Suggestion for LB-X Autocannons

[(TLL) Heretic]

It's a shotgun.... short range... point and shoot weapon. What else is there? It supposed to be easy to use. I don't think there has ever been a game (or shotgun for that matter) made where the shotgun was somehow more complicated than "point here". Damage is another matter entirely and always up for debate.

Not wanting to sound like a Douche, Wolf, but when some-one posts up links containing the data on the differences between the AC and LB-X, you'd do well to read that first before ignorantly stating your opinion on "What things are".

For example, by reading through Sarnas links you could have found out exactly what differences exist between an LB-X and an AC;
AC10: Long Range is 11-15 CBT Hexes.
LB-10X: Long Range is 13-18 CBT Hexes.
AC10 Heat is 3, LB-10X heat is 2 so it runs a little cooler.
The AC10 does have an Extreme Range out to 20 Hexes, and this is modeled very well in MWLL with damage drop/projectile drop past the stated ranges acting like Extreme range of the ACs.
Both weapons have the same damage output, or DPS, so that shouldn't be up for debate.

As for easy to use...well we've got that already in the lasers, we don't need MW4 style LB-Xs they cheapen the game IMO and create the instagib ASF problem.  I'm guessing that your main experience of the BTU is MW4 (and if I'm wrong I apologise); but I really think it's a bad move for MWLL to copy MW4 in any way (it was the worst of the MW franchise).  MWLL ACs work very nicely, we should model the LB-X on that(rate of Fire and Heat only, not projectile speed or behaviour) Ergo: Instagib problem solved.

[(TLL) Zeh]

Decreasing the multiplier the 10X and 20X do vs Light Armour will actually achieve nothing on the instagib problem.  A Loki C or Beatstick will still instagib all ASF.  You reduce the multiplier to the point where they don't and LB-X becomes useless against ASF.

And...?  Are you suggesting a Beatstick should not kill ALL aero's with a successful alpha?  I think it would be ridiculously retarded if it did not.  Hell, if you're suggesting 2LBX20s shouldn't kill a Shiva, I think you're WAY off what I believe the balance should be.

[~SJ~ Wolf]

It's a shotgun.... short range... point and shoot weapon. What else is there? It supposed to be easy to use. I don't think there has ever been a game (or shotgun for that matter) made where the shotgun was somehow more complicated than "point here". Damage is another matter entirely and always up for debate.

Not wanting to sound like a Douche, Wolf, but when some-one posts up links containing the data on the differences between the AC and LB-X, you'd do well to read that first before ignorantly stating your opinion on "What things are".

For example, by reading through Sarnas links you could have found out exactly what differences exist between an LB-X and an AC;
AC10: Long Range is 11-15 CBT Hexes.
LB-10X: Long Range is 13-18 CBT Hexes.
AC10 Heat is 3, LB-10X heat is 2 so it runs a little cooler.
The AC10 does have an Extreme Range out to 20 Hexes, and this is modeled very well in MWLL with damage drop/projectile drop past the stated ranges acting like Extreme range of the ACs.
Both weapons have the same damage output, or DPS, so that shouldn't be up for debate.

As for easy to use...well we've got that already in the lasers, we don't need MW4 style LB-Xs they cheapen the game IMO and create the instagib ASF problem.  I'm guessing that your main experience of the BTU is MW4 (and if I'm wrong I apologise); but I really think it's a bad move for MWLL to copy MW4 in any way (it was the worst of the MW franchise).  MWLL ACs work very nicely, we should model the LB-X on that(rate of Fire and Heat only, not projectile speed or behaviour) Ergo: Instagib problem solved.

It's not about copying MW4 (my first experience was with a TRO about 20 years ago btw). It about the fact that a shotgun is a shotgun. You aren't supposed to have to try to use it. Not unless you are going to turn it into something different. Like it or not an LBX is a shotgun. Point shoot win. There isn't supposed to be anything more to it. Weapons aren't made for rocket scientist intellects.

You don't even need a nerf as overcomplicated as you have there. Just reduce LX20 modifier a hair, (as others have suggested it's the simplest knob with the least possible repercussions to both balance, other in game assets and code) and the problem is solved. I am all for this getting Instagib problem fixed, I just think the solution is far simpler, and staying to true to what the weapon is, is what is best.

Oh, and you didn't sound like a douche.

[(TLL) Heretic]

Decreasing the multiplier the 10X and 20X do vs Light Armour will actually achieve nothing on the instagib problem.  A Loki C or Beatstick will still instagib all ASF.  You reduce the multiplier to the point where they don't and LB-X becomes useless against ASF.

And...?  Are you suggesting a Beatstick should not kill ALL aero's with a successful alpha?  I think it would be ridiculously retarded if it did not.  Hell, if you're suggesting 2LBX20s shouldn't kill a Shiva, I think you're WAY off what I believe the balance should be.

If the LB-Xs had the same DPS, RoF and overheat characteristics as their Standard AC counterpart then a Beatstick would be crippling a Shiva with an alpha hitting, but as RoF has been improved it will take some sustained fire to kill it (maybe it's only 1 or 2 seconds of sustained fire, but that's preferable to instant), I think that's fair it has 10tons of armour, like a flying Warhammer (That's why weapons without the multiplier against Light armour feel weak against a Shiva). 

@The Wolf, all the other Autocannon types in MWLL employ sustained rate of fire to kill the opponent, and the LB-X AC is just another type of AC.  It's still point and click, but now it would have a much faster RoF.  The LB-X is shotgun-like, but it's not a shotgun (it fire a cannister round that splits into submunitions immediately prior to reaching the target).  There's no reason why it's RoF should be so slow (other than peoples prejudice of shotguns from other FPS, they are balanced to be slow), that slow rate of fire concentrates the DPS of the 10Xs and 20Xs into 1 instant and this creates the instagib problem.

Reducing the modifier for the LB-20X alone will not work; people will just pick rigs that sport 2LB-20X and instagib away, or with Mechlab stack up on LB-10Xs and instagib away.  The modifier is not the problem, it's the slow RoF that concentrates the LB-X ACs into point and click instagibbers. 

This suggestion isn't a nerf in any way, the DPS would remain the same it's just the LB-X AC would now require some skills to use 100% effectively...like the AC, UAC & RAC.  An LB-X is an Autocannon that fires cluster-submunition rounds, so it should function like the other ACs, the only difference is ammo type.

[(TLL) Zeh]

If the LB-Xs had the same DPS, RoF and overheat characteristics as their Standard AC counterpart then a Beatstick would be crippling a Shiva with an alpha hitting, but as RoF has been improved it will take some sustained fire to kill it (maybe it's only 1 or 2 seconds of sustained fire, but that's preferable to instant), I think that's fair it has 10tons of armour, like a flying Warhammer (That's why weapons without the multiplier against Light armour feel weak against a Shiva).

You're STILL suggesting cutting the effectiveness of a beatstick vs air by well over half.  I think that's a ridiculously extreme modification.

[Colonel Drego]

I don't think anyone minds seeing aero's get killed by being stupid enough to fly down the maw of a Beatstick or Loki, its the single LBX20 insta-gib that is irritating people, such has a surprise shadowcat or bushwacker. Reduce the modifier against aeros so ONE LBX20 does not instantly destroy a Shiva, and everything is fine. Two LBX20 hits, there is no problem with that killing a Shiva. I like the way the LBX, and by extension the Beatstick, operates right now with the huge alpha strike. Don't screw with it.

[~SJ~ Wolf]

An LB-X is an Autocannon that fires cluster-submunition rounds, so it should function like the other ACs, the only difference is ammo type.

If the difference was solely ammo type, why is it even a separate weapon? Why not just shove it into a standard AC? Making the LBX like the other ACs removes a nice flavor aspect to a weapon. It's what sets it apart. Why have it all if you are going to basically make it an AC with different ammo?

My point is...

The weapon is perfectly fine in every other situation. The damage the 20 deals, is just a bit too much vs aero and the multiplier needs a small tweak down. The weapon does not need to have its entire damage model redone. I completely disagree about the changes to ROF,(which is balanced currently vs every other asset) and the problem does not exist with LBX10s, even in dual settings.

To be honest the word skill is being abused. Not a single weapon requires more than a point and click to use. If you have that skill, you can do well. Keeping aim  is the skill, and that has nothing to do with how the weapon deals it damage, or how often.

[MerfMerf]

To be honest the word skill is being abused. Not a single weapon requires more than a point and click to use. If you have that skill, you can do well. Keeping aim  is the skill, and that has nothing to do with how the weapon deals it damage, or how often.

I am sorry but I must disagree. A one hit weapon with infinite travel speed for instance is easier to get the full potential out of then a MWLL laser who require you to keep your aim on target for a (short) period of time. More difficult still is weapons with pronounced ballistic trajectories, since these require you to adjust aim not just according to your targets movement, but also distance.

Further more a weapon with fast ROF and small damage per shot is easier to get near to 100% utilisation from when engaging a target keeping in your sights for an extended period of time. A weapon with slow ROF is easier to get 100% utilisation from when facing small windows of fire opportunity.

I think that how a weapon deals it damage and how often definitely have an impact on how hard it is to keep your aim properly and use the weapon to its fullest.

/Merf - Is not necessarily offering its support to the proposed changes to the LBX with this post...

[HAARP]

0.2: ololol lrn2play dunt run infront of hgauss hollander no0b

0.3: olol lrn2play noob why u flyin so low?


If the Beatstick, a dedicated brawler, has more chances of downing a Shiva than any AA unit, something is wrong. If 10 tons of armor are basically worthless because LBX have a x3 (or even higher) damage modifier, it is broken.

Zeh, it seems you'd jump on anything that would nerf Aeros. Please don't. There are other ways to fix the supposedly evil Aeros, having a magic gun that does more damage against anything with wings is not it.


Wolf: LBX _are_ standard ACs The only difference is slightly better range in most cases and the OPTION to fire cluster ammo. You can also fire standard AC rounds with it.

[(TLL) Zeh]

0.2: ololol lrn2play dunt run infront of hgauss hollander no0b

0.3: olol lrn2play noob why u flyin so low?


If the Beatstick, a dedicated brawler, has more chances of downing a Shiva than any AA unit, something is wrong. If 10 tons of armor are basically worthless because LBX have a x3 (or even higher) damage modifier, it is broken.

Zeh, it seems you'd jump on anything that would nerf Aeros. Please don't. There are other ways to fix the supposedly evil Aeros, having a magic gun that does more damage against anything with wings is not it.

Lol What?  I've been very consistant in my support for aeros being SLIGHTLY nerfed, and in almost all cases I've only been talking about the Shiva, and only the armor.  I've also agreed that this could be balanced by other suggestions such as longer repair/rearm time etc.

And you're right.  The Beatstick shouldn't be the best AA unit.  That doesn't mean the Beatstick needs nerfing, it means the other AA need to function better.  (Also, the Beatstick is only a moderately good AA unit, it has limited vertical view and turns quite slowly.)

And this has nothing to do with nerfing Aeros.  It's about nerfing weapons VS aeros.  I agree that an LBX20 shouldn't one-shot a Shiva. 

[Brainwright]

If the Beatstick, a dedicated brawler, has more chances of downing a Shiva than any AA unit, something is wrong. If 10 tons of armor are basically worthless because LBX have a x3 (or even higher) damage modifier, it is broken.

It should be stressed that it is a dedicated brawler with some of the most effective anti-air weapons of CBT.

The fact remains, though, that slow-firing, high-damage per shot weapons are notable for their effectiveness up to their maximum range.  More shots per second is more chances to miss as the difficulty of the shot increases.

The lovely thing about LBX ACs is that they don't lose as much effectiveness at range because of the scatter shot.

If anything, a faster firing rate, even with a comparable reduction in damage, would make them even more deadly against air power, because even with the greater amount of misses with faster-firing weapons, the damage distributed among those misses is less, bringing more firepower on the target.

[Taemien]

How about reducing the modifier on LB-10X and LB-20Xs and keep them for the 2s and 5s against light armor? Maybe even increase it for the 2s and 5s.

This won't hurt the big cal. against mechs and will help the AA against the ASF without nerfing any asset.

[-AAA-]

Like I said in another thread - change LBX10/20 to heavy kinetic and boost that damage type modifier a bit - say, from the 1.6x it is now to 2.5x or so.  There's no reason it should take three gauss rounds to blow the wing off a Shiva like it does now.  However, this would make the heavy gauss a rather potent AA weapon, if you can actually score a hit with it.  Seems fair to me.

[Virt]

The Beatstick shouldn't be the best AA unit.  That doesn't mean the Beatstick needs nerfing, it means the other AA need to function better.  I agree that an LBX20 shouldn't one-shot a Shiva.

So very very true.   It seems very odd to me that a shotgun (and mechs with shotguns) should be the best AA weapons/vehicles.   

Lol What?  I've been very consistant in my support for aeros being SLIGHTLY nerfed, and in almost all cases I've only been talking about the Shiva, and only the armor. 

Yeah but it doesn't matter that you carefully tried to explain you only propose a slight increase in AA effectiveness.   Some people just hear that "you want to return Aeros to 0.2 levels of uselessness" and "you want MWLL to be MW4 with better graphics" and "you've never flown aeros" LOL.

There's no reason it should take three gauss rounds to blow the wing off a Shiva like it does now. 

Is that really the case...?    3 gauss rounds...?    On the wings...?(!)     

I suppose it is the heaviest of the aeros, so there is some relativity to the armour of heavy Mechs to be taken into account.    However, in the greater balance equation, there's also the inherent advantages of aeros vs other vehicles to be taken into account, I'd have thought...?

[=KoS=Zeus]

I seem to recall that one of the primary uses of a shotgun is to kill birds...