Aerospace Ramming - Exploit?

[Virt]

1.  Look up

2.  Move

There, you just defeated a flying asset.

I've seen you flying, and I can say with confidence that you're not such a bad pilot that anyone merely looking up and moving defeats you.

[LordHack]

They don't have to defeat "me" (although I'm mediocre at best), but they do significantly defeat tbolt and fbomb - both of which are infinitely more effective when the target is motionless and unaware (and not firing back).  Tbolt track to target is especially bad (and should be fixed a bit).

Plus, it's so satisfying to hear yourself rank up when your taking chunks out of passing ASF, and then knowing they are going to have to land, which is a gamble for them in this game.. ha ha.

QFT everything Snowball said. 

[Freeborn_Toad]

If you still think this is fine you're either a troll or a very, very sad individual who enjoys ruining the game for others. Griever, get a life.

I've never intentionally rammed anyone with an aero. I almost never even use them.

I do agree that aeros have some problems, but I do not think ramming people with them is an issue. Nor do I think "grieving" is an issue.

Exploits (BAs firing through stone, areos not taking damage from ramming other aeros, lag issues, etc) should be fixed, if possible, but other than that, I have exactly zero problems with any tactics anyone decides to use. Adapt your own tactics to counter.

[~SJ~ Karuik]

ok then, adapt tactics to counter... please tell me, what counter strategy can you think of to deal with a high speed sparrowhawk missile barreling at your flying brick shiva?

[Taemien]

ok then, adapt tactics to counter... please tell me, what counter strategy can you think of to deal with a high speed sparrowhawk missile barreling at your flying brick shiva?

I don't think its open to such discussion. Show me a server where they allow this behavior.

But yeah I know you're humoring them.. lets see their justification of such.

[DracheM]

ok then, adapt tactics to counter... please tell me, what counter strategy can you think of to deal with a high speed sparrowhawk missile barreling at your flying brick shiva?

I don't think its open to such discussion. Show me a server where they allow this behavior.

But yeah I know you're humoring them.. lets see their justification of such.

Calm down.  This sort of attitude isn't helpful.  Remarking that anything isn't "open to discussion" shuts down the whole point of the forum.  If you're only here to "humor" people with opposing viewpoints, that isn't exactly contributing to discussion -- or, for that matter, the purpose of the discussion, which is to improve the game.

Since you want an example, a counter would be to fly your Shiva with a wingman equipped with dual H.gauss.  Since the sparrowhawk is coming directly at you two, that makes it very, very easy to hit.

[(Wilson)]

I think deliberately ramming over and over is just nasty, but on the other hand, I believe it is a viable tactic as a last resort. If you are completely sunset, have extremely low odds on making it back to base/surviving an ejection and are being harassed by multiple aeros/AA.. kamikaze can at least take one of the enemy aeros with you...and remove it's threat from the rest of ur team temporarily...I do think that the kamikaze pilot should definately NOT be rewarded with points/rank/cbills or anything though.. perhaps even the opposite, some form of penalty would reduce the occurance. Perhaps something like introducing a wait timer to re-buy an aero asset after ramming one into another ( I'm not an aero pilot.. never fly em except for random fun, just throwin ideas out there )
 
Funny thing is though the number of times Ive heard a low flying aero comin at me... lookin like it's gonna do an FB run, only to try and ram my mech...only to bounce off with no damage to me at all lol. Its funnier still when u dont see em comin and then just see a random aero go bouncing off to the side exploding after trying to ram you from behind...
 
That's one mechanic I dont think should change... dont allow aero's to ram ground forces, or at least make sure they cannot do enough damage to destroy it if they do, somewhere around half the damage of an Arrow would be good.. take out a sunset mech, but barely scratch the paint on a fresh one...

[LordHack]

Why would an asf ram a mech??  More likely they lagged out.  Has happened to me, and I definitely wasn't trying to ram or faceplant...

Aero ramming should, at best, be a zero sum game (from a score perspective).  I doubt it's an intentional mechanic, and it may not be a preventable one from game engine side.  If so, it should be addressed in the score portion somehow.

[(Wilson)]

Why would an asf ram a mech?? 

My assumption is that some pilots don't realise that ramming a mech doesnt hurt it.. until they try.
It's happened to me maybe 4 or 5 times at most though, its not something that many people do, and I'm pretty sure that it's not something most people do more than once.
 
A lag spike could explain a couple.. but I've definately had aero's attempt deliberate mech ramming.. my point was more that it's amusing to see than anything else lol

[Taemien]

ok then, adapt tactics to counter... please tell me, what counter strategy can you think of to deal with a high speed sparrowhawk missile barreling at your flying brick shiva?

I don't think its open to such discussion. Show me a server where they allow this behavior.

But yeah I know you're humoring them.. lets see their justification of such.

Calm down.  This sort of attitude isn't helpful.  Remarking that anything isn't "open to discussion" shuts down the whole point of the forum.  If you're only here to "humor" people with opposing viewpoints, that isn't exactly contributing to discussion -- or, for that matter, the purpose of the discussion, which is to improve the game.

Since you want an example, a counter would be to fly your Shiva with a wingman equipped with dual H.gauss.  Since the sparrowhawk is coming directly at you two, that makes it very, very easy to hit.

Doesn't need to be helpful. The tactic has been deemed an exploit. If you want to use it, play on the servers that allow for it. I don't know any that do so you may need to host you're own. Be sure to advertise that it is allowed so like minded players can go there.

If you did that, we all could have our cake and eat it to. The exploiters can play on a server where they won't get banned, and us non-exploiters can play without needing to worry about them.

Thats a solution that satisfies both sides.

[=KoS= Tripod]

I can imagine it now...

BumberPlanes Server

[=KoS=Zeus]

The times when I've had ASFs try and ram me is when they are hell bent on getting their Thunderbolt shot on me, but I maneuver my mech toward them and under them, thus forcing them to angle a steeper and steeper dive. By the time they manage to get the shot on me, there is no pulling up from the dive and they kamikaze.

To me, that is a stupid behavior that should not be rewarded. Of course, my mentality in MWLL is to try and never die during a match, thus taking a realistic approach to the game play. It is very rewarding to go 0 deaths in a game and I sympathize with ASF pilots that landing is suicidal.

However, this is still a game, and this is just one way to play. Another way to play is to be a suicidal maniac in every possible iteration of the phrase. This can be kamikaze pilots, charging demolishers, vulture Bs who charge in and kill kill kill then die, BA that spawn from APCs and just meat grinder against the enemy forces over and over again until their APC is destroyed, then they start it all over again by buying a new one.

The meat of this debate is that the mechanics need to change so that such behavior is not optimal. In the case of ASFs not dying when they ram another plane, that is surely an issue. As for realism vs. gameplay, however, I would suggest that in order to stop the kamikaze behavior against mechs, that ASFs should never damage ground units by ramming them. The ASF should explode, but inflict no damage to the ground asset. If the kamikaze behavior does inflict damage, then it is as if the game encourages players to do so by rewarding them with kills.

[Rakkis]

I never try to intentionally ram any1, but i do end up ramming people for a couple of reasons:

1. Lag, getting close to a target to fire on them (aero or mech) and i lag for a sec or to and then boom i'm dead.

2. trying to match aero in pursuit and he slows down and pulls  toward me at close range, boom we both die.
 
3. while the other player is coming right at me i open up with my MG's and when he starts getting close i try to break off, and the other pilot does the same in the same direction.

Edit: also i have noticed that on aero/aero collision one player gets the kill the other gets a suicide 5/5 times.

[Warrio]

How could this every be considered an exploit?  When things run into each other they tend to do damage.  Newton observed this, described it with a bunch of big words and we've taken it as gospel ever since.  If you are not skilled enough to spot an enemy approaching you and move out of the way then don't take it out on others by crying exploit.

MWLL is a game and games where "only guns can kill" should generally be relegated to the level of mid 90s first person shooters.  In this dynamic environment that we have mechs can land on each other and ASFs can, amazingly enough, crash into each other.  Let creativity flourish even if it doesn't fit into your narrow "guns make bad guy dead" way of thinking.

[MerfMerf]

How could this every be considered an exploit?  When things run into each other they tend to do damage.  Newton observed this, described it with a bunch of big words and we've taken it as gospel ever since.  If you are not skilled enough to spot an enemy approaching you and move out of the way then don't take it out on others by crying exploit.

Yes and in real life both die and don't respawn (or the respawn is in the form of a newborn pending on personal unverifiable beliefs but still...).
I don't think anyone would have minded if both players got a suicide. Now one of the two involved in the collision get a suicide and the other get a kill. So this actually yields MORE of a reward then skilfully downing your opponent with your guns since enemy team loose point for the suicide and your team get points for the kill instead of only you getting points for the kill had the scenario been a proper gun kill.

What newton actually observed was that for every force there is an equal (in magnitude) opposite force (among other things). Newton did not observe a collision of two different masses of comparable density resulting in the lesser mass obliterating the larger mass.

/Merf - Thinks why this is an exploit has been made clear several times throughout this thread...