Battletech concepts that don't work in MWLL

[Brainwright]

As the topic states, there are certain concepts in Battletech that don't work in MWLL.  First and foremost, Battletech has a much greater strategic element, where each side can deploy varying numbers of assets of varying qualities.   MWLL, however, can only have finite number of players and those players must be split evenly between teams.  All their actions are purely in the tactical sense, in that the sides are positioned before the battle starts, and they must deal with the resources at hand.  So there are a few ideas we should probably toss aside.

First off, Clan tech is vastly superior to IS tech : Truthfully, higher price isn't a great deterrent when money is technically unlimited.  In Solaris Arena, that is much like what we have.  So an accurate representation of the price along with the power of Clan mechs isn't an exceptionally good mechanic for balancing them, especially if just getting two can smash all challengers.

Double Heat Sinks vs Single Heat Sinks : The truth is that every mech can use double heat sinks.  Every mech should use double heat sinks because it is the latest and greatest,  the competitive technology.  To not use them is simply foolish.  The only reason you should do otherwise is if you wanted to field cheap, "bigger guns," with less favorable long-term performance against mechs that are using the latest technology.  That should be where the IS advantage lies, the ability to field heavier mechs at less cost, but still have a few cutting edge options available to them.

Standard Autocannons : LBX and Ultra autocannons are simply superior in every respect.  Standard autocannons should, again, only be deployed as cheap alternatives when big guns are needed in a pinch.  Their performance should be lower than that of LBX and Ultra autocannons, as those fit the new standard of technology.

Anyone have other concepts they'd like to talk about?  Anyone wish to dispute what I've said here?

[~SJ~ Wolf]

As the topic states, there are certain concepts in Battletech that don't work in MWLL.  First and foremost, Battletech has a much greater strategic element, where each side can deploy varying numbers of assets of varying qualities.   MWLL, however, can only have finite number of players and those players must be split evenly between teams.  All their actions are purely in the tactical sense, in that the sides are positioned before the battle starts, and they must deal with the resources at hand.  So there are a few ideas we should probably toss aside.

First off, Clan tech is vastly superior to IS tech : Truthfully, higher price isn't a great deterrent when money is technically unlimited.  In Solaris Arena, that is much like what we have.  So an accurate representation of the price along with the power of Clan mechs isn't an exceptionally good mechanic for balancing them, especially if just getting two can smash all challengers.

Double Heat Sinks vs Single Heat Sinks : The truth is that every mech can use double heat sinks.  Every mech should use double heat sinks because it is the latest and greatest,  the competitive technology.  To not use them is simply foolish.  The only reason you should do otherwise is if you wanted to field cheap, "bigger guns," with less favorable long-term performance against mechs that are using the latest technology.  That should be where the IS advantage lies, the ability to field heavier mechs at less cost, but still have a few cutting edge options available to them.

Standard Autocannons : LBX and Ultra autocannons are simply superior in every respect.  Standard autocannons should, again, only be deployed as cheap alternatives when big guns are needed in a pinch.  Their performance should be lower than that of LBX and Ultra autocannons, as those fit the new standard of technology.

Anyone have other concepts they'd like to talk about?  Anyone wish to dispute what I've said here?

If you want to play a homogenized watered down Mechwarrior it's already been made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MechAssault

[CharlesBronson]

I don't think any of his comments fit into the mold of mech assault...

Many of the things that make battletech battletech are nigh impossible to port to a real time simulator, its just the nature of the beast.  So work arounds must be made to facilitate many of these nuances (Or they must be ignored all together).  It is also important to keep in mind that solaris arena is not the end all be all of game modes for this mod.  It is hard to know exactly how all the different assets will come in to play in the different game modes that will become available.

Now that doesn't mean that any of these things shouldn't be up for discussion.  I fear the disparity between IS and Clan tech because I agree that money isn't proving to be a proper balance.  And this should not be interpretted the wrong way.  Clan equipment should be superior to IS in most ways.  Quantity and variety however should favor the IS, but that's hard to shoehorn into a sim like this.  What creative ways can we work around this?

To add my own concept that doesn't work in MWLL, and not just them but sim genre battletech all together is Heat Management.  It just doesn't FEEL as important as it should.  I always thought of high heat weapons as having heat as ammo.  I got one Gauss round left, should I take the shot now?  What if I miss?  Maybe I should hold on to it just in case.... The same thing could be said about a ERPPC in battletech.  If I fire this PPC bolt, I might not be able to jumpjet out of here to dodge his return fire.  Every shot needs to be accounted for, at least that's what I think. 

Don't look at me for answers though, I have pondered long and hard over this problem without getting a truly valid solution to come to mind.  My best Idea so far was less heat per shot, but much much slower cool down time.  So basically the heat adds up and stays up.  Possibly switching heat sinks from the role of cooling a mech to reducing the heat produced from each shot or masc, or jj use.  I know it seems backwards, but it would keep the heatsinks relevance and importance up while still keeping the concept of heat management intact.

[Cujo]

To add my own concept that doesn't work in MWLL, and not just them but sim genre battletech all together is Heat Management.  It just doesn't FEEL as important as it should.  I always thought of high heat weapons as having heat as ammo.  I got one Gauss round left, should I take the shot now?  What if I miss?  Maybe I should hold on to it just in case.... The same thing could be said about a ERPPC in battletech.  If I fire this PPC bolt, I might not be able to jumpjet out of here to dodge his return fire.  Every shot needs to be accounted for, at least that's what I think. 

Have you used the Madcat A?

[[MPB]OM_Sannyasi]

lots of tanks fail design wise also. you would have cockpits and gun turrets smashing into the ground if you went over even a little hill on some of them

[CharlesBronson]

Yes, why?

[Cujo]

because in the MadCat A when you run out of coolant you have to start thinking about when you're gunna shoot those ERPPCs because you heat up so much.

[CharlesBronson]

because in the MadCat A when you run out of coolant you have to start thinking about when you're gunna shoot those ERPPCs because you heat up so much.

Oh ok, I understand your point.  That is very true.  I would like to see that in almost if not every mech though.

[Cujo]

you mean every energy weapon heavy mech.

[Shakes]

you mean every energy weapon heavy mech that opts to not balance their weapon requirements with enough heat sinks.

i think for new players sake we really do need to keep a couple of easy to use laser boat variants around. obiviously they shouldnt have the same potential damage output.

[HAARP]

Clan tech is and always should be superior. There are other ways to balance it and achieve asymmetric gameplay, but it's not easy to do.

For instance, only IS have C3 systems. So instead of going "ololol same techs for both factions", let's take it away from Clan mechs. Give them better sensor range or something to compensate slightly.

Clan weapons kicking ass? That's fine, cause they usually don't take much ammo with them as they expect short, decisive battles (which was their undoing against the IS on Tukayyid)
But MWLL: ololol, ammo per ton x2.5 (LBX20). So even someone who only takes a single ton of ammo (like Clan mechs often do) has decent staying power. The Mk2 for instance only has 8 shots (1t) for each Gauss (which got upgraded to 10 in MWLL. The disparity isn't as bad, but it does make a difference.)

Even money could make a difference if we had more disparity between Clan and IS machines. It's not a good solution on its own, but it can contribute to balance.

Just to give some ideas. Asymmetric gameplay IS a bitch to balance, but it's worth it imo.


Double heatsinks vs single heatsinks shouldn't be a question. Nobody in their right mind would use single heatsinks after the Clan invasion, except if the refit is too expensive. I've encountered VERY few designs that need single sinks due to the double sink's bulk (and I make a LOT of mech designs/play around with Heavy Metal almost every day)

Single heatsinks would make sense if we ever were to do 3025 games.


LBX/UAC vs ACs? I basically agree. But there is one point: Only the normal ACs can fire special munitions (high-precision ammo, armor piercing ammo, flak ammo and a few others)

[xInVicTuSx]

CBT
Novacat Prime BV is 156% the value of the Awesome prime BV.
MWLL
It is 116% the value.

IS vs Clan tech really only needs two things to work as has been said, correct pricing and not mixing the techs, giving IS tech to Clan and disallowing DHS to IS is good game when it comes to balancing.

[zombat]

because in the MadCat A when you run out of coolant you have to start thinking about when you're gunna shoot those ERPPCs because you heat up so much.

Thats only because it doesn't have a stupid number of heat sinks, once you get about 14SHS/7DHS you barely have to consider even using coolant
With the novacat C I can fire 2 shots, wait 5 seconds, fire second pair, wait 5 seconds, and only have slightly more heat than when i started

[-SM-SUCKER]

A simple balancing idea is to change the team ratio from 1:1 to 2:1 or 5:2 or similar. Meaning that the Clanners are always outnumbered. I would definitely like to see this somewhere in the future.

[dCK-Ad_Hominem]

basically +1 to what Haarp said.

Also, imo, CBT =|= Mechwarrior.