree that the arms of a Timber Wolf should have weapons in them, but why missile tubes? It should be easy to just put a metal plate on top of them (I can give you screenshots of how AT1 does it if you like, it does look very good). Why restrict the freedom to remove missiles from your mech design, but only for some mechs? The Mad Dog (apprently) and Cougar still have that freedom, so what makes them special? Especially the Gauss Mad Dog looks very strange with all those tubes in the side torso, but it gets to keep that freedom?

I see that you have problems with empty missile tubes looking strange, but how is that any worse than people putting SRM2 into the ten-tube launchers on the Atlas chest? You know that it will happen. Or do you want to restrict it to 10-tube launchers, i.e. LRM/MRM10? This would reduce the restrict that variant even more though.

Offline Digital Communist

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Re: Variant Replacement Discussion.
« Reply #182 on: August 21, 2010, 10:52:05 PM »
The H.Gauss is mounted to the Right Arm for that variant of the Atlas.
 
W-What? I don't follow you. It's on the hip isn't it? Where would the hip assault mount be in your list??

Quote
Depending on the programmatic slot type parameters, some missile bays may require a weapon assignment, whereas others allow it to be optional.  An example of this is the Cougar B, which has "empty" missile hardpoints.
 
For some variants, it would look fairly unbalanced/silly to have slots allowed to be empty.  What would a Madcat look like without weapons mounted on its arms?  These are considerations that we are including in the development of our build rules and subsequent MechLab implementation.
I don't see the reason for this at all. I agree that the arms of a Timber Wolf should have weapons in them, but why missile tubes? It should be easy to just put a metal plate on top of them (I can give you screenshots of how AT1 does it if you like, it does look very good). Why restrict the freedom to remove missiles from your mech design, but only for some mechs? The Mad Dog (apprently) and Cougar still have that freedom, so what makes them special? Especially the Gauss Mad Dog looks very strange with all those tubes in the side torso, but it gets to keep that freedom?

I see that you have problems with empty missile tubes looking strange, but how is that any worse than people putting SRM2 into the ten-tube launchers on the Atlas chest? You know that it will happen. Or do you want to restrict it to 10-tube launchers, i.e. LRM/MRM10? This would reduce the restrict that variant even more though.

Timber Wolf/Madcat and the Catapult both can also change out their missile packs for beam weapons, it seems like a double standard to me. I cringe whenever I see the Madcat with the ERMBL on its shoulder.

Offline Leeko

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Re: Variant Replacement Discussion.
« Reply #183 on: August 22, 2010, 01:46:50 AM »
Timber Wolf/Madcat and the Catapult both can also change out their missile packs for beam weapons, it seems like a double standard to me. I cringe whenever I see the Madcat with the ERMBL on its shoulder.

First time I saw the laser boat Timby I did a double take and thought "Poor mech... they made you into a hunchback...  :'(" (edit: errr hunchback like a guy born with a birth defect not like the mech)

But after using it I didn't really care. I'd rather go the route of AT1. Gauss Mad Dog with a dinky SRM, for example, is just silly. It's completely superfluous, except maybe providing meager anti-BA fire for people who lack perfect aim with Gauss Rifles, and one might argue that even this use is irrelevant given that MWLL is supposed to be a team game. Furthermore auto-buy, for some inane reason, picks the SRM over the Gauss Rifles. A minor annoyance, but an annoyance nonetheless. Interestingly however, the canon Timber Wolf variants on Sarna all have missiles, a trait not shared by the Mad Dog.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 06:20:32 AM by Leeko »
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Offline KSerge83

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Re: Variant Replacement Discussion.
« Reply #184 on: August 22, 2010, 02:20:33 AM »
Auto-buy initially refills any weapons with ammo that's been spent, after that, subsequent presses will buy ammo for the weapon (not the group) selected. As long as you have the gauss selected, auto-buy will buy gauss ammo. This is the case for all vehicles and mechs as of 0.3.2 .

The irony of the statement I'm about to make is that I never use them. By them, of course, I'm referring to the "Prime" variants of most of the mechs currently in the game. This is by no means a request that they be changed in any way, because I LOVE that such an option exists in the game. This perfectly allows for the ability to host "prime only" games, where the unique characteristics of each mech's prime loadout really stand out. Most, if not all, the prime variants were designed to only marginally specialize in any particular role. The Madcat was feared on the battlefield because it was great at EVERYTHING, with a phenomenal balance of long range, medium range, and close range offensive capabilities.

If there's one moment that really put into perspective for me the effect of the "prime" variant, it would be one of the clan trials I played in MW2. Being a game where boating was VERY easy due to the simple customization system (not their fault, the game was really ahead of it's time), when I had to partake in this trial in a mech with a variant suited to no particular task, it really made me appreciate each individual weapon, and their harmonizing as a variant. It was also, ironically, one of the most difficult trials in the game, as the optional second part of the trial pits you against, I believe, a gargoyle, or a warhawk... in a kit fox (uller). Suddenly, weapons that I would not have been caught dead using in any other place were vital to my survival, and they served their purposes admirably.

I realize this seems like a very trivial reason to retain the primes as they are, but the way I see it, the primes should stay as "pure" to their original blueprints as possible. There are 3 variants of each mech that the dev team can customize to suit the game and the players, and the upcoming mechlab will even further allow for "have it your way" mech design. Keep the pure mech variants pure!
I want more heavy gauss in my life.

Offline Leeko

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Re: Variant Replacement Discussion.
« Reply #185 on: August 22, 2010, 06:19:58 AM »
Auto-buy initially refills any weapons with ammo that's been spent, after that, subsequent presses will buy ammo for the weapon (not the group) selected. As long as you have the gauss selected, auto-buy will buy gauss ammo. This is the case for all vehicles and mechs as of 0.3.2 .

That might explain a few things... I haven't used autobuy since 0.3.0 :o

As to the rest of your post though, a jack of all trades Mech is extremely viable in the situation you mention because of the nature of duels. If your opponent is in an asset based entirely on energy weapons such as the aforementioned Warhawk, for example, and you have any ballistic (read: low heat) weapons you'll end up having a serious advantage, either because he overheats or because he is forced to manage his heat very carefully. You possess a hard counter to his weaponry, just not to the same degree as something based entirely around ballistic weapons. In a game like MWLL though, sad as it is to say, these configurations become much less useful. Both sides are guaranteed to have (or have access to) specialized hard counters to each other's tactics, and victory is in utilizing them... LT on Marshes notwithstanding (lol :P). Don't get me wrong though, generalized variants do have a place, they just aren't especially important and a battle where one side lacks them won't necessarily have a predetermined outcome. I'm all for preserving the CBT spirit, the original blueprints, however you want to put it, but I'd like to see Primes (edit: generalized Primes like the Timber Wolf and Bushy) be more useful.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 04:46:08 PM by Leeko »
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Offline xInVicTuSx

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Re: Variant Replacement Discussion.
« Reply #186 on: August 22, 2010, 09:08:02 AM »
Most of the Primes ARE useful, the Osiris, Raven, Uziel, Warhammer, Mauler, Awesome all have great Primes.
But then you look at bad primes, Bushwacker, Thanatos, Atlas come to mind.
I would rate the Owens, Catapult, and Hollander in between because the Primes themselves are even specialized.
The more I play the more I realize I wouldnt be caught dead in any other vairant than the Prime on the Uziel, Warhammer, or Osiris.
And those three can only get better in the future, the Osiris could get more armor, and more lasers, the Uziel and Warhammer better PPC behavior and they could all benefit from DHS, in fact the Uziel and Osiris were built around them.
I'm frankly amazed at the Warhammer, that is some solid old skool tech right there, you could mount Dropship railguns on that thing and there would still be critspace and heat capacity left for a few MBL. :P

The poster child for bad jack of all trades prime performance is the Bushwacker, look how much it has been buffed up already and it still stinks. Then there is the Thanatos, its Prime is ok, but the others are better.
One thing I have found is that particularly with the Thanatos variants, they are good against certain weight classes, you should not think of a Heavy mech as automatic counter to another Heavy mech, and you should also not think of it as automatically good at killing lights either.

For instance, the Thanatos B, great at cutting down light mechs from afar but having the speed and JJs to dance with them if they get close, but the firepower is simply insufficient vs heavies and even mediums. Now take the Thanatos C completely opposite, great at running circles around heavies with MASC and has close rock em sock em weapons and killer flamers, but try catching a light mech with any of those and you will find it to be a nightmare.
Now take the Thanatos Prime, has the lasers of the B but less of them, and the harder to aim punch of the C in the MRM.
It is decent vs both, but great vs neither, while being quite good at combating enemy medium mechs, the problem is this game tends to go in waves, ALL LIGHTs... until... ALL HEAVIES.

And always always always remember, once we start getting 4 novacats and 2 madcats onto the field, say night night to balance, its officially a joke trying to balance jack of all trades workhorse mechs against a couple of those superboats, once the game gets to that stage, fun seems to drop off for me much of the time.
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