Sa_Urban_Jungle 20:00 GMT 18/08 on Huntress

[(TLL)Xermalk]

To help Salvatoris get some gameplay feedback on his new Urban map, were trying to get enough players on the huntress server for a 10v10.
All able pilots are welcome to join in.

The game session will be at 20:00 GMT on the Huntress server.

If you dont have the map yet pm Salvatoris for a download link.

[Profane Arbiter]

Any reason you can't just post the link?

[HAARP]

Any reason you can't just post the link?

I also don't mind you guys giving the download link to other members of the MWLL beta community... the map is just not to a stage of development where I want to post a download link on open forums.

[Salvatoris]

I might be a little late, but I'll try to make it.  I think that is 2 pm for me, and I have to take my son to the doctor at 1.  I'll look for you guys when we get back.

I do have reasons for not posting a download link, that I don't really want to go in to detail on.  If you would like to help test the map, just send me a PM and I'll hook you up.

[Snowball]

I've got to say, that was a giant heap of fun.  The couple of games we played were just tremendous parties basically, what with all the shenanigans, crazy starts, and general insanity.

Some observations:
1). For SA, the two center hangars are too close, so most of the map doesn't get explored (you probably know this already).

2). Nearly every asset is tremendously usable, except for LT's and LRM-heavy mechs.  There's really no problem with this, as the map design makes it pretty obvious that such weapons wouldn't be super effective.  Regardless of that though, the unit balance feels really solid.

3). Definitely keep aeros.  While they do have a decent advantage on this map, it also demands competent piloting, and I feel that a couple dedicated AA units would be able to handle a decent amount of aeros fine.

4). The map is gorgeous, I can't emphasize this enough.  Wonderful job you and your son have done.  I also get solid fps nearly the whole time, even in heavy 10v10 action, which quite impressed me.

5). The 3d aspect of the map is a bit under-emphasized (though this might have more to do with our engagement area).  The tall buildings are nice and atmospheric, but there's really no way for mechs to interact with them other than moving around them.  Other than the elevated highway, the rest of the map is relatively flat, and while this does give a wonderful impression of being in the bowels of a great city, it also gets a little stale to be fighting at the same elevation the whole time.

6). Consider sprinkling dedicated BA spawn areas around the map, as even with APC's, deployment time can be a bit long (as the map is gigantic).

7). Kinda goes with #5, but maybe consider making ramps of some sort that would make it easier for mechs/vehicles to deploy at different height levels around the map, maybe even up to the roofs of some lower buildings.

All in all though, FANTASTIC job again Sal, can't wait til more servers start hosting it and more people get to experience it.  Thank you and your son again for taking the effort to deliver this map to the community, and I look forward to any further work you do with anticipation.

[Salvatoris]

I added the two closest spawns after a few days of internal testing because we were just spending too much time hiking to get much done.  I am not sure which way I want to go with those in the long run for SA.  I knew they would obsolete the other spawns, but for general performance testing I needed to get people fighting faster.  I have been considering leaving them in, either with a limited vehicle selection (just tanks, or only lights and mediums) or as repair / reload points only.  I will probably move the back spawns in a bit for a final SA version of the map.. and the handy thing about the block setup is that I can swap out the current center spawns with any other blocks of the same size.  I really think that once we have TC available, and I can convert the map to that game-type, no one will be very concerned about the SA version.  I intend to make versions of the map for all game-types, when they are released.

I go back on forth on whether or not to have aeros on the map.  If I am just designing it for ground units, I the map can have more detail and better performance.  I think the VTOLs will work well, I'm just not sold on the viability of aeros on the map, and I'm not sure having them is worth the greater view distance and lower street level detail required to make their performance acceptable.

I intend to mix in more buildings that jump jet equipped mechs can get on top of, but I dont want to really add too many high spots for assaults to get on.  I want people know that it's worth it to take jump-jets, but at the same time, I don't want to give JJ mechs too much of an advantage.  I'll look at making some of the parking garage type structure accessible to non jumping mechs.  Adding external ramps to them wouldn't be much work at all.  There is a lot more varied terrain outside the city center, but as you said, the current spawn layout (and game-type) doesn't give you any reason to play in those spots. 

On the subject of longtoms and LRMs.  I think people will find ways to use LRMs on the map given enough time.  You may have noticed we spent most of our time fighting today on the long straight streets.  Performance can be worse in those areas, but I want to leave several such streets in to keep long range mechs as an option.  I think people will also see the advantage to perched, JJ capable LRM mechs combined with hidden tag-toting BAs once they have more time to get used to the map.  I don't expect to see them used heavily, but I do think some people will find success with them.  I always expected most people to take brawlers, since that's how city maps have been played in previous games.  I think we have plenty of wide open maps as it is, and there's room for the different gameplay that city fighting offers.  Long Toms, I can't stand.. so they get no concessions.

Thanks for the kind words about the map.  I know it's still pretty rough around the edges, and some things were rushed to get a testable version out the door.  I tend to lose motivation for a project without any feedback. And without actual play-testing, I can peruse an idea that doesn't work for far too long before I realize it.  I had a great time playing with you guys today, despite my utter lack of skill.

[(TLL) Heretic]

'missed the playtest on Huntress, but wandered around your map for the 1st time earlier today.  Got to say Sal, it's awesome, really beautiful, you've got more out of Tysons Build script for 3DSMax than I had imagined (and I love your textures BTW).  The cross-walks between buildings are amazing too.  View distance is a bit funky though that might be a Cryengine limitation IIRC(we should see those skyscrapers at 4-8km).

I love your spaghetti junctions, can't wait to take a lance of tanks down them!!!!!!

Go for full ASF, the map demands it!

[(TLL)Siilk]

3). Definitely keep aeros.  While they do have a decent advantage on this map, it also demands competent piloting, and I feel that a couple dedicated AA units would be able to handle a decent amount of aeros fine.

 Not sure about that. Maybe only lightest ones. Or, at least, no heavier, than Sulla. Mirage gave aeros too much of an advantage already so I'm afraid Shivas would thrive here, with ground forces having very limited possibilities to counter them. But definitely keep VTOLs.

4). The map is gorgeous, I can't emphasize this enough.  Wonderful job you and your son have done.  I also get solid fps nearly the whole time, even in heavy 10v10 action, which quite impressed me.

 Cannot agree more. That's a true masterpiece, Salvatoris. Exactly what I was expecting from you, knowing your skills.
 

5). The 3d aspect of the map is a bit under-emphasized (though this might have more to do with our engagement area).  The tall buildings are nice and atmospheric, but there's really no way for mechs to interact with them other than moving around them.  Other than the elevated highway, the rest of the map is relatively flat, and while this does give a wonderful impression of being in the bowels of a great city, it also gets a little stale to be fighting at the same elevation the whole time.\

 Not sure about that. I think with more low-stored buildings such things as ground elevation change wouldn't be required. What I think the map needs, is something like a park, recreational area or a square. A place to have a some more free space to move.
 

6). Consider sprinkling dedicated BA spawn areas around the map, as even with APC's, deployment time can be a bit long (as the map is gigantic).

  Yes, that would be great. And I know, that is a little too much, but I think it would be awesome to make some buildings to have an actual interior, assessable by BAs. Only a couple of buildings maybe and, of course, nothing too fancy, just stairs, some corridors and windows to shoot from. This would be a lot of work, but it would make the mat to feel much more like a real city.

 One more suggestion. It's a city map, but the city is becoming a warzone. Clan forces have just landed some dropships with and assault forces here, so, I think having some ruined buildings here and there and, maybe, some craters from precision orbital strikes would add nice touch to the map. Again, not too much, as the assault have just began, but still some scars on the face of the city should already be visible.

All in all though, FANTASTIC job again Sal, can't wait til more servers start hosting it and more people get to experience it.  Thank you and your son again for taking the effort to deliver this map to the community, and I look forward to any further work you do with anticipation.

 I absolutely agree with Snowball, great job, man! You made an excellent map!

[HAARP]

I don't know. While it is kind of fun zooming between buildings as Aero, it distracts from the actual gameplay on the ground. I don't think you would see such daring pilots in a real city either =P So I'm for removing them. Keep the VTOLs though.

The size of the map is enormous. We have only fought in a fraction of it, but that already is big I think the map could be scaled down 30% for SA. I'd prefer narrower streets and more chokepoints. Without the inner spawns, you'd you quite a distance to walk as BA aswell should you lose your mech. Maybe make the inner spawns BA-only and move them closer together?
Speaking of BA, they need some more hiding places inside the buildings!

The playtest yesterday was a LOT of fun. Shiva runs, Demolisher spam, chasing people between buildings, flanking maneuvers, traps, this map makes it all possible.
So thank you Salv! I love it and looking forward to the next release!

[MerfMerf]

Really really good map I think.
Using ECM is wonderfuly fun on this map.

I am not too fond of narrowing down streets more. I think the map already have a nice contrast of twisting turns (there are some really narrow nifty corridors one can sneak around in/escape through) and more open streets that allow for some manoeuvring.

What I consider a bit of an issue are those parking garage type buildings. Those that have an open section between ground and first floor so you can see through them. The open space is low enough so it looks like you can'g get a mech through there (the first floor would hit the mech mid-section) but its perfectly possible to walk through there with your mech. This makes combat difficult in the same way as mechs clipping through rocks or other stuff on some other maps. I would love to keep them if its possible to prevent people from walking through those buildings (cause its fun to have to try and shoot through the buildings by aiming for those open sections) but if there is no way to get the collision detection to work I'm all for removing the buildings and replace them with the solid kind with no open sections.

/Merf - Have had fun in a tank for the first time in this mod thanks to this map!

[SquareSphere }12thVR{]

man this map sounds awesome, stupid work/school making me miss the play test

[=KoS= Eldragon]

I go back on forth on whether or not to have aeros on the map.  If I am just designing it for ground units, I the map can have more detail and better performance.  I think the VTOLs will work well, I'm just not sold on the viability of aeros on the map, and I'm not sure having them is worth the greater view distance and lower street level detail required to make their performance acceptable.

Keep in mind that the long narrow streets are going to be FBomber's dream. Very little room to get out of the way of a bombing run, and AA guns are going to be mostly ineffective against aerospace. The tall buildings make it so the only aircraft you can shoot down are the ones flying down the street you are on.

I would like to see some parking garages so mechs (or maybe just vehicles) can get up off the street level and walk up to the roof. But thats pretty minor. its an AWESOME map.

[Brainwright]

My first thought when I started this map : fapp, I'm lost already.

It's HUGE.  It's beautiful.  It's everything I wanted in a city map.

I just have a few suggestions as a whiny BA player. I've found foot traffic to be problematic.  The spaces between the buildings are deathtraps.  I'd suggest either adding pedestrian clutter, reducing the spaces between the buildings to around 80m on average, or, as other people have suggested, give buildings interiors.

Also, most rooftops can't easily be fought from with battle armor.  The little walls at the edges usually come up to a battle armor's chest level, and this can't be fired from or jumped onto without some difficulty.  You could either shorten them to about the level of a battle armor's knees or extend them beyond the battle armor's head so when they try to jet over them, they'll collide with the top and latch on, preventing them from sailing off into space.

[Salvatoris]

Hey Merf, I am working on the issue with the low overhangs.  Most are easy to fix just by adding a base to the building that is tall enough for a mech to collide with it.  Can you post a screen of which buildings you thought were the biggest offenders?  I'm trying to get this fix in for the next update.  Thanks.

[(TLL)Andreas]

Really nice map Salvatoris but is there not any other way that you can fix the clipping problem Merf described, because I would love to have places where tanks can drive through but mechs can't follow.