Suggestion for LB-X Autocannons

[(TLL) Heretic]

There's been a lot of talk around about the LB-X ACs and their instagib effec on all ASF in the game, so that got me thinking.

I love the way the ACs fire, and the UACs...they really feel like they are from the same family of weapons, the latest changes to them work very well IMO.  Their LB-X AC cousins appear to be unchanged in how they operate from the earlier beta builds.

I suggest tweeking the LB-X ACs so that they behave in the same manner as their AC counterparts, they are after all roughly the same weapon (LB-X fire the standard AC ammo or cluster ammo)...so an LB-20X would recycle fast and you could get say 6 shots off before the weapon has to cooldown (so same fire-rate as an AC20), of course the damage the LB-20X would do would get spread over the 5-6 shots, this means that the instagib effect on ASF would no longer be a problem.

The LB-5X would fire as often as the AC5 does, 10X like a AC10 and so on.

[HAARP]

Sounds reasonable and I would like to see this aswell. +1

[Kyatlu]

So lbx cannons would do 1/6 of the damage they do now, but fire rapidly till they overheat as auto cannons do. Can't say I like the idea. While that would prevent lbx20 from instagibbing asf, their effectiveness against mechs and armor would deteriorate to the point of being useless. lbx10/lbx5 are already much ineffective, as they have damage drop over distance, low travel speed and lbx10 has the same reload speed of lbx20 (please fix that in the next patch?).

Instead lowering the damage of lbx20 against asf and increasing the damage of other projectile weapons (ac/uac/rac/mgun) and missiles including arrows against asf would translate much better I think (two arrow hits a shiva turn it only yellowish which I believe is ridiculous, same with one arrow hitting a shawk).

[Virt]

I think perhaps halfway of the changes you are proposing (damage, rate of fire, spread) would be a happier medium.

LBX is one of the few weapons in MWLL that I really fear.   I think that fear is healthy

[~SJ~ Wolf]

Honestly, the nerf is FAR too severe. 1/6 of the dmg? That makes LBX5s worthless. So no, I dislike that. A more acceptable adjustment is to nerf the dmg by 25% and reduce cycle time by the same amount.

[HAARP]

Actually, i retract my previous statement. Thinking about it, this would turn LBX into ACs with pellets instead of splash, except for better range and projectile speed. There would be absolutely no reason to take ACs over LBX anymore :/
I'd rather get rid of the overheating feature completely for standard ACs

[Virt]

Honestly, the nerf is FAR too severe. 1/6 of the dmg? That makes LBX5s worthless. So no, I dislike that. A more acceptable adjustment is to nerf the dmg by 25% and reduce cycle time by the same amount.

Yeah, you're right.  I rescind my 50% offer, and now offer 25%.

[~SJ~ Wolf]

Actually, i retract my previous statement. Thinking about it, this would turn LBX into ACs with pellets instead of splash, except for better range and projectile speed. There would be absolutely no reason to take ACs over LBX anymore :/
I'd rather get rid of the overheating feature completely for standard ACs

Well let's not get crazy. A small adjustment in less recycle and less damage could find the happy place in this. 15-25% is the right spot, and it only needs to be applied to either the multiplier itself, or directly to the weapon (I am less favorable of this for its mech on mech affect). If a full LBX20 left you a 10-20% armor rather than dead would be sufficient.

[(TLL) Heretic]

Actually, i retract my previous statement. Thinking about it, this would turn LBX into ACs with pellets instead of splash, except for better range and projectile speed.

That's what LB-Xs are. They're exactly like the regular ACs, but with a cloud of pellets hitting all over the place instead of a solid round with a little splash.

There would be absolutely no reason to take ACs over LBX anymore :/

That's exactly the reason why Clans don't use the standard AC.  They use LB-X, RAC and UAC because the old AC is obsolete to them.

And on the IS side, there are very few reasons to ever take an AC when the LB-X & UAC become available in the timeline (3060s). The cheap cost of the old AC is one.  Specialist ammo that only works with the standard AC (Armour Piercing,  Precision, Incendiary etc)  is another reason to take an old AC over a UAC or LB-X.

I'd rather get rid of the overheating feature completely for standard ACs

Actually I think that's fine (gameplay wise, I know it's not canonical with CBT), the old AC would be doing the same if not more DPS as a UAC in MWLL if that mechanic was removed completely.

@The Wolf and Kyatlu, yes, a 20X would be doing the same damage in each burst of pellets as an AC20 round would be doing (the damage pattern would be different though); but the 20X would also be firing at the same rate as the AC20 and the AC20 is far from nerfed to unplayable....in fact it's one of the best brawler weapons out there.

The 5X would fire like the AC5 on a Partisan does, only difference is that your firing pellets and should have an easier time hitting aircraft than with a AC5.

A reduction in the LB-X vs Light Armour modifier would hurt the LB-5X Waaay too much.  The LB-5X Partisan is the best IS AAA platform in the game at the moment it'd quickly become obsolete if the modifier was reduced even a little I think..

[HAARP]

Actually, i retract my previous statement. Thinking about it, this would turn LBX into ACs with pellets instead of splash, except for better range and projectile speed.

That's what LB-Xs are. They're exactly like the regular ACs, but with a cloud of pellets hitting all over the place instead of a solid round with a little splash.

There would be absolutely no reason to take ACs over LBX anymore :/

That's exactly the reason why Clans don't use the standard AC.  They use LB-X, RAC and UAC because the old AC is obsolete to them.

And on the IS side, there are very few reasons to ever take an AC when the LB-X & UAC become available in the timeline (3060s). The cheap cost of the old AC is one.  Specialist ammo that only works with the standard AC (Armour Piercing,  Precision, Incendiary etc)  is another reason to take an old AC over a UAC or LB-X.

I'd rather get rid of the overheating feature completely for standard ACs

Actually I think that's fine (gameplay wise, I know it's not canonical with CBT), the old AC would be doing the same if not more DPS as a UAC in MWLL if that mechanic was removed completely.

I know all that. But don't forget that MWLL is "zomg different weapons must feel different". That's the only thing I'm referring to.

As for the standard ACs, I don't want to increase their damage. Damage per shot will have to be adjusted accordingly. I just want to get rid of overheat for a weapon that can't jam.

[~SJ~ Wolf]

Actually, i retract my previous statement. Thinking about it, this would turn LBX into ACs with pellets instead of splash, except for better range and projectile speed.

That's what LB-Xs are. They're exactly like the regular ACs, but with a cloud of pellets hitting all over the place instead of a solid round with a little splash.

There would be absolutely no reason to take ACs over LBX anymore :/

That's exactly the reason why Clans don't use the standard AC.  They use LB-X, RAC and UAC because the old AC is obsolete to them.

And on the IS side, there are very few reasons to ever take an AC when the LB-X & UAC become available in the timeline (3060s). The cheap cost of the old AC is one.  Specialist ammo that only works with the standard AC (Armour Piercing,  Precision, Incendiary etc)  is another reason to take an old AC over a UAC or LB-X.

I'd rather get rid of the overheating feature completely for standard ACs

Actually I think that's fine (gameplay wise, I know it's not canonical with CBT), the old AC would be doing the same if not more DPS as a UAC in MWLL if that mechanic was removed completely.

@The Wolf and Kyatlu, yes, a 20X would be doing the same damage in each burst of pellets as an AC20 round would be doing (the damage pattern would be different though); but the 20X would also be firing at the same rate as the AC20 and the AC20 is far from nerfed to unplayable....in fact it's one of the best brawler weapons out there.

The 5X would fire like the AC5 on a Partisan does, only difference is that your firing pellets and should have an easier time hitting aircraft than with a AC5.

A reduction in the LB-X vs Light Armour modifier would hurt the LB-5X Waaay too much.  The LB-5X Partisan is the best IS AAA platform in the game at the moment it'd quickly become obsolete if the modifier was reduced even a little I think..

Honestly, in context of what we were discussing, I really have no idea what your post is supposed to be saying.

[(TLL) Heretic]

@The Wolf, don't see where your confusion is, so it's probably easier to explain it as a series of choices for ending the LB-X instagib effect.

1:  Reduce the modifier for the LB-X versus Light Armour (ASF, VTOL & BA) to such a point where 1 LB-20X no longer instagibs the ASF.  Trouble is that the Quad LB-5X Partisan becomes worthless if that happens (it already takes 2 salvos of slow reloading ammo to kill a shiva, if 3 or 4 slow reloading salvos are required then it will nolonger be an effective AA weapon).

2. Increase the ASF armour to avoid instagib by LB-20X.  Not a good idea...I can hear the screams from the ASF haters already. 

3. Change how the LB-X fires.  As I suggest, mirror the Standard ACs, LB-20X firing like a AC20 would still be an excellent brawling weapon but would no longer instagib ASF.  The LB-X series would now require some skill to use effectively, right now it's just like MW4 LB-Xs, and that's just a missed opportunity IMO.

[Come and See]

1:  Reduce the modifier for the LB-X versus Light Armour (ASF, VTOL & BA) to such a point where 1 LB-20X no longer instagibs the ASF.  Trouble is that the Quad LB-5X Partisan becomes worthless if that happens (it already takes 2 salvos of slow reloading ammo to kill a shiva, if 3 or 4 slow reloading salvos are required then it will no longer be an effective AA weapon).

Only decreasing the modifier on the LBX-20/10 and leaving the 5 alone should work. The LBX Partisan is rather hard to use properly and should be more effective at its role.

2. Increase the ASF armour to avoid instagib by LB-20X.  Not a good idea...I can hear the screams from the ASF haters already. 

No, very bad idea. Shiva's can already take a good enough beating. Just reduce the modifier on the LBX-20 to the point where it can maim at full life, but not be a guaranteed instant kill.

3. Change how the LB-X fires.  As I suggest, mirror the Standard ACs, LB-20X firing like a AC20 would still be an excellent brawling weapon but would no longer instagib ASF.  The LB-X series would now require some skill to use effectively, right now it's just like MW4 LB-Xs, and that's just a missed opportunity IMO.

The LBX is essentially a scaled up shotgun while the AC is a scaled up cannon. The way the AC works is rather unrealistic because the projectile should move hundreds of feet a second instead of like a slow-flying snowball.

The LBX is fine how it is now.

[(TLL) Heretic]

1:  Reduce the modifier for the LB-X versus Light Armour (ASF, VTOL & BA) to such a point where 1 LB-20X no longer instagibs the ASF.  Trouble is that the Quad LB-5X Partisan becomes worthless if that happens (it already takes 2 salvos of slow reloading ammo to kill a shiva, if 3 or 4 slow reloading salvos are required then it will no longer be an effective AA weapon).

Only decreasing the modifier on the LBX-20/10 and leaving the 5 alone should work. The LBX Partisan is rather hard to use properly and should be more effective at its role.

TBH I hate the idea of dividing all types of ACs into 2&5s that are great against Light Armour, but useless against anything else; and 10s & 20s that are great against 'mechs but useless against air.  The Latest changes to the UAC5 damage v Heavy Armour are VERY much welcome in that respect in 0.3, don't want to see us sliding backwards with this one.  It's also a clumsy solution IMO.

2. Increase the ASF armour to avoid instagib by LB-20X.  Not a good idea...I can hear the screams from the ASF haters already. 

No, very bad idea. Shiva's can already take a good enough beating. Just reduce the modifier on the LBX-20 to the point where it can maim at full life, but not be a guaranteed instant kill.

Underlined, above, for clarity.

3. Change how the LB-X fires.  As I suggest, mirror the Standard ACs, LB-20X firing like a AC20 would still be an excellent brawling weapon but would no longer instagib ASF.  The LB-X series would now require some skill to use effectively, right now it's just like MW4 LB-Xs, and that's just a missed opportunity IMO.

The LBX is essentially a scaled up shotgun while the AC is a scaled up cannon. The way the AC works is rather unrealistic because the projectile should move hundreds of feet a second instead of like a slow-flying snowball.

Actually the LB-X is a variant of the Autocannon that can fire Cluster munitions, there's no scaled up issue going on here.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LBX_Autocannon

Quote: the LB-X 10 Autocannon was a derivative of the standard and relatively primitive Autocannon/10 design used for centuries by every military in the Inner Sphere

LB-Xs are just improved ACs, they havve the same firing characteristics, but in MWLL the ACs and UACs are balanced VERY nicely due to their fire rate and overheat, whereas LB-X ACs are just like they were in MW4.  That's the reason why they become one shot instagibbers of ASF.

Decreasing the multiplier the 10X and 20X do vs Light Armour will actually achieve nothing on the instagib problem.  A Loki C or Beatstick will still instagib all ASF.  You reduce the multiplier to the point where they don't and LB-X becomes useless against ASF.

Much more elegant to increase the LB-Xs rate of fire.  The Beatstick would, if an LB-X had the same fire rate as it's AC counterpart, still be a monster to ASF who get too close, but would have to land a couple of hits over a couple of seconds firing to down the Shiva.

Now if we change the firing rate of the LB-X (de-MW4/noob it) it's best to use the MWLL established and tested AC rate of fire/overheat mechanism (the LB-X is an Autocannon, after all).  The LB-X would still fire super faster pellets at the target, it just now fires them at the appropriate AC rate of fire for it's size (ie. 4LB-5X on chainfire = a piss stream of pellets, 2LB-20X give you a automatic shotgun firing as fast as the Maulers 2UAC20s (they'd overheat quicker of course, LB-X has half the fire rate of UAC after all).



The LBX is fine too MW4/Easy/Cheap how it is now.

Fixed that for ya, delete as appropriate 

[~SJ~ Wolf]

It's a shotgun.... short range... point and shoot weapon. What else is there? It supposed to be easy to use. I don't think there has ever been a game (or shotgun for that matter) made where the shotgun was somehow more complicated than "point here". Damage is another matter entirely and always up for debate.