AC Issues?

[Straylight]

Evening all,

Some of you've probably seen me around in-game for a bit now, but I figured it was far past time I joined the community, rather than just lobbed LRMs at it.

Anyway, since the last hotfix, I've noticed a few funny things regarding ACs, foremost that they seem to overheat very quickly now. The AC10s on the Warhammer B seem to be the worst for this, overheating after only four or five rounds for me. I'm mostly curious if this is intentional or just a value that got tweaked too much in the last patch.

I'm also curious about the function of LBX ACs in-game. They seem to have a prohibitively high recycle time for a relatively unimpressive damage return that doesn't at all mirror what I remember from CBT. The Beatstick is able to compensate for this with sheer weight of fire, but other applications of LBX series guns either could or do have more effective variants mounting standard or ultra autocannons (Partisan being the most obvious here. The RAC variant is a useful AAA platform, but the LBX version can't hit an Awesome's backside at the ranges flak units typically engage at). Even with the Beatstick, it still feels like it'd lose a fight against a Mauler C at close range.

So, thoughts of the community? Thought of the devs?

[Dragonlord]

I havent paid much attention to the changes to these details, but I have to agree about the AC10 overheating you mention.
Not only do they overheat after, in my opinion, far too few shots, but once they do overheat, they take an overly long time to cool down again.
The AC10 are pretty much the primary weapon of the Warhammer B, making it the worst possible choice, again in my opinion, to take out.
The few times I have taken it out, I cant even take out a light mech as the few shots I do get off are not enough to kill it, and by the time the guns are ready to fire again it only takes 1-2 shots before I'm dead.
If you ask me, taking any mech which has the U/AC10 as primary weapon is a death sentence, as the remaining weapons are not enough by far to keep up with the output of most other mechs.

As for the LBX guns, I too feel their damage output is on the low side.
The LBX is based on the concept of the shotgun.
"In MWLL, the Lubalin Ballistics-X AutoCannon, or LBX, is essentially a Mech-sized shotgun." thats a quote from the MWLL wiki.

I never played CBT, so cant say anything about that, but I remember the LBX from MW 3 and 4 and they did more damage there than want I feel they do here.
I wanted to check the damage compared to other ballistic weapons in MWLL, unfortunately there dont seem to be any available fro the LBX cannons yet, but then again I dont think the wiki site are complete yet so some things are bound to be missing.

My impression is that you need at least 2 LBX 10 or 20 to be able to do any reasonable damage.
Taking the Bushwacker with the LBX20 dont quite seem to cut it damage wise.
When in the Puma B I cant seem to determine if its the PPC or the LBX10 that does the most damage, though it feels to me like its the PPC even though I would have thought it should be the LBX10.

[HAARP]

In my opinion it's quite the contrary. LBX are the only really useful ACs now, with short travel time, moderate range and 5x damage against everything with wings.
AC/UACs on the other hand fire very slow projectiles that often miss either due to being slow, or the ever-so-present lag inherent with slow projectiles.

[xInVicTuSx]

No offense but I think you just need more time with most of them.
The Uac10 on the Bushwacker feels a tad weak sometimes because you have to hit accurately for so many shots to pile up damage it is extremely difficult to use. The AC10s are worse because they do indeed heat up fast, but that is representing their slower fire rate under the UAC10.
LBX5 are for lights and AA, they do well against those, waste of time to hit an assault with it really.
The LBX5 partisan is way better AA than the other variants vs Vtols and is pretty good vs Sullas too.
I killed a Thanatos in my LBX20 Bushwacker yesterday in a two on one, my first shot hit him in the Right Torso so I concentrated all my shots there and killed him, took about 3 shots plus my SSRMs and SPL. Plus legging a SCAT with the LBX20 on that thing is one of the best ways to fight scats midgame.
As for the Beatstick vs Mauler c, in the same game I beat one with my Beatstick but just barely, its a pretty even fight as both are extremely nasty, if you get the jump on him and hit his cockpit though that should reduce the needed volleys to 2 and you should win pretty easy then.

At this point the only really odd behavior I find with ACs is the speed at which AC20s and UAC20s in particular heat the mech up. It's hard to sustain fire with them in any sort of hot environment because they heat your reactor so much its dangerous to keep firing them even though the weapon itself is cool and ready.

[Profane Arbiter]

In my opinion it's quite the contrary. LBX are the only really useful ACs now, with short travel time, moderate range and 5x damage against everything with wings.
AC/UACs on the other hand fire very slow projectiles that often miss either due to being slow, or the ever-so-present lag inherent with slow projectiles.

I gotta disagree. Even without UACs, the AC20 demolisher is a monster, and I'll often cockpit a mech before destroying the vehicle.

[Dragonlord]

My biggest problem with the AC and UAC 10 and 20 are hit detection.
The other day I was shooting with an AC10 at a stationary mech.
Only every 3rd shot did I hear the hit sounds, and I'm willing to bet even fewer was detected for hits.
I fired about 20 rounds at it and barely managed to get it orange.
On my screen it looks like the shots hit, but they are not registered with the server leaving the enemy to pound me to a pulp while I'm barely scratching his paint.

I have played allot with both U/AC and LBX cannons, and my opinion on the matter stands.
but I prefer to avoid the U/AC 10/20 due to the lack of hit detection, something which has been said before on numerous occasions.
And dont say its due to lag, it dont matter if me and my opponent has a ping of less then 50 or over 200, the hit detection is the same no matter what. Sometimes its even worse with lower pings than higher.

[xInVicTuSx]

In my opinion it's quite the contrary. LBX are the only really useful ACs now, with short travel time, moderate range and 5x damage against everything with wings.
AC/UACs on the other hand fire very slow projectiles that often miss either due to being slow, or the ever-so-present lag inherent with slow projectiles.

I gotta disagree. Even without UACs, the AC20 demolisher is a monster, and I'll often cockpit a mech before destroying the vehicle.

Agreed, I've taken 4 on 1 and won before (1 heavy, 2 mediums, 1 light) with the AC20 demo, but the LBX20 demo has trouble even vs one, he does have a point with the LBX20 having a very slow refire rate. It is an interesting trade off between single punch and damage over time, it is too bad LBX cannot literally knock someones torso twist ajar and slap them around, that would solve the problem right quick but that may not be an option. Right now the LBX is a great weapon on a fast unit like the Thanatos or Loki, but suffers on a slow one because once you've fired it you have to wait a long time with little or no damage being dealt in between while you take punishment from the other side. The AC20 is far more versatile than the LBX20 right now that is for sure.

I would support a TINY quickening of LBX20 reload, mostly because you hardly ever get to fire all 12 rounds if you're in head to head combat. Combat just does not last long enough to get that many shots off with it where as you can chew through AC20 ammo real quick if you're not careful. Be careful though with such a tweak though , the LBX20 has great power and creates almost no heat.

@Dragonlord: I can't lie, I've shared your experiences many times, hit detection hurts those weapons plain and simple.

[Snowball]

Random tip: Do you have 2 (U)AC/10's?  Try chainfiring them and see how it performs.

[xInVicTuSx]

Random tip: Do you have 2 (U)AC/10's?  Try chainfiring them and see how it performs.

It would stretch out the DPS nicely to make certain they don't overheat, but that just increases the demand on landing every shot with perfection even more.

[HAARP]

Random tip: Do you have 2 (U)AC/10's?  Try chainfiring them and see how it performs.

Yeah. It feels awesome doing that. I once took down a pristine Atlas with a Cheaphammer that way only to have some retard Gauss Kitfox deal the finishing blow...
But anything faster than an Atlas will be difficult to hit.

[dsi1]

The LBX20 in my experience is not UP, my proof is the Shadowcat B.

The ability to sneak behind the enemy lines in total radar stealth, then demolish the enemy LRM boats in a few shots is great, not to mention running through the front lines and picking the weakest mech you see and blasting his front or back torso off in 3 or so volleys is amazing. But the best thing is the ability to function as AA, if all pellets(?) hit you've pretty much guaranteed that the aircraft is going down, or at least retreating. Not to mention that it is relatively cheap, with some donations from your teammates you can be stomping Ullers and Osirises in the first minute. (Or Cougars depending on the map *ahem*sandblasted*ahem* {though I had a really good match earlier today, lots of brawlers met in the valley, 'twas fun})

In my experience chain firing ACs doesn't work, they still fire at the same time. I get around it by changing one of the guns to group 2 though.

Got to agree about the AC20 Demolisher, one of the guys who can actually suffer tanks right now (forget your name sorry!) is amazing in it, horrible to fight against.

[xInVicTuSx]

The LBX20 in my experience is not UP, my proof is the Shadowcat B.

Correct, It is not UP, but it is unwieldy on large mechs, your experience confirms what I said about it,

Right now the LBX is a great weapon on a fast unit like the Thanatos or Loki, but suffers on a slow one because once you've fired it you have to wait a long time with little or no damage being dealt in between while you take punishment from the other side.

The scat is even more maneuverable than the Loki or Thanatos so the advantage would be increased even more.

[zombat]

The main reason LBX below 20 are crap is because they all have the exact same recycle time


Chainfired double UAC10 will tear most mechs apart in seconds, standard AC10 is a bit on the shite side though. Overheat too quick and lack any real damage potential

[zombat]

Okay, got myself onto a ToS server and did some testing.

UAC10:
Overheats after 4.5 sec, firing 12 rounds
Cooldowns:
-Unjam: 10.1
-Overheat to cold: 15
-4.9 sec after 11 round burst
Will destory a Warhammer B after 52 hits to the CT


Clan UAC10:
Overheats after 4.4 sec, firing 12 rounds
Cooldowns:
-Unjam: 10.2
-Overheat to cold: 15
-4.8 sec after 11 round burst
Will destory a Warhammer B after 52 hits to the CT


AC10:
Overheats after 4.3 seconds firing only 6 rounds
Cooldowns:
-Unjam: 2.4 sec
-Overheat to cold: 8 sec
-4.5 sec after 5 round burst
Will destroy a Warhammer B after 49 hits to the CT



So yeah, standard AC10 overheats twice as fast, at half the firing rate as UAC10 for the whopping bonus of 6% more damage per shot.

And for some reason Clan UAC10 is identicle to IS UAC10, aren't Clan autocannons meant to be inferior to IS ones?

[KingLeerUK]

Now factor in the C-Bill cost:
 
AC10  6000
UAC10 12500
CUAC10 13500
 
Does it make sense now?