Author Topic: Gauss rifles  (Read 5949 times)

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Offline Vlaad

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Re: Gauss rifles
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2010, 09:53:33 PM »
Invictus said it all and i think that he is spot on.
 I wanted to point out to this problem, I feel the same on all aspects of balance as invictus pointed out. I will try to present all aspects of my opinion.

First ill take the ppc (in global, all ppc-s). it has speed with witch any advanced player, not to mention expert players, can lead ppc on target small and fast moving like light mech in no more than 500m. On hit, ppc;

-transfers heat (serious advantage in any combat situation) for example player1 has any type of energy-dependant  mech , IS tech, in hands of it player2 automatically is unable to return fire in appropriate rate or, in worst case shuts down.

-Hypermega-shake-of-epic-proportions. No player beginner or otherwise can return fire while in this state. It has already mentioned what chain firing ppc boat can do and how that impacts game play. It also promotes stationary type of play as only one advanced player in novacat can make a huge difference when guarding camping position.

-EMP effect. This requires no explanation. If you are hit lights go out. Again this disrupts mostly players who want to go on offensive in less than ideal light conditions. Snipers, campers or otherwise any player who chooses to stay out of any type of brawl is not too much bothered with this.

-Splashing. Most expert players know how to make a quick kill: focus fire on most damaged part of enemy mech. Throw in a ppc with splash and you get a quick kill with no risk of being hit. When alone, any player can be expert with ppc armed mech.Hold the mouse button/chain fire and place a hit ANYWHERE on your target! It will hurt him.

-No ammo requirements.

Downsides? Heat. Witch is not an issue on most mech that pack more than two of this. Even if the heat was higher, advanced player would manage.

Now gauss rifle. In most mech games this was a weapon to have. I got hooked on mwll first when I fired this one on a light mech. I was afraid of being hit with it and tried to evade by maneuvering so that I don’t get hit twice in a same area on a mech. Mostly evading was successesful, but again it only distributes hits, it still was painful by being hit by one. With armor increase patch? I could not care less when being targeted by one. It takes artists to place more hits in same spot in less than ideal conditions. It has limited ammo so every shot should count. A miss hurts your economy. And it should considering the power of a weapon. Few mechs pack two of those. So now if somebody chases money to buy a madcat mkii, mech defined by those weapons, he is either nostalgic or a beginner. And that’s without taking into consideration 4-shot hgauss or ltgauss (toothpick). And effect of being hit with one is almost ridiculous. Well placed shot takes skill end yields little satisfaction making this weapon one the least wanted weapons.

Perhaps gauss rifle and ppc should be rebalanced. Gauss could do a bit more damage about (all gauss rifles) 15% and on hit wobble target similar to ac20 hit. This would at least annoy targets and remind them that they are being hit by more deadly weapon and seek cover or maneuver instead of continuing their camping/lasring exercise. Reduce ammo to 8 or something but bring this epic weapon in a spotlight! Few people find it rewarding as it is now, one reason why you don’t see mkii prime fielded/ fielded with successfully at all!

I my opinion ppc should be long range and er ppc ultra long! No splashing, more damage (10%) and a little less heat while reducing shake on hit. Perhaps a disrupting shake like ac20 but with effects off losing targeting reticule/minimap or emulate effect of shutdown? Let erppc outrange gauss/lasers. This versions ppc effect could be saved for “snub-nose ppc” (never heard of it before till I read it on sarna) if it finds a way into this mod. This way there would be more of a difference in unique weapon effects.
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Offline Taemien

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Re: Gauss rifles
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2010, 10:34:38 PM »
I think the PPC is fine as it is. If we want to rebalance, lets boost the guass damage a bit. Just because CBT the CERPPC and Guass do the same damage, doesn't mean they should here.

Offline xInVicTuSx

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Re: Gauss rifles
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2010, 10:53:58 PM »
That is a big decision; what that would entail is bumping the game up to be more deadly and more like .2,
toning down the PPC would be a step further in the direction taken in .3 with slower battles.
I would be interested to see the devs take either direction, leaving it how it is however, would leave me a little disappointed.

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Offline Deathbane

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Re: Gauss rifles
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2010, 11:23:10 PM »
 ??? The gauss is just fine. Your forgetting it generates little to no heat on firing, and travels at a much faster speed than a ppc blast. Youll also notice it concentrates the damage more, which is whats needed when you're trying to leg a faster, lighter mech.

I use gauss rifles over ppcs all the time simply because i find them more reliable and keep me further from the red line.

Just comparing damage does not really give the whole picture about balance. PPC should have its huge splash and its em effects, to differentiate it from the gauss rifle. The shake however, should probably be reduced and the heat system tweaked to stop variants with mega amounts of heatsinks from being able to chain fire at too high a rate.


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Offline (TLL) Heretic

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Re: Gauss rifles
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2010, 02:18:25 AM »
*SNIP*

Just comparing damage does not really give the whole picture about balance. PPC should have its huge splash and its em effects, to differentiate it from the gauss rifle. The shake however, should probably be reduced and the heat system tweaked to stop variants with mega amounts of heatsinks from being able to chain fire at too high a rate.

^^^ This.  The Heat Capacity on all 'mechs being twice what it is in CBT (with the free coolant) is the reason why we're getting the PPC hate, not the splash or damage levels.

If a pilot could only chain-fire those 4ERPPCs with 2-3 more seconds of enforced delay between each shot (ie. waiting to cool down) then folks wouldn't get irrate.


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Offline Vlaad

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Re: Gauss rifles
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2010, 02:22:39 AM »
I would have to disagree on gauss damage. When firing a gauss in a stationary target, its damage would be plausible and I would agree with deathbane. But when firing on a target that is on the move, even on less agile heavy mech it is hard to hit the same spot twice. I am sorry if I made an impression that the damage/kill speed was predominantly important, but to understand why I suggested gauss damage boost I will try to explain more creatively, without relying on damage. Btw I like CBT rules but I started reading only recently and I agree on the fact that CBT rules don’t translate well on real time game play. I am motivated to write purely because I would like to propose changes purely for game play reasons in what I think (objectively I hope) needs changing without relying on CBT (in witch I don’t know almost anything about).

In one game I joined late and as you may assume all players in both teams are stationed in heavy/assault. So my choice is logical: gauss uller. Long ranged and agile I can out maneuver heavier mechs while keeping the distance and my personal satisfaction of piloting direct-fire mech. I find a 5cerlbl nova, and engage at ~ 800 m. After 2 volleys nova cat player spots me, but I run for cover, hitting his ct while retreating. Instead if truing to fight me while on the move (the distance I still great) he just stops and begins to chain fire his lasers.

My point in this is that a gauss hit would mean enough to at lest get him on the move or worry him that his ct takes a few well placed shots. Instead, he is not even bothered or disrupted as he has no forced motivation to move from his spot. I have both read on forum and gave/received hits with nova cat so I think that shake would force otherwise stationary players to move if forced by shake/dmg factor. Hence, my gauss light shake on hit suggestion. I believe that most players have been in similar situation. As far as speed is concerned difference does exist but it is not relevant for this debate as gauss is not instant like lasers and requires a good lead, just like ppc to hit a moving target in say ~300-400m. Heavy gauss makes this even more relevant. I personally feared this weapon the most in previous iterations of MWLL. I will not even comment on light gauss.

Ppc player on the other hand, has all the advantage. Considering that developers, say, adjust cockpit shake fact of the mater still stands that it does not matter where one hits with ppc as invictus pointed out on the beginning. While on the move ppc can hit any part of a mech. For example, two players engage in combat. Both are shooting on the move and lets say, both are in identical in all aspect (except heat sinks for cerppc variant). This way the winner of the match is very clear as gauss has, regardless of skill, far less chance of hitting desired location multiple times an does not compensate for his advantage as low heat weapon. While true that gauss is far more “reliable” in pure heat sense it falls FAR behind cerppc in overall usefulness.

I agree that my ppc suggestions are far too revolutionary but I think that they give still weapons their identity (beyond the obvious energy/ammo debate). The thruth is as much as I thought about my “how to balance things marathon post” I could find no answer: nerf the damage on ppc and it will become too weak. On top of that I would like to see IS ppc get range. So I would like to see other suggestions/opinions on this topic.

Look at it this way. Most people camp in novas (moment when there are more than 4 on map game becomes stationary). Lasers (witch, I would like to point out, are AMAIZINGLY done, far best than in any mech-game) are instant but have some discharge time so the key in breaking their precision chain fire is to make the wielder actually move and I would like to see gauss fulfil this role. In that sense, when already mentioning camping, most people do it in novas no? So making the move to distribute damage should be the key in achieving more active game play. Beyond the obvious, weapons have not only character but a game role. AC/UAC are devastating if close/target not on the move, lbx are precise, fast and hard hitting, lasers are surgically precise, missiles have their role fulfilled relatively good, ppc do what they do and gauss simply does not fulfill the role of hard hitter in my opinion. Also I would like to see mkii (and blood asp I hope *sniff*) fielded more as I think that in latest patch (yes I loved it) most gauss-tooting mech configurations have simply died of (like my car).
And that evading of hard hits in one area is what I think that will brake laser boats dominance/promote more active-shoot on the move style of game play.
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Offline (TLL) Heretic

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Re: Gauss rifles
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2010, 02:41:11 AM »
Just thinking, take a Gauss Huit, strip off the UAC5s, rip out the Arrow IV Launchers and you've got enough room for another 3 Gauss Rifles and 2MGuns for anti-BA work  :o

Huit F (F for WTF just hit me)

4 Clan Gauss
2MGuns
4 Free tons.

I'd roll one  8)


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Offline xInVicTuSx

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Re: Gauss rifles
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2010, 02:54:30 AM »
Not sure it would have the pod space for 4 Gauss rifles, looks like it can only carry two large assault weapons on the turret, just speculating though.

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Offline LordHack

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Re: Gauss rifles
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2010, 03:24:38 AM »
*SNIP*

Just comparing damage does not really give the whole picture about balance. PPC should have its huge splash and its em effects, to differentiate it from the gauss rifle. The shake however, should probably be reduced and the heat system tweaked to stop variants with mega amounts of heatsinks from being able to chain fire at too high a rate.

^^^ This.  The Heat Capacity on all 'mechs being twice what it is in CBT (with the free coolant) is the reason why we're getting the PPC hate, not the splash or damage levels.

If a pilot could only chain-fire those 4ERPPCs with 2-3 more seconds of enforced delay between each shot (ie. waiting to cool down) then folks wouldn't get irrate.

QFT.... <me forgets heat thread link>

Offline MatthewPryde

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Re: Gauss rifles
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2010, 05:16:44 AM »
Honestly, the reason behind why the "big guns" are the only ones commonly used (PPC, Guass, UAC 20) is that the negatives of them have not been introduced yet. Firing a ppc causes immense heat and static, shorting your radar, as well as alerts others to your location, ecm or not. Gauss knocks you stupid, you fire it, and your mech has to recoil a bit, especially if it is running. The Autocannons can effing explode if your heat gets to high, or the weapon is fired too quickly. With these in the game, you will see the more reliable weapons being used much more. Until then, you will keep seeing these types of threads complaining about superweapons not being up to snuff.
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Offline HAARP

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Re: Gauss rifles
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2010, 07:26:47 AM »
*SNIP*

Just comparing damage does not really give the whole picture about balance. PPC should have its huge splash and its em effects, to differentiate it from the gauss rifle. The shake however, should probably be reduced and the heat system tweaked to stop variants with mega amounts of heatsinks from being able to chain fire at too high a rate.

^^^ This.  The Heat Capacity on all 'mechs being twice what it is in CBT (with the free coolant) is the reason why we're getting the PPC hate, not the splash or damage levels.

If a pilot could only chain-fire those 4ERPPCs with 2-3 more seconds of enforced delay between each shot (ie. waiting to cool down) then folks wouldn't get irrate.

QFT.... <me forgets heat thread link>
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Offline (TLL)Siilk

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Re: Gauss rifles
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2010, 12:02:43 PM »
Honestly, the reason behind why the "big guns" are the only ones commonly used (PPC, Guass, UAC 20) is that the negatives of them have not been introduced yet. Firing a ppc causes immense heat and static, shorting your radar, as well as alerts others to your location, ecm or not. Gauss knocks you stupid, you fire it, and your mech has to recoil a bit, especially if it is running. The Autocannons can effing explode if your heat gets to high, or the weapon is fired too quickly. With these in the game, you will see the more reliable weapons being used much more. Until then, you will keep seeing these types of threads complaining about superweapons not being up to snuff.

 Hmm, if big guns would be more dangerous and less reliable, we'll see smaller weapons as much more appealing than they are now. But then again, weapon explosions  and jamming are disadvantages of all ACs, not only the biggest ones. In CBT, even MG ammo explosion could do you a lot of damage.

 The real downside of most hard hitting weapons in CBT is range or heat limitation. PPC and Gauss both had long range, but they are unusable in close combat due to minimum range penalty. But, while easily implemented for LRMs, making PPC and Gauss harder to use at close range in MWLL is almost impossible without some kind of handwaved artificial difficulty.

 As for the heat, it's accumulation/dissipation balance is totally ruined by free coolant every asset has in MWLL. After some analysis of energy boats in CBT vs MWLL, I came to a conclusion that "normal" heat dissipation ration are almost exactly the same. The only real differences are "panic button coolant usage" and overheat consequences. Let me elaborate this a little.

 Having coolant pod for free(that is no space of weight is occupied by it) means that energy boat can fire 3-4 barrages as fast as it's weapons can recycle without heat building high enough to cause shutdown. For mechs with multiple heat sinks, like NCat, it's even better as, with fast natural heat dissipation, only small amount of coolant is needed to keep heat at bay after every shot.

 Another problem is all-forgiving overheat: sure, you risk having your mech shut itself down, if overheated, but what does it actually do to you? If the enemy is nearby, he can have a couple of  shot at you, while you powering your mech up, but that's all. If there are no enemies around, you're safe. The worst heat-related issue you can have is an "overheat damage", dealt to your mech if the heat reaches the top of heat gauge. Sure, it's nasty but is it that bad? Especially if you can actually still can use coolant when in shutdown.

 Now CBT, it has some aces in it's sleeve when it comes to the high heat situations. First of all, making a piloting roll is not very easy for an average CBT mechwarrior, and overheating requires one roll to override the shutdown, one more to see if you could prevent ammo meltdown(and thus a nasty explosion that could instantly turn your mech into a burning wreck). Moreover, if mechs shuts down you'll risk falling down(which is dangerous by itself as mech could be damaged by falling), making your mech much easier to hit for every enemy around. And you'll have to make some more piloting rolls(quite hard, I assure you) to stand up after that. Keep in mind that every piloting roll becomes harder with heat raising up. And with real high heat comes unoverrideable shutdown. Then again, almost everything I mentioned here(high heat, falling, etc.) could cause pilot to loose his consciousness and/or suffer damage, which could eventually kill him, even with mech still intact.

 Now I understand that most of that(falling and getting up, for example) wouldn't be implemented in MWLL for technical reasons, I just want you to compare the severity of excessive heat in CBT and in MWLL. If every time you cross the red line you'll risk not only shutting your mech down but also falling, getting unconscious and frying your ammo, you'll think twice before firing once more PPC.

 So, here's my suggestion. Firstly, coolant pods should be optional and should count against space and weight limits when installed, while coolant efficiency could stay the same, or be toned down a little more. Secondly, MWLL needs much more severe consequences for overheating. As an example, introducing unoverrideable shutdown at high heat(heat bar touches the top), ammo explosions, blurred vision for a pilot(like we have for "walking in lava" moments) and inability to use coolant when mech is in shutdown could do the trick IMO.



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Offline Vlaad

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Re: Gauss rifles
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2010, 01:57:10 PM »
While heat issue is relevant I found many mechs to be right on spot with heat management except novacats. Simply, they are too forgiving. But this.



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Offline [pup]Socket

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Re: Gauss rifles
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2010, 02:20:16 PM »
for me i could sort of understand how coolant works if every heatsink has some extra coolant that can be used.  but if you say no all the coolant is in this external pod, then why would flushing coolant work the way it does?  if you run the same amount of coolant through each heatsink then it should take more coolant to flush more heatsinks.  a novacat with a bunch of double heatsinks should use up coolant much faster than something with only the heatsinks from the engine.  i guess that would make it sort of like one ton of coolant would be good for getting rid of 1000 degrees of heat.  but thats only if heatsinks dont each hold their own coolant.  no magic cpods that store the same amount of coolant for each heatsink but still weigh 1 ton no matter how many heatsinks there are.

Offline Brainwright

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Re: Gauss rifles
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2010, 04:40:02 PM »
The real downside of most hard hitting weapons in CBT is range or heat limitation. PPC and Gauss both had long range, but they are unusable in close combat due to minimum range penalty. But, while easily implemented for LRMs, making PPC and Gauss harder to use at close range in MWLL is almost impossible without some kind of handwaved artificial difficulty.

In CBT, the PPC minimum range was a matter of feedback.  You could fire a PPC below it's minimum range, but you would destroy the weapon.    I'm not too fond of a minimum range myself because getting close is too easy.  Many mechs simply wouldn't be able to pull back far enough to use PPCs as they would be in the turn-based CBT.   I suppose if overloading a PPC did a significant deal of secondary damage, like to electronics, a pilot could sacrifice one weapon in order to seriously screw up a persistent attacker.

However, gauss rifles are easy to limit.  Just give them an extremely (1 - .5 sec?) brief lock on time before firing to simulate the cumbersome nature of the weapon.  If you don't wait for the lock-on, you fire with an artificial "spread," like the devs hate so much.  At the very least, this would remove gauss as the weapon of choice across all ranges.  If you've ever taken an Uller B against an Uller A, you know exactly what I mean.

So, here's my suggestion. Firstly, coolant pods should be optional and should count against space and weight limits when installed, while coolant efficiency could stay the same, or be toned down a little more. Secondly, MWLL needs much more severe consequences for overheating. As an example, introducing unoverrideable shutdown at high heat(heat bar touches the top), ammo explosions, blurred vision for a pilot(like we have for "walking in lava" moments) and inability to use coolant when mech is in shutdown could do the trick IMO.

The problem with penalties for running hot is that mechs without mass heat sinks still linger at the red line longer than mechs without, so they're the ones who are going to feel it the most.

I'm starting to think that heat sinks should be a buffer against heat as much as a bar from which they subtract.  If you look at the heat numbers from CBT, that's kind of how it works.  Accumulated heat is determined after the cooling effect of the heat sinks has been calculated, so only high-heat mechs spike into the upper ranges immediately.  It's also impossible to spike heat extremely high because doing so would destroy the mech.  However, the current heat system has low-heatsink mechs building heat at a rate they can never put off while remaining active.  CBT mechs were never meant to linger at heat ranges that we do unless they had a very good heat exchange like with mechs using large amounts of heat sinks.

I've said it three times, and I'll say it a thousand more.  The rules of CBT don't matter.  The results do.  Follow the results closer than the rules.
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