Gauss rifles

[Digital Communist]

the one thing I would say and to keep in mind are the differences that make these weapons unique and methods to keep similar weapons in use.  The obvious differences...
1) Obviously one is energy and one is ballistic so the trade offs between heat and ammo are there, but with the ability to re-arm the advantage of unlimited ammo energy weapons is somewhat diminished.

2) Splash damage.  The PPC has splash damage, the gauss does not.  The splash damage is part of what sets it apart in design.  And when you think about it, it's a mass of particles rather than a solid mass of metal, so that makes sense to me at least.  The Splash damage also makes it useful for killing BA, especially when you don't have any MGs or small lasers with rapid firing rates.

just thoughts.  I think it's important to ensure that weapons that fill similar roles still seem unique in their own right so that they don't get more or less, shelved.

Well then nerf its damage. The nova cat right now is the end all be all sniping mech because of its 4xCERPPCs that cause cockpit shake and overheating. Gauss accuracy can not compare to this.

[(TLL) Heretic]

The Clan ERPPC is well balanced with it's CBT counterpart for damage, so crys to "nerf it's damage" are not helping things.

The Heat model is too forgiving for Energy boats, but that's a separate issue to comparative damage.

I have attached a picture of damage done to the front armour of a Demolisher, 1st on the left is 4RAC2s fired till they Jam from cold, the second from the left is 4ERLarge fired over that same time period (A RAC2 should do upwards the same damage as a ERLarge laser over the same period).

The 3rd from the left picture is 2RAC5s fired from cold until they Jam, the last picture is 4CERPPC (same dps as the 2RAC5 in CBT).

As you can see the weapons are pretty well balanced for damage per second, so any change to ERPPC &CERPPC damage is not needed.

EDIT: A Change to the splash might not hurt much (as long as the splash can kill BAs I'd be happy to have it reduced and the point of impact damage increased a little).

PPCs are the ultimate energy weapons in CBT, Clan ERPPCs are the most devastating energy weapons you can use, I think MWLL translates that very well indeed.



[attachment deleted by admin]

[xInVicTuSx]

Pretty much what I wanted and still want is the splash damage to be toned down a bit, CERPPC should be very close to if not equal the Gauss in single point damage as it does now to keep up with the DPS of everything else, but the splash is overwhelming vs mechs and small tanks as it adds loads and loads of extra damage the more it hits. Right now the splash is so devastating its translating into close to three Gauss rifles, once each hitting the CT, RT, and LT respectively if you hit the CT with the ERPPC.
It seems to be a bit much, along with toned down heat dissipation it should then be fine and I don't expect any heat changes to effect mechs like the Puma prime which is about right in its heat management already. Remember splash damage could probably be toned down a bit for all three PPC types, normal PPC will be fine if it gets its proper damage it is just more noticeable on the CERPPC.

[(TLL)Siilk]

Remember splash damage could probably be toned down a bit for all three PPC types, normal PPC will be fine if it gets its proper damage it is just more noticeable on the CERPPC.

^This. Leave the main damage and splash area as they are now, just make the splash damage lower(or, preferably make it exponentially-decreasing from the point of impact to the splash area border). But leave the splash damage high enough to pop the BA.

[Digital Communist]

The Clan ERPPC is well balanced with it's CBT counterpart for damage, so crys to "nerf it's damage" are not helping things.

First off I want to say that I understand this is a beta release, and yes, the PPC and Gauss are fairly equal in MWLL in terms of damage on ONE section, as their clan variants each do 15 damage.

Here is what I would like to see happen to the PPC in .4 or a future release

A)Damage nerf to balance for extra effects (cockpit shake, heat transfer, splash damage)
or
B) Remove the cockpit shake, the heat transfer, the splash damage, and fix the heat system. Keep damage the same.

Here's why think we need to do one of these two choices, if we're going off CBT here.

• The PPC in CBT never transferred heat to the target it hit, only the flamer and certain ammunition types did, and the flamer rule was optional
• The PPC never made it harder for the enemy to return fire (cockpit shake)
• PPCs never had splash damage across multiple areas like LRMs or Autocannons.
• Firing 4 CERPPCs in one CBT round generates 60 heat. Firing 5 CERLBL in one round generates 60 heat as well. Even with 13 DHS (26 heat dissipated per round) this would instantly shut down your mech. Keep in mind that each round represented 10 seconds.

I would like to add that not all mechs had coolant. Coolant pods were a seperate system apart from the heat sinks that weighed extra and took up space and was not commonly found on stock variants.

Heat intensive mechs also suffered other problems like

• Movement penalties (not ingame)
• Targeting penalties (not ingame)
• Potential pilot death (if the life support was critted, also not ingame)
• Ammunition Explosion (not ingame)

All of this was the price to pay for an energy weapon heavy mech that didn't have to worry about ammunition. Balancing factors that are not present in MWLL at the moment. Without any of these balancing factors, the out of whack heat system, and with the extra stuff MWLL added to the PPC, it tips the balance of Gauss VS PPC heavily in favor of the PPC. Especially since there are only 2 gauss at the most on any mech or tank in MWLL, and there are mechs with 4 PPCS.

Edit: Corrected, ammo explosion not implemeted

[Askis]

Ammunition Explosion (not ingame)

Especially since there are only 2 gauss at the most on any mech or tank in MWLL, and there are mechs with 4 PPCS.

That's probably because in CBT the Gauss weighs twice as much and also uses twice the crits (triple for Clans) compared to the (C)ERPPC and needs similar tonnage and an Assault slot in MWLL.
The only 'Mechs that might be able to carry 4 Gauss are the Blood Asp and the Fafnir.

[HAARP]

On the other hand, Gauss don't need any heatsinks. This equalizes their high weight/crit requirement. It's the basic balance between energy and ballistic weaponry.

[Digital Communist]

Ammunition Explosion (not ingame)

Especially since there are only 2 gauss at the most on any mech or tank in MWLL, and there are mechs with 4 PPCS.
[/quote]

That's probably because in CBT the Gauss weighs twice as much and also uses twice the crits (triple for Clans) compared to the (C)ERPPC and needs similar tonnage and an Assault slot in MWLL.
The only 'Mechs that might be able to carry 4 Gauss are the Blood Asp and the Fafnir.
[/quote]

Thought the overheat/explosion was supposed to be the ammo explosion?

[(TLL)Siilk]

Thought the overheat/explosion was supposed to be the ammo explosion?

 Nope, it's a damage dealt to the internals from excessive reactor heat. It's amount is depending on the duration of the overheating(heat gauge being full, not just over the "shutdown line"). It has no impact on any onboard ammo and would be the same if no ammo is there in the first place, in case of the energy boat for example.

[(TLL) Heretic]

Ammunition Explosion (not ingame)

Especially since there are only 2 gauss at the most on any mech or tank in MWLL, and there are mechs with 4 PPCS.

That's probably because in CBT the Gauss weighs twice as much and also uses twice the crits (triple for Clans) compared to the (C)ERPPC and needs similar tonnage and an Assault slot in MWLL.
The only 'Mechs that might be able to carry 4 Gauss are the Blood Asp and the Fafnir.

We need a build where a Vulture has 2ERPPCs, that way we would have a direct comparison with the twin gauss variant and the speculation in this thread will end.

Example by anecdote; Thunder Rift I usually work as fast as I can to get a Puma Prime (2ERPPCs) or if I can afford it the Vutlre A(2Gauss), why? In my experience the twin Gauss is more effective at sniping than the twin CERPPC; as they're no 4Gauss machines in the game I upgrade from the 2Gauss Vulture to the 4CERPPC NovaCat....but if there was a 4Gauss Annihilator or something, I'd be using that instead.

[xInVicTuSx]

On the other hand, Gauss don't need any heatsinks. This equalizes their high weight/crit requirement. It's the basic balance between energy and ballistic weaponry.

Show me the Puma with x2 Gauss rifles.

Example by anecdote; Thunder Rift I usually work as fast as I can to get a Puma Prime (2ERPPCs) or if I can afford it the Vutlre A(2Gauss), why? In my experience the twin Gauss is more effective at sniping than the twin CERPPC; as they're no 4Gauss machines in the game I upgrade from the 2Gauss Vulture to the 4CERPPC NovaCat....but if there was a 4Gauss Annihilator or something, I'd be using that instead.

Interesting point, but thunder rift is a not an ideal battle situation, more like a silly shooting gallery with everyone standing more or less still in cramped hallways.
 x4 Gauss would be 48 tons, x4 ERPPC with 13 DHS is 37 tons... I hope it would work better.
But +1 to your post for the x4 Gauss Annihilator
Though imagine the hilarity of destroying an arm and having it chain react destroy the side and center torso respectively.

To the differing Gauss pod models, perhaps the bigger one should have CASE and therefore not explode when hit?

[HAARP]

On the other hand, Gauss don't need any heatsinks. This equalizes their high weight/crit requirement. It's the basic balance between energy and ballistic weaponry.

Show me the Puma with x2 Gauss rifles.

What for? Mechs with double heatsinks come with 20 heat dissipation points due to their engine, thus saving you 10 tons. Of course energy weapons are lighter than ballistic ones, as long as you can dissipate the heat.
And the Puma still has far from enough heatsinks for continuous fire. If it mounted 2 gauss rifles, this wouldn't be an issue.

[Cujo]

um, gauss rifle ammo is inert.  does it have the same overcharge explosion like a ppc without it's inhibitor turned on?

[xInVicTuSx]

On the other hand, Gauss don't need any heatsinks. This equalizes their high weight/crit requirement. It's the basic balance between energy and ballistic weaponry.

Show me the Puma with x2 Gauss rifles.

What for? Mechs with double heatsinks come with 20 heat dissipation points due to their engine, thus saving you 10 tons. Of course energy weapons are lighter than ballistic ones, as long as you can dissipate the heat.
And the Puma still has far from enough heatsinks for continuous fire. If it mounted 2 gauss rifles, this wouldn't be an issue.

Again, if we're all standing still in a shooting gallery (Thunder rift) alphaing the PPCs more than twice in a row without any cooldown wait would be an issue but with minimal stalling using the Pumas speed and small profile allows you to fire more or less continuously for eternity it has enough heatsinks to function just as well as a Vulture A, which is almost twice the weight, slower, and a much bigger target. Remember in all of this the splash damage is making the ERPPC do far more net damage overall than the Gauss rifle. Right now the only saving grace of the Gauss is it does slightly more single point damage and flies somewhat faster.

[=KoS=Zeus]

4 Gauss Rilfes (plus ammo, remember, MWLL gives you a ton for free with each weapon) would equal 52 tons in CBT (1 ton of ammo each). Your standard 10 free heat sinks dissipates this heat no problem.

So, with 52 tons to play with you could get 4 CERPPCs (24 tons), and be left with 28 tons to devote to heat sinks. No mech can mount more than 41 double heat sinks (that is with every possible crit space taken up (except the head) and mounting a 400 rating engine. The mech only needs to dissipate 60 heat, however, so you only need 30 double heat sinks, or 20 tons of extra heat sinks. This leaves you with 8 extra tons to play with. Since heat sinks don't really have critical locations in MWLL, you don't really need to worry about things like endo-steel or ferro-fibrous armor taking up space, nor XL engines for that matter. But, in the spirit of CBT in order for a clan machine to get 52 tons of pod space you are looking at a 100 ton Daishi with 1.5 tons of armor stripped off of it, and it's carrying 5 extra heat sinks already.

Your best bet is to mix Gauss and CERPPCs, 2 of each: 38 tons of weapons and you only need 6 tons of double heat sinks to keep you cool, theoretically. On a Daishi with the 5 default heat sinks already included in that would only cost you 33 tons out of your 50.5 tons of pod space. Plenty of weight to add in the shoulder LRM launcher (4.5 tons w/ammo), and, say, 2 CERMBLs (2 tons). That leaves 11 more tons to slot for ammo, so we'll say it carries 1 extra ton of ammo per weapon, so 8 tons left for extra heat sinks.

End result is:
2 CGauss w/ 2 tons of ammo (3 in MWLL)
2 CERPPC
2 CERMBL
1 CLRM-15 w/ 2 tons of ammo (3 in MWLL)
14 extra Double Heat Sinks (24 total = 48 dissipation)
Builds up 2 heat for gauss, 30 for CERPPC, 5 for LRM-15, and 10 for CERMBL = 47 heat w/ 48 dissipation.
Damage output is ~ 83 damage a turn in CBT (assuming LRM hitting with 9 missiles on average)