Shiva Variant Suggestion's.

[(TLL)Andreas]

Narcs only have a 900m range btw. That puts the Shiva in a dangerous zone for dedicated ground AA.

Protip:
Dumbfire

Since dogfighting is pretty much useless atm, ELRM Shivas with Pilots that know how to hit with dumbfired NARCs (or NARC stationary targets or just blow 2 tons of NARCs on one enemy) are near untouchable.
Tried that once (on Mirage no less) and I had more money than I could possibly spend after a short time.

However it is about as exciting as watching paint dry >_>

Thank you. That's the point, if there's an exploit (such as a 300m gap in the counters weapons) then some folks will always pick it, even if it's boring or cheap.

Maybe the Narc having to lock-on to make the beacon active (so no active beacon when dumbfired), or having them fall out of the air at 800m would be enough to balance this out more, but I still think there's going to be problems with the ELRMs making the Shiva B skycamping while being immune from AA groundfire.

An increase to the UAC, AC and LB-X Autocannon ranges would be the best solution; for example: AC2s to 1500m, AC5s to 1100m, AC10 to 800m & AC20 to 550m.  This would balance things perfectly with the added increase in game play that would come from the AA tanks being able to reach-out and touch missile campers on the ground with the AC5. 

@Korbin, Although I want to see some effective dogfighters I think it defeats the point of having a dedicated AA tank if it can not engage every ASF in the game (and in that case people will always go for the fighter over the AA tank if the AA tank is only partially effective in it's job).  It's combined arms, if a dogfighter is the ONLY answer to some ASF then we have a separate Air War developing, and that's not good for a combined arms game.

I don't really like the idea of longer range on the aa weapons because that would be a big step back wards to 0.2 when you just started shooting at the planes whenever you saw them at any distance and either forced them to go repair before they even could attack once, or fly so low that all mechs could shoot at them (and now we have improved lbx 20's). On the other hand I like the idea of narcs only activating if the narcer have a lock-on although I would like the narcs range to be restored to 1000m then due to the fact that getting a lock-on takes longer time now (0.3.2).

PS. It feels like this thread is getting a bit derailed from the op's post and we should stop discussing how aa weapons/narcs should work in this thread.

[KSerge83]

A lot of the evidence around re-designing the shiva variants is going to depend on pilot (and victim) experience.

My experience with the various shivas (as of recently) -

Shiva Prime - Rarely (if ever) used. Nothing against the prime loadout, as I've mentioned in another thread regarding variant rebalancing. It's more a matter of the current state of the game, and other players' habits, results in me having to choose a much more specialized bird.

Shiva A - I should really have looked first at which variant has what. Is this the UAC loadout? To hell with it, I'm assuming this is the UAC loadout. This is one hell of a flying short-barrel revolver. Big boolet, big damage, crap range. This makes it incredibly fun if there's a weakness in their AA that allows you to get close enough to hug mechs with the UACs. In any other situation, it's pretty much a suicide run.

Shiva B - This is the ELRM build right? As some have pointed out, this is pretty much a one stop shop for uber-long range harassment. Short of having ARROW IVs on it, this is about as deadly a missle boat as the game currently has. I would probably suggest dropping the NARC launcher for some sensor tech, GECM/BHP/AECM, to give it a bit more survivability at the cost of making it rely on a dedicated NARC/TAG or really bad Anti-Air from the enemy. Lock on times would make this very prohibitive without a NARC/TAG, but that would balance how powerful it's salvos are.

Shiva C - The PPC + FBOMBs eh? Honestly I haven't got to spend as much time in this bird as I'd like to, given the Khan++ cost. If I were to propose any changes to this already very powerful build, it would be to replace the PPCs with something slightly less potent, making it merely an "emergency" pair of weapons. Maybe a bunch of ER MBLs? Or a pair of LPLs? Aero generally don't work well with beams, given their twitchy nature, so maybe going to something like a pair of Light Gauss would work too. That way the Shiva isn't helpless without it's Fbombs, but it isn't still a threat to anything other than light anti-air pursuers.

Shiva D - I'm going to assume this is the Heavy Gauss Shiva. the machine guns are 99.9% useless on such a bird, so I agree with some of the already proposed changes. Either give it a faster firing anti-air deterrent that actually does some damage (like a LBX5 or something) or just give the bird more ammo space for the HGauss. I haven't flown this enough to really give it a fair shake, but having taken a pair of HGauss hits from a guy pursuing me with such a bird once, I can say this spec is already very deadly at the anti-air game.

Shiva E - I only recently felt the time was right to give this one a try. Honestly my experience was really a mixed bag. Against any ground asset lighter than a hollander, this mech is a joy and a half. Swoop down, mince up ground targets, then run like mad from the hornets you've stirred up. Against air assets, this is not quite as deadly as it would seem. The RAC5 doesn't do a whole lot of damage, especially during the brief chances you have to hit during aerial combat. This combined with the spin-up time, 300 round ammo pods, Lag, and differences in aerial agility make this really only possible against other Shivas, or really REALLY bad pilots. VTOLs are an exception to this, as they are fairly easy to line up and unload on. If I was to make a suggestion, it would be to drop the MGuns and maybe a few tons of ammo for another RAC5 installment. That or supplement the RAC5 with a comparable fast firing weapon with slightly less damage that has instant firing capabilities. LBX5 comes to mind, but I'm sure others can come up with some good suggestions.

As a mech pilot, the only truly infuriating moments I've had against air units are the sudden Tbolt/Fbomb hits, and the NARC + Missle spamfest. TBH this will happen even if the ELRM shiva gets a heavy handed nerf. The cost of specialization should be a critical weakness, and really all the ELRM shiva needs is to not be a one-stop shop for missle spam fun. This is already well balanced by the fact that none of the big missle boat mechs have NARC launchers. Thus relying on aero or scout mech pilots to mark targets. The same should apply to the ELRM shiva, and even possibly the Tbolt sulla. Make it so that the NARC launching sparrows have a clear-cut purpose on the field, and we'll definitely see a better balance of power from the air.

[Come and See]

Shiva Prime - Rarely (if ever) used. Nothing against the prime loadout, as I've mentioned in another thread regarding variant rebalancing. It's more a matter of the current state of the game, and other players' habits, results in me having to choose a much more specialized bird.

The Shiva Prime isn't as bad as people think, but it's not really good at any particular role. 2 PPC's + Gauss Rifle's can do some serious damage and can attack from a further range than the brawler variants. I think 2 LBX-20 would be better for an AA role (assuming LBX multiplier is nerfed) and decent for air to ground.

hiva A - I should really have looked first at which variant has what. Is this the UAC loadout? To hell with it, I'm assuming this is the UAC loadout. This is one hell of a flying short-barrel revolver. Big boolet, big damage, crap range. This makes it incredibly fun if there's a weakness in their AA that allows you to get close enough to hug mechs with the UACs. In any other situation, it's pretty much a suicide run.

The UAC Shiva can put out seriously lead, but its plagued with heat problems (no DHS) and the lack of GECM. All it takes is one AA tank to keep these planes grounded.

Shiva B - This is the ELRM build right? As some have pointed out, this is pretty much a one stop shop for uber-long range harassment. Short of having ARROW IVs on it, this is about as deadly a missle boat as the game currently has. I would probably suggest dropping the NARC launcher for some sensor tech, GECM/BHP/AECM, to give it a bit more survivability at the cost of making it rely on a dedicated NARC/TAG or really bad Anti-Air from the enemy. Lock on times would make this very prohibitive without a NARC/TAG, but that would balance how powerful it's salvos are.

The LRM variant doesn't really have anything going for it without its narcs. It would take extremely long for lock on's and would basically be useless if there is an AA tank shooting at you. It's also the only Shiva that really has a way to support its team. They can narc targets well out of the safety range of a mech.

The problem I have with the Shiva variant is the ELRM's aren't needed. I never attack more than 1000 meters out and ELRMs have half the ammo capacity which means a lot of flying back to reload because the 2 free tons are always used for Narc's.

Shiva C - The PPC + FBOMBs eh? Honestly I haven't got to spend as much time in this bird as I'd like to, given the Khan++ cost. If I were to propose any changes to this already very powerful build, it would be to replace the PPCs with something slightly less potent, making it merely an "emergency" pair of weapons. Maybe a bunch of ER MBLs? Or a pair of LPLs? Aero generally don't work well with beams, given their twitchy nature, so maybe going to something like a pair of Light Gauss would work too. That way the Shiva isn't helpless without it's Fbombs, but it isn't still a threat to anything other than light anti-air pursuers.

The PPC's seem rather misplaced on this plane. I think it would be cool to have C3 on it instead.

Shiva D - I'm going to assume this is the Heavy Gauss Shiva. the machine guns are 99.9% useless on such a bird, so I agree with some of the already proposed changes. Either give it a faster firing anti-air deterrent that actually does some damage (like a LBX5 or something) or just give the bird more ammo space for the HGauss. I haven't flown this enough to really give it a fair shake, but having taken a pair of HGauss hits from a guy pursuing me with such a bird once, I can say this spec is already very deadly at the anti-air game.

This is a very deadly plane if there's no AA tanks floating around, but I have to agree the M-gun's are useless.

Shiva E - I only recently felt the time was right to give this one a try. Honestly my experience was really a mixed bag. Against any ground asset lighter than a hollander, this mech is a joy and a half. Swoop down, mince up ground targets, then run like mad from the hornets you've stirred up. Against air assets, this is not quite as deadly as it would seem. The RAC5 doesn't do a whole lot of damage, especially during the brief chances you have to hit during aerial combat. This combined with the spin-up time, 300 round ammo pods, Lag, and differences in aerial agility make this really only possible against other Shivas, or really REALLY bad pilots. VTOLs are an exception to this, as they are fairly easy to line up and unload on. If I was to make a suggestion, it would be to drop the MGuns and maybe a few tons of ammo for another RAC5 installment. That or supplement the RAC5 with a comparable fast firing weapon with slightly less damage that has instant firing capabilities. LBX5 comes to mind, but I'm sure others can come up with some good suggestions.

The Shiva E is an air superiority fighter, but the problem is that it's only useful against other Shiva's. The fighters can easily outmaneuver you and it's a rather boring mid-range plane.

I think adding Thunderbolt's to it would make it a nice gap filler between Sulla + Shiva until we have new Aero's to fill that. A well balanced plane that's good at dog fighting and ground attacks.

[KSerge83]

The LRM variant doesn't really have anything going for it without its narcs. It would take extremely long for lock on's and would basically be useless if there is an AA tank shooting at you. It's also the only Shiva that really has a way to support its team. They can narc targets well out of the safety range of a mech.

The problem I have with the Shiva variant is the ELRM's aren't needed. I never attack more than 1000 meters out and ELRMs have half the ammo capacity which means a lot of flying back to reload because the 2 free tons are always used for Narc's.

As I posted initially, the ELRM shiva really should not be a one-stop shop for missle spam. The only way to offset this is to either reduce the missle count (removing a launcher or two for some crappy alternatives) or remove the NARC. ELRM vs LRM makes little difference to me as well, but assuming we take away the NARC, giving this variant the ELRMs seems only fair (combined with a BHP of course). As I said before, the heaviest missle boats on ground do not have their own narc launcher, as that would make ARROW IV mechs too overpowered. Instead, they rely on scout mechs/aero to stick a NARC, then they deliver payload. The ELRM shiva should function the exact same way, only with the added advantage of aero flight speed and room to move. The NARC-less ELRM shiva would still be very potent, provided it has a NARCer or TAGer on the ground, or a really steady aim. The aforementioned scout mech/aero can also distract the AA assets, and mark them for your bombardment. If anything, keeping the ELRM vs the LRM allows the shiva more time to lock on, and more space to launch and retreat.

Also, removing the NARC launcher frees up space for more ammo loading, resolving the "ammo issue" you mentioned with the current variant.

[Come and See]

The LRM variant doesn't really have anything going for it without its narcs. It would take extremely long for lock on's and would basically be useless if there is an AA tank shooting at you. It's also the only Shiva that really has a way to support its team. They can narc targets well out of the safety range of a mech.

The problem I have with the Shiva variant is the ELRM's aren't needed. I never attack more than 1000 meters out and ELRMs have half the ammo capacity which means a lot of flying back to reload because the 2 free tons are always used for Narc's.

As I posted initially, the ELRM shiva really should not be a one-stop shop for missle spam. The only way to offset this is to either reduce the missle count (removing a launcher or two for some crappy alternatives) or remove the NARC. ELRM vs LRM makes little difference to me as well, but assuming we take away the NARC, giving this variant the ELRMs seems only fair (combined with a BHP of course). As I said before, the heaviest missle boats on ground do not have their own narc launcher, as that would make ARROW IV mechs too overpowered. Instead, they rely on scout mechs/aero to stick a NARC, then they deliver payload. The ELRM shiva should function the exact same way, only with the added advantage of aero flight speed and room to move. The NARC-less ELRM shiva would still be very potent, provided it has a NARCer or TAGer on the ground, or a really steady aim. The aforementioned scout mech/aero can also distract the AA assets, and mark them for your bombardment. If anything, keeping the ELRM vs the LRM allows the shiva more time to lock on, and more space to launch and retreat.

Also, removing the NARC launcher frees up space for more ammo loading, resolving the "ammo issue" you mentioned with the current variant.

The reason the Shiva B can pump out so many missiles is because it has no heat issues compared to 0.2 where it had no DHS. You can fire all 80 ELRMs and not even go half-bar on heat.

The Shiva B's only real weaknesses are its low ammo capacity and its not good against large numbers of mechs that are charging forward or moving sideways, but it makes up with that with being able to take out AA tanks with ease.

The UAC / Hgauss / Fbomb / RAC variants only shine when they can constantly do attack runs on the ground without being shot out of the sky by an AA tank, which is easy cause they're cruising around 300 meters off the ground, because they can keep up with the pace.

In all open honestly removing Narc's from the Shiva B would basically make all the variants nearly useless with AA tanks floating around. It's that crucial because it's suicide if you try and charge an AA tank with one of the brawlers and they see you.

[4204ME]

ELRM sheva is not op in its price range. I can rape face with it or fail hard. It depends on my opponents. The narc does make it a beast firing long rang passive on mech/AA  that hold still. The answer is learn to counter. Nerfing the aircraft is the wrong move. The guy in the plane had to learn to evade/ avoid enemy fire to be effective and so should ground.

[(TLL) Heretic]

ELRM sheva is not op in its price range. I can rape face with it or fail hard. It depends on my opponents. The narc does make it a beast firing long rang passive on mech/AA  that hold still. The answer is learn to counter. Nerfing the aircraft is the wrong move. The guy in the plane had to learn to evade/ avoid enemy fire to be effective and so should ground.

Narcs should not be able to emit their beacons is they are not locked on when firing, dumbfired they should explode on contact or go out to 900m and explode (like a bunch of SRMs going off...theres canon HE Narc pods).  Most AA vehicles in the game have nether the speed or small profile to avoid a dumb-fired Narc, a Huit Boosting at full speed, down a hill still has very little chance to avoid a dumbfired Narc, the Partisan has a little better luck, but both machines are too huge to dodge effectively. 

TBH I'd like Narc removed from all ASF and only retained for 'Mechs, Tanks and VTOLs, as ASF pilots do not need any further abilities to lone-wolf, VTOLs or ground units should be painting the targets for them.....Combined Arms gameplay.

ELRM ASF are not balanced in any way, they can stay at a window of 300m beyond any AA weapons in the game, circling without fear, and being ASF they can keep that distance ten times easier than any AA can close to range.  Where's the skill in watching the targets distance and retreating if it goes below 1300m??

The only counter to a Shiva B currently is another ASF, and that is proof that it has broken the AAvASF balance completely (I'm pro fixing dogfighting, but all ASF in the gtame should fear AA, having one variant that is immune from AA unless driven by an idiot, is very wrong) the Shiva B creates the need for a seperate Air War, this harms the gameplay of a Combined Arms game.

[Come and See]

ELRM sheva is not op in its price range. I can rape face with it or fail hard. It depends on my opponents. The narc does make it a beast firing long rang passive on mech/AA  that hold still. The answer is learn to counter. Nerfing the aircraft is the wrong move. The guy in the plane had to learn to evade/ avoid enemy fire to be effective and so should ground.

Narcs should not be able to emit their beacons is they are not locked on when firing, dumbfired they should explode on contact or go out to 900m and explode (like a bunch of SRMs going off...theres canon HE Narc pods).  Most AA vehicles in the game have nether the speed or small profile to avoid a dumb-fired Narc, a Huit Boosting at full speed, down a hill still has very little chance to avoid a dumbfired Narc, the Partisan has a little better luck, but both machines are too huge to dodge effectively. 

TBH I'd like Narc removed from all ASF and only retained for 'Mechs, Tanks and VTOLs, as ASF pilots do not need any further abilities to lone-wolf, VTOLs or ground units should be painting the targets for them.....Combined Arms gameplay.

ELRM ASF are not balanced in any way, they can stay at a window of 300m beyond any AA weapons in the game, circling without fear, and being ASF they can keep that distance ten times easier than any AA can close to range.  Where's the skill in watching the targets distance and retreating if it goes below 1300m??

The only counter to a Shiva B currently is another ASF, and that is proof that it has broken the AAvASF balance completely (I'm pro fixing dogfighting, but all ASF in the gtame should fear AA, having one variant that is immune from AA unless driven by an idiot, is very wrong) the Shiva B creates the need for a seperate Air War, this harms the gameplay of a Combined Arms game.

You do realize that the Shiva B has glaring weaknesses for its strengths? It can only hold 120 missiles and from experience it takes 3-4 volleys to kill any unit. Also, narc's don't follow lock-on's, and always have to be dumb fired.

The Shiva B is the only variant that can stand up against AA tanks because all the other variants require you to be up-close in order to deal their payload, which means they get blown out of the sky and basically makes it futile. The narc's are what give it a fighting chance and it is the only Shiva that can actually support its team by narcing targets well out of their range. So imagine having 120 missiles and having to lock on to your targets for 3-8 seconds each time while AA fire is hitting your plane and jerking your screen around. Yeah, you'll give up fast, and just fly Tbolt Sulla all day.

There's two sides of the coin. AA tanks get crapped on by Shiva B's, but they crap on every other variant.

[Colonel Drego]

AA is not broken. Last night I went 16-4 in a Huit on Sandblasted, easily making KN. My first 3 kills and 4 deaths were in various mechs before I bought my first (of two) Huits. If I need to upload a screenshot I will.

[CHHš Aurailius]

You do realize that the Shiva B has glaring weaknesses for its strengths? It can only hold 120 missiles and from experience it takes 3-4 volleys to kill any unit. Also, narc's don't follow lock-on's, and always have to be dumb fired.

You're actually wrong in that regard, Narc's DO lock on out to their stated range, and do follow their target.  their manuverability isn't very good, i'll admit, but it is there, and it does help if you use it.  you're getting mixed up because you think that the narc will follow your ELRM lockon wich will show out to 1500m away, the narc will only even start to lock at 900m.

Also, the firebomb sulla and shiva are pretty nasty for any AA tank, because you usually cant kill them before they drop the bombs on you, and if it's the shiva, you're dead.

[Come and See]

You do realize that the Shiva B has glaring weaknesses for its strengths? It can only hold 120 missiles and from experience it takes 3-4 volleys to kill any unit. Also, narc's don't follow lock-on's, and always have to be dumb fired.

You're actually wrong in that regard, Narc's DO lock on out to their stated range, and do follow their target.  their manuverability isn't very good, i'll admit, but it is there, and it does help if you use it.  you're getting mixed up because you think that the narc will follow your ELRM lockon wich will show out to 1500m away, the narc will only even start to lock at 900m.

Also, the firebomb sulla and shiva are pretty nasty for any AA tank, because you usually cant kill them before they drop the bombs on you, and if it's the shiva, you're dead.

I'm talking about Narc's in general because I lock on with a Raven or Loki and they'll go flying 10 ft behind them. I guess they have really bad tracking cause I've always dumb fired with better results.

Also, F-Bombs are very hard to use though. The sights are awful and anything but direct hits do any real damage and another that sucks is you can't really judge where they went because there's no 3rd person view to see how far you were off. Let's not forget the Sulla only has two so if you miss you wasted your time and have to fly back to base.

Everything has its two sides. Yeah, you can get blown up by a Fire Bomb dive-bombing Sulla, but then look at how many times they miss compared to when they hit. I don't like using the Fbomb variants and I would think Arrow boats would be far more dangerous.

[(TLL) Heretic]

AA is not broken. Last night I went 16-4 in a Huit on Sandblasted, easily making KN. My first 3 kills and 4 deaths were in various mechs before I bought my first (of two) Huits. If I need to upload a screenshot I will.

We're talking about the Shiva B here, how many of those kills were at greater than 1200m?  I figure between 0 and, er...0.,,the reason you became Khan I would guess was more to do with the enemy not choosing to Shiva B you after your first kill...I've gone 16/0-3 many times in Huits, but when the pilots switch to the Cheeseboat(Shiva B) it's end of the line for all ground AA...ERGO it breaks the mechanic.

AAvASF is almost perfect right now IMO, only the Shiva B breaks the model.  And yes it's boring to fly a Shiva B (So you don't see them so much in pub games) but for league no-respawn play 2 Shiva B can rule the map, and boring does not matter, only surviving....so the Shiva B breaking the AAvASF mechanism will be something that harms league play.


@Comeandsee, you know you can almost hover with the Shiva right ?  Locking on from 1300-1500m is quite easy against all AA except the Huits with their ECM (But you can also dumbfire vs Huits as they're too slow to dodge much, if they're moving at all), you can reload faster than any ground unit as your hanger is only seconds away), so the 120m per launcher is not really much of a limiter.

LRMs have 1000m listed and explode after 1010m or so, SRMs can go out to 360m(?) before exploding (listed as 350m range).....but the Narc is listed at 900m where the dumbfired Narc seem to have no range limit...does that sound liuke a consistant dynamic or an exploit to be fixed?

[Come and See]

LRMs have 1000m listed and explode after 1010m or so, SRMs can go out to 360m(?) before exploding (listed as 350m range).....but the Narc is listed at 900m where the dumbfired Narc seem to have no range limit...does that sound liuke a consistant dynamic or an exploit to be fixed?

Narc's do have a range limit. Sometimes they make the hit sound from far out of range, but actually won't do anything. I don't think it's really an exploit (or bug?) if it is indeed broken, but it may work like ERPPC's which say 900, but are more like 1100. It won't be a game breaking change if it was changed.

Also, ballooning is a rather boring strategy if that's what you're referring too. I like to be in the thick of the battle.

[Come and See]

The current RAC Shiva is extremely upsetting to the overall aerospace balance. 4 RAC 5's in a plane that turns and moves just as fast as its brothers basically makes flying Shiva's completely useless because you're blown up in 2s in a plane that takes half as much skill to use as the other variants.

I don't understand the scheme of aerospace right now because the Sulla's and Sparrowhawk's have pathetic weapons for dogfighting, but then we have a 77k plane that is like a flying AA tank that completely dominates the sky by blowing up other Shiva's like it's 0.2. I really think the RAC variant Shiva variant should be removed next patch and some AC5's added to the Sulla.

[Colonel Drego]

The current RAC Shiva is extremely upsetting to the overall aerospace balance. 4 RAC 5's in a plane that turns and moves just as fast as its brothers basically makes flying Shiva's completely useless because you're blown up in 2s in a plane that takes half as much skill to use as the other variants.

I don't understand the scheme of aerospace right now because the Sulla's and Sparrowhawk's have pathetic weapons for dogfighting, but then we have a 77k plane that is like a flying AA tank that completely dominates the sky by blowing up other Shiva's like it's 0.2. I really think the RAC variant Shiva variant should be removed next patch and some AC5's added to the Sulla.

Oh please, the only thing the RAC shiva is actually good at is taking out other shivas, or stupid light mechs. Since it still handles like a dumpster with wings and the speed of a camaro, it can't exactly deal with any of the lighter ASF. If anything, we need the sparrowhawk or sulla to get some UAC5s or RAC2s so that we actually have a proper fighter to quickly deal with the shiva. Using the RAC5 shiva is akin to using an A-10 to gun down other slow attacker aircraft. As it is now though, a RAC5 shiva is pretty much the only way to kill an ELRM shiva before it flees back to it's base turrets, removing it would be idiotic.