Author Topic: A new heat system  (Read 3428 times)

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Offline HAARP

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A new heat system
« on: September 02, 2010, 10:07:15 PM »
Greetings.
Warning! Long post ahead, thinking required! :P

Heat currently works according to real-world physics it seems. That is you cool extremely slow at low internal temperatures and faster at higher temps due to higher dT to the ambient temperature.
Now this is broken in several ways:

During combat and even during short breaks, the heat barely goes under 400-500K. Most of the action takes place around 800-950K heat, giving only a minimum of control and making it harder to judge your waste heat.
For the same reason, low-heatsink designs have trouble staying cool on Inferno and tend to stay around 700-900K just from MASCing around a bit. On the other hand heatsink-heavy designs like the Novacat have no trouble staying cool. This is a big deal. It -really- should be the other way around.
Heat dissipates too fast in most cases. While it takes a while to cool down to ambient temp like I mentioned above, you're out of the red pretty quickly.
As a consequence, energy-heavy designs can hug the red line repeatedly without any side-effects, apart from having to hit override occasionally.

I think this has a number of causes:

- Engine heatsinks are non-existant or not working properly. Fusion engines should offer 10 free heatsinks, even double-heatsinks when the mech uses this type.
- IS machines have no access to double heatsinks, a key technology
- The dissipation rate of heatsinks and heat generation of weapons seems off in many cases. There is no clear value on it that the player can use to determine "I will overheat by X if I fire Y"
- Heat dissipation follows real-world physics that not only makes fine-grain control harder, but also forces most mechs to hug the red line during combat


It is problematic. I can't really enjoy the heat system. It penalizes low-heat designs but isn't brutal to high-heat ones. Inferno seems to only amplify this. There are no side-effects for high heat levels.

Now let's take a look at how CBT does it.
Bear with me. Just read and don't go "hurp dice derp real-time" just yet, please!
Heat is collected during the weapon phase. Your weapons created "24" heat. At the end of the 10-second turn, the heatsink capacity is substracted from that value, e.g. 24-20 (10 double sinks) = 4 heat remaining for the next round.
This is not real-time of course and "collecting" heat to actually use it later doesn't work in real-time. But what we can learn from this is that a single sink dissipates 1 and a double sink 2 heat in 10 seconds.

I want to take this system and convert it into real-time
Now let me interrupt here for a little bit. Before you go kicking and screaming for me mentioning "goddamn" CBT again or accusing me of wanting to turn MWLL into CBT or whatever you think my problem is, let me put up this disclaimer:
I'm not doing this because I want CBT in MWLL. I'm doing it because CBT is a proven system and because all mech variants are OPTIMIZED for this! This goes especially for many of the Clan "Primes". To truly achieve proper balance, either the current heat system has to go, or the Primes do. And many of us will scream bloody murder if the latter happens.
What I want to do is a nice system that punishes high heat, adds the Battletech flavor of "realism" and turns the game into a fun simulation without sacrificing gameplay! Disclaimer end.


I would completely redo the heat system. First, introduce an arbitrary heat scale. It is linear, a heatsinks dissipates 1 heat over 10 seconds, weapons create X heat.
(If we change weapon damage in any way, we should keep these 10 seconds in mind, because it too should be averaged over 10 seconds)
I can explain it better if I make an example:

Your mech has a large laser and 2 medium lasers. It alphastrikes, therefore creating 8 heat for the large and 3 for each med = 14. Let's add 2 due to running (or maybe even more, this doesn't have to be the same value as CBT unlike weapon heat) for a total of 16. Your mech spikes to 16 heat.

You have 4 extra heatsinks, single technology. 10 engine heatsinks + 4 extra allows you to dissipate 14 heat, leaving you at 2 excess heat. This doesn't happen instantly though. These 14 heat are dissipated over the course of 10 seconds. That's 14 per 10 seconds, or 1.4 per second, or 0.14 per 1/10 seconds. We probably won't need more than 1/30 sec resolution though. At the end of these 10 seconds, your heat returns to 2.

If 10 seconds is deemed too fast for gameplay, we can of course modify it. Try 15. Or 18. This is open for testing.

But wait a sec! you say. Aren't we missing something?? Yes we are. Heat capacity. What does "spike to 16" actually mean in a real-time environment? It is nothing without a scale. So what is heat capacity? It determines how many heat points you can "carry" before you hit the red line.
How is this capacity determined? Balancing it a couple of times? Depending on chassis? No. It is determined by the number of heatsinks itself! Example:

A Novacat has a whopping 25 double heatsinks (10 in the engine, 15 extra) that allows it to dissipate 50 heat in 10 seconds. But at the same time, it has a heat capacity of 50 heat points aswell! It now fires 2 ER Large Lasers, which produce 24 heat. This is a fraction of the heat capacity, but nevertheless, the heat instantly spikes to 24. This is not a problem, since it can go up to 50. It dissipates 50 heat in 10 seconds, or 5 in 1 second. So it takes roughly 5 seconds to dissipate this heat again and reach 0.

But this is op you say! it will be able to fire its weapons without problems! What if it reaches 50 heat points, what then? Of course, something has to happen. Should the heat level exceed the heat capacity, we hit the red line. I would love to have heat effects at this point, but for simplicitie's sake, let's ignore that for now. The solution is simple. For example 1 heat over capacity = shutdown initiated, 10 heat over = taking damage, 15 heat over = insta-shutdown. These are fixed levels everybody can figure out and should be the same for all mechs. You KNOW when you hit 100% capacity that a shutdown will follow, or that firing all PPCs will do just that. Example 2:

The Novacat alphastrikes. A risky move, but our pilot is bold. Both ERPPCs output 30 heat while the ER large add 36 to that for a total of 66. This doesn't look good. With a heat capacity of 50 this instantly puts us at 16 overheat! Not only will you take damage for being 10 over max, but you will also shut down instantly. No alpha strike for you! This illustrates how much of a last measure alpha strikes actually are in heat-heavy variants.

If you still think that this makes the Novacat overpowered, keep in mind that weapon damage should probably be adjusted to the new heat system aswell.


Ambient temperature can be implemented by decreasing the dissipation capacity of every heatsink by a fraction. 25°C = x1.00, 100°C = x0.75, 200°C = x0.60 or something like that. It will have to be determined by experimentation.

Coolant would also alter this modifier as long as it's active, doubling single heatsink efficiency and adding 50% for double heatsinks.


To summarize: Heat capacity is determined by number of heatsinks (x2 for double heatsinks). Heat dissipation rate is the full heat capacity per 10 seconds. Weapon heat is applied immediately, heat is dissipated over time. No heat effects until the full heat capacity is exceed.


Heat effects would be nice aswell. Instead of simply threatening to shutdown when the heat capacity is exceed, we could have heat effects that gradually get worse aswell. Scrambling HUD, blurry vision, slower running speed and maybe ammo-explosions. It's as canon as it gets :D

Finally, to put a nice face on this system, maybe we could do some maths and make it look like full heat capacity is actually "900 Kelvin" and zero heat being "(ambient temperature) Kelvin. This would only be a visual touch though.


Well, that's it. I hope this post was educational. The heat system would solve the problems I mentioned at the top.
I'm open for opinions!
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 11:47:17 PM by HAARP »

Offline MrAgmoore

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Re: A new heat system
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2010, 10:47:55 PM »
Greetings.
Warning! Long post ahead, thinking required! :P

Heat currently works according to real-world physics it seems. That is you cool extremly slow at low temperatures and faster at higher temps due to higher dT.
Now this is broken in several ways:

Don't you mean "you cool quickly at low temperatures and slower at higher temperatures"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_transfer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_conductivity


When I started using MASC on Novacat B ( 4 large purple pulse lasers ), I noticed that I could run 90 km/h over vast distances ( 1 km + ) and most of the time the heat stops rising maybe 2/3 of the way up the bar. For the maps that I actually start to redline the heat, I just pace myself by ejecting coolant. I'm like a long distance runner. I find it hysterically funny ( for that class of mech ).
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Offline HAARP

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Re: A new heat system
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2010, 10:51:37 PM »
Don't you mean "you cool quickly at low temperatures and slower at higher temperatures"?
I'm referring to internal heat. Fixed. ;)

Offline aTolyK

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Re: A new heat system
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2010, 10:52:25 PM »
my 2 cents: This. Is. Awesome.

Great thinking, I wish this were implemented in a mod for MW4 to (stuck with that until my $1,100 gaming laptop or I go to a freinds' lan party...)
Are we here yet?

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Offline Sesambrot

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Re: A new heat system
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2010, 10:52:34 PM »
So a linear heat dissipation, rather than an exponential?
Not a bad idea, but I doubt it would favor low-heatsink designs over high-heatsink designs any more than the currentsystem does...
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Offline Kyatlu

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Re: A new heat system
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2010, 11:06:02 PM »
Read all of it. Parts I like;

- Max heat capacity being attached to carried heat sink amount instead of being the same for every mech.

- Exceeding too far through max heat level (overrideable level that is) initiates forced shut down, no override.

- Heat effects (blurry vision, ammo explosions etc.)

- Heat dissipation speed being relevant to ambient temperature (currently ambient temperature is just min heat level?)

- May I also humbly suggest that a shutdown mech should cool faster than a shutdown overriden mech.


Parts I don't like;

- Heat dissipation being turn-based. Instead of all those numeric values mentioned being implemented I believe only reducing avarage heat dissipation speed would have the same effect.

Parts I'm confused :o

During combat and even during short breaks, the heat barely goes under 400-500K. Most of the action takes place around 800-950K heat, giving only a minimum of control and making it harder to judge your waste heat.
For the same reason, low-heatsink designs have trouble staying cool on Inferno and tend to stay around 700-900K just from MASCing around a bit. On the other hand heatsink-heavy designs like the Novacat have no trouble staying cool. This is a big deal. It -really- should be the other way around.


A Novacat has a whopping 25 double heatsinks (10 in the engine, 15 extra) that allows it to dissipate 50 heat in 10 seconds. But at the same time, it has a heat capacity of 50 heat points aswell! It now fires 2 ER Large Lasers, which produce 24 heat. This is a fraction of the heat capacity, but nevertheless, the heat instantly spikes to 24. This is not a problem, since it can go up to 50. It dissipates 50 heat in 10 seconds, or 5 in 1 second. So it takes roughly 5 seconds to dissipate this heat again and reach 0.

...

The Novacat alphastrikes. A risky move, but our pilot is bold. Both ERPPCs output 30 heat while the ER large add 36 to that for a total of 66. This doesn't look good. With a heat capacity of 50 this instantly puts us at 16 overheat! Not only will you take damage for being 10 over max, but you will also shut down instantly. No alpha strike for you! This illustrates how much of a last measure alpha strikes actually are in heat-heavy variants.

How's that the other way around? Say a low heatsink config has 20 heatsink value, has both low max heat level and low heat dissipation speed. It alphas firing 2xlbl and 2xmbl creating 22 heat, dissipates 20 in 10 sec, having 2 remained. Now a high heatsink config with 50 heatsink value fires the same weapons, creating 22 heat and dissipates all heat in actually 22*(10/50 sec)= 4,4 sec.


« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 11:29:47 PM by Kyatlu »

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Re: A new heat system
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2010, 11:13:42 PM »
It wouldn't favor low heat designs with few heat sinks any more than high heat designs with lots of heat sinks.

Example: Osiris B w/ AC/20 and 2 small lasers. AC/20 builds up 7 heat, small lasers 1 heat each. You spike 9 heat, dissipate 10 over 10 seconds. You never exceed your 10 heat threshold.

The problem is, as with CBT, that Double Heat sinks make most careless Clan designs feasible. Case in point.

Example: Scat C w/ CERPPC and Gauss Rifle. CERPPC builds up 15 heat, Gauss 1. You spike 16 heat, cap at 20, dissipate 20 over 10 seconds. The highest heat weapon in the game is carried on a chassis with zero extra heat sinks and runs amazingly cool. You would need to repeatedly fire your CERPPC and Gauss rifle, while at a full run ~ 3 times (16 seconds of combat) before you even hit 1 heat over your cap. Only then would you get a shutdown warning. It would then take an additional 7 volleys (~1 minute of combat) before you got up to 10 heat and started to take damage.

I ask, why not use the flat heat scale from CBT? It was made that way to benefit cooler ballistic mechs and hinder hotter energy weapon mechs. The flat scale was 30, and literally all you would have to do is take your system and just say all mechs have a spike cap of 15 and it works exactly the same and is really damn close to CBT.

Example: I'm in a Novacat A. I fire a single CERLBL and spike to 12 heat, no negative effect (3 below the 15 threshold where shutdown override is needed; or 1 over cap in your system.) I wait 2.5 seconds (dissipating all 12 heat) and fire a second CERLBL. Again building up to 12 heat and suffering no ill effect. I wait 2.5 seconds and spot a juicy target. I fire 2 CERLBL, building up 24 heat. I now need to override shutdown (9 over spike cap) but I don't start taking any damage just yet (not 10 over spike cap.) I now wait 2 seconds (dissipating 10 heat, from 24 down to 14) and fire a 3rd CERLBL. This spikes me up to 26 (14+12) and now I have to override shutdown and take some minor damage (26 is 11 over the spike cap, I take damage at 10 over.) If I fire another CERLBL within the next 1.5 seconds I will push up to over 30 heat capacity and auto shutdown.

OMG, now the Novacat isn't Fing broken anymore.

Offline HAARP

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Re: A new heat system
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2010, 11:21:58 PM »
I ask, why not use the flat heat scale from CBT?
Look closer, I kinda am! ;) Only that mine starts at "100% capacity exceeded" because using CBT's scale and having it start at 0 absolute heat would be madness.

I see your concerns about low-heat designs. They would never overheat unless...unless they suffer engine damage! I say losing a side torso with XL engine in it reduces your heat effectiveness ;D
Nah, seriously, I don't see the problem. The whole point of low-heat designs is not having to deal with heat much is it? ??? They would become the prevalent unit on Inferno.


Parts I don't like;

- Heat dissipation being turn-based. Instead of all those numeric values mentioned being implemented I believe only reducing avarage heat dissipation speed would have the same effect.
Turn-based? Nothing is turn-based in my implementation ???

How's that the other way around? Say a low heatsink config has 20 heatsink value, has both low max heat level and low heat dissipation speed. It alphas firing 2xlbl and 2xmbl creating 22 heat, dissipates 20 in 10 sec, having 2 remained. Now a high heatsink config with 50 heatsink value fires the same weapons, creating 22 heat and dissipates all heat in 22*(10/20 sec)= 11 sec.
Nah, the high heatsink config would dissipate that in a little over 4 seconds
50*(10/20 sec)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 11:27:21 PM by HAARP »

Offline xInVicTuSx

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Re: A new heat system
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2010, 11:24:04 PM »
Alright, let me try and get this straight...

Heat capacity is based on heatsinks rather than fixed at a certain temperature.

Therefore I can put say 4 ERPPCs on an imaginary puma that still has the heatsinks built in for 2 ERPPCs, not only will I not be able to use the other ERPPCs due to the slower dissipation not allowing me to chain fire them one at a time for a staggered alpha, BUT I will instantly be in trouble if I fire all 3 or 4 of the ERPPCs because I have instantly transcended the heat capacity given to me by my heatsinks.

Whereas if I do the same on the Novacat, because of the increased number of heatsinks I am able to absorb better the shock of the instant heatspike caused by all four ERPPCs and thus not only am I allowed to actually use all the ERPPCs with meaningful frequency due to better cooldown rate, but if I do choose to use all four of them at once I will survive.

So the result of this is that heatsinks are REQUIRED on a high heat design to absorb the spike itself, rather than just cooldown within a reasonable time? Imagine it as moving the the red critical line down on our current indicator depending on how many heatsinks there are. More heatsinks gives you more room to play with, but still does not help you beyond critical as you should instantly shut down.

Am I even close? :P
Actually I dont think I am, I keep seeing flat heat being mentioned...
So I suppose diminishing returns is not part of this?

For instance heat dissipation rate will be according to the temperature of the core when the weapon is fired.

Therefore, if I wait for the full cooldown of the Ncat I could fire all four ERPPCs again and go back to critical heat.(Note I know the Ncat doesnt have the heat capacity for all 4 without going way beyond critical but im trying to be simple.)

BUT if I fire all four ERPPCs and get to critical heat, then wait 1/4 of the time needed to cool down completely then fire 1 ERPPC I will not only return to critical heat capacity but the new heat introduced will either cool down much slower because it was added to the hotter core on already taxed heatsinks, OR and this is not clear to me yet, the entire stack of heat will cool down slower because the heatsinks have now been compromised. 

Therefore it is something like this
_________________________________________ Cool down efficiency when new heat is introduced at these points
^100%         ^75%          ^50%         ^25% ^Critical

The part I'm not sure on is whether the heat spike from the one weapon would cool down slower, or if the entire heat stack will cool down slower as a result.
So say my heat is on the critical line and I wait for it to go to the 25% line, then I fire one ERPPC and it returns to the critical line, should that block in between the 25 and critical lines cool off at a 25% efficiency rate or should the entire stack cool down at a 25% rate until the core is ambient again?

*Shrugs* Completely changing the system looks like a mess to me.

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Offline SquareSphere }12thVR{

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Re: A new heat system
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2010, 11:25:28 PM »
I do like this. It gives a movable "red line" that makes more sense, the problem of a large amount of HS's  having super rapid cool down is minimized, which give coolant a better role as a "rapid cooldown" source. 
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Offline Sesambrot

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Re: A new heat system
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2010, 11:31:29 PM »
What i don't like about this is that it's so damn predictable.
Also, what's the point in changing the whole heatsystem just in order to nerf the NCat?
My concern is the Madcat A, it's an awesome design, but it's very hard to manage it's heatoutput already, with a new system like that, it would be completely useless.
Though I can only tell from the Madcat A, but I'm sure there are some other Mechs which would have about the same problem, and I don't like the idea to sacrifice those variants for a new heat system while the one we have actually works pretty well...
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Offline HAARP

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Re: A new heat system
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2010, 11:33:05 PM »
Alright, let me try and get this straight...

Heat capacity is based on heatsinks rather than fixed at a certain temperature.

Therefore I can put say 4 ERPPCs on an imaginary puma that still has the heatsinks built in for 2 ERPPCs, not only will I not be able to use the other ERPPCs due to the slower dissipation not allowing me to chain fire them one at a time for a staggered alpha, BUT I will instantly be in trouble if I fire all 3 or 4 of the ERPPCs because I have instantly transcended the heat capacity given to me by my heatsinks.

Whereas if I do the same on the Novacat, because of the increased number of heatsinks I am able to absorb better the shock of the instant heatspike caused by all four ERPPCs and thus not only am I allowed to actually use all the ERPPCs with meaningful frequency due to better cooldown rate, but if I do choose to use all four of them at once I will survive.

So the result of this is that heatsinks are REQUIRED on a high heat design to absorb the spike itself, rather than just cooldown within a reasonable time? Imagine it as moving the the red critical line down on our current indicator depending on how many heatsinks there are. More heatsinks gives you more room to play with, but still does not help you beyond critical as you should instantly shut down.

Am I even close? :P
No, that's actually quite correct :)

What i don't like about this is that it's so damn predictable.
Also, what's the point in changing the whole heatsystem just in order to nerf the NCat?
My concern is the Madcat A, it's an awesome design, but it's very hard to manage it's heatoutput already, with a new system like that, it would be completely useless.
Though I can only tell from the Madcat A, but I'm sure there are some other Mechs which would have about the same problem, and I don't like the idea to sacrifice those variants for a new heat system while the one we have actually works pretty well...
It's predictable, yes. Or do you want to introduce the dreaded "dice" into this and make it unpredictable? :P
It's not about the Novacat. It's just a prominent example.

And the Timby A would be semi-fine. It produces 42 heat with its weapons, which, while impossible to dissipate completely within the Timby's tonnage, is manageable.
And if an overweight design like that doesn't work, that's not the heat system's fault, but the design's ::)
Basically what this does is introduce "what works in CBT works here", so all the designs taken from CBT should work a lot better now :)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 11:42:46 PM by HAARP »

Offline Sesambrot

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Re: A new heat system
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2010, 11:37:33 PM »
I do like this. It gives a movable "red line" that makes more sense, the problem of a large amount of HS's  having super rapid cool down is minimized, which give coolant a better role as a "rapid cooldown" source.
Okay, if that's the problem, I think I missed the point the whole time...
In fact, I think that might be solved by introducing a delay before the mech starts to cool down again, for example 0.5 or a full second

Additionaly I don't see why mechs with much heatsinks should be able to withstand more heat than mechs with few heatsinks.
It may be CBT, but it doesn't make sense since the "only" purpose of heatsinks is to dissipate the heat created by weapons and equipment...

Basically what this does is introduce "what works in CBT works here", so all the designs taken from CBT should work a lot better now :)
I don't get it...
Which CBT design doesn't work properly with the current system?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 11:44:56 PM by 7.[WD]Sesambrot »
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Offline Cujo

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Re: A new heat system
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2010, 11:47:48 PM »
why would the number of heat sinks affect the capability of an entire system to absorb sudden heat spikes?  There's literally no physical reason for it.  unless I've totally missed your point.

Offline HAARP

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Re: A new heat system
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2010, 11:49:47 PM »
I don't get it...
Which CBT design doesn't work properly with the current system?
Let's start with the Cougar and Mad Dog Prime ;) But I do not wish to discuss variants in this thread.

why would the number of heat sinks affect the capability of an entire system to absorb sudden heat spikes?  There's literally no physical reason for it.  unless I've totally missed your point.
It's like this for gameplay reasons. Let's just say that more heatsinks means more coolant that can absorb the heat ;)