NullSig and Chameleon Shield Suggestion

[(TLL) Heretic]

While we’re waiting on 0.4 getting finished, and inspired by DFDeltas radar signature thread (http://forum.mechlivinglegends.net/index.php/topic,10863.0.html ) I have been having thoughts on Stealth.

The following is a possible interpretation of Null Signature (for Clan) and the Chameleon Light Polarisation Shield (For IS) as it might work in-game; to do this requires a change to how the Passive-Active Sensors dynamic currently works.  For the sake of these examples, pretend that passive and ECM do not stack anymore (going passive turns off your ECM, which makes a lot of sense and coincidently works with DFDeltas "sensor signature size" idea quite nicely).

Null Sig and Chameleon Shield are both canon pieces of kit, but the following is based more on gameplay use, than the real CBT cost/effect balance. If you want the Sarna links to the technology I’m interpting here they are:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Null_Signature_System
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Chameleon_Light_Polarization_Shield
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Stealth_Armor


Null Sig GECM System:

For the Clanners, a development that takes GECM and combines it with sensor defeating armour (equivalent in protection to Standard armour). It is designed to break the IS C3 network & Longtom advantages. Null Sig can be applied to any ‘mech that has GECM installed and makes your detection on enemy sensors impossible *, this allows the Clan unit equipped with Null Sig to be invisible to sensors and only detectable via pilots eyes (reticule IFF still goes red to indicate a foe on mouse-over).  Null Sig therefore allows Clan ‘mechs to scout for the enemy with active sensors without being detected by the enemy ‘mechs sensors, therefor it’s  perfect for ambushes and sneak attacks.  NullSig does not work with BHP (would be OP) but will work with BAP.  Passive sensors are possible with NullSig but do not stack.

Null Sig can be turned on and off, when off the Null Sig acts as if the ‘mech had GECM active, when turned on the Null Sig makes the user totally invisible to sensors at a cost of a 50% reduction in the ‘mechs heatsink efficiency, as a bonus effect, while active it causes a 75% reduction in heat from enemy flamers, Infernos and PPCs (It closes the Heat Sink Vents when on).


Chameleon Light Polarsation Shield:

For the Inner Sphere side, the Chameleon Shield is armour that offers similar protection to standard amour **.  When active the Chameleon Shield use it’s mimetic armour to blend into the surrounding environment, becoming invisible to all but electronic sensors, or the reticule turning red on mouse-over (so it functions a lot like the original Crysis Stealth mode). When active the Mimetic armour causes heat buildup dependant on movement (causes no heat buildup if at full stop) allowing ‘mechs to walk or even sprint between cover while invisible (over short distances).  If the Heat bar reaches the redline the armour deactivates, and cannot be re-engaged until under the redline and with pilot re-activation.  It is possible to fire and remain cloaked with the Chameleon shield as long as the weapons fire does not push the redline and force deactivation.  The Chameleon shield cannot work with GECM, although it will work with AECM.



The BIG Downside of both systems:

Both systems cost a stack load of C-Bills, have inherent quirks (Nullsigs Heat Sink effects, Chameleons massive heat buildup on movement) but both systems also take up a lot of internal space in each area of the ‘mech, to simulate this all weapons pod sizes on any ‘mech carrying either of these systems is reduced by one class, therefore a Barrage pod would become an Assault pod, an Assault pod a Heavy pod on a Null Sig or Chameleon ‘mech, small pods are unaffected by this (for balance)***.



What might this mean in Mechlab:

In the example of a NullSig Shadow Cat the arms would only be able to carry up to a ERPPC or UAC10 sized weapon in the arms (without NullSig it can carry up to an UAC20 in the arms), and the ‘meh might have some heat problems when using the system, dependant on build, it would also cost somewhere in the region of 100k (instead of ~70k of the Standard non-ninja Shadow Cat).



Anyways it's just food for thought, but would fit well into the 3067 feel of MWLL IMO, and it's never been done before so it might be interesting to see if kept rare enough via pricing.


*Perhaps detectable to BHP at 200m, BAP at 100m for balance?
** My Chameleon Shield is a blend of Stealth armour and Cameleon Shield as seen in CBT for gameplay purposes.
*** Don't quote me on the pod size food-chain I'm guessing which are bigger.

[Frostiken]

So correct me if I have this right - nerf GECM, then reimplement it unnerfed and give it to the clans and make them pay out the ass for it.

Meanwhile the IS gets yet another toy.

My thoughts on this: All the clan tech in the game right now isn't quite as good as it's supposed to be - and I expect the Novacat to be brought into line (or just large energy weapons in general) as well. The idea behind Clan heavies is that they're supposed to be able to take on three IS heavies at once or something, I don't remember - point is, they're really, really good. But they're not *that* good in MWLL - they're slower than they're supposed to be, weapons aren't as good as they're supposed to be, heat efficiency on some mechs is garbage, and their own clan-specific toys don't even exist like zero-range LRMs.

So to make up for the power that clan mechs allegedly have (well they do in CBT) the dudes at FASA put in all kinds of neat IS-only technologies. Which we have - C3, MRMs, Long Toms, etc.

So my first thoughts are 'whoopee, clans get hosed again'. Am I wrong on this?

GECM is useful, no doubt. However, it's not *crucial*. We've all had fights and engagements with sensor-invisible mechs, and enough mechs don't sport GECM that just as often, you have no recourse for sensor invisibility, relying only on Passive. So an ECM suite that works 'kinda better' is hardly that useful in my eyes. It takes a useful tool and makes it a little more useful, but it's not a *VITAL* tool. In fact the first thing you said was that in order for the Null Sig system to be any use to anyone at all, you'd have to nerf GECM's functionality first in order to 'make space' in terms of functionality. That was a red flag for me right there that.

And the IS? Well the Chameleon system has no equal at all.



So - Clan gets GECM v2.0, and the IS gets - super invisible lol ur dead sniper invisible forever armor.

[(TLL)Siilk]

 Stealth armour, huh? Hmm... I'm torn here. On one hand, this is really nice implementation of said CBT gadgets in MWLL. On the other hand, I don't think I would like more stealth in the game, especially chameleon shield. Yes, it's canon, but the whole idea of invisible mech seems kinda silly to me. And, according to fluff, Clans don't like Null sig and don't really use it, even though they know how to build it. So, it's hard for me to say if I like the idea or not.

the Timberwolf has garbage heat efficiency, and the Shadow Cat just... isn't the same mech it used to be.

 Timber is supposed to be very hot, it's the flaw of most it's variants -- too many weapons to use all at once and not get toasted. As for SCat, I really can't see where you got that "isn't the same mech it used to be" stuff. MWLL SCat has the best performance so far, compared to SCats from any other MW game. "Flys like a butterfly, stings like a bee", and all that.

[(TLL)Sky_walker]

All the clan tech in the game right now isn't quite as good as it's supposed to be (...)The idea behind Clan heavies is that they're supposed to be able to take on three IS heavies at once

Not gonna happen. Game is suppose to be fun and playable for everyone, not just Clan might.

As for the OP idea - erm... it's one of techs like the HAG for me. Seems to be awesome, yet smells more like a fun-breaker.

Though in general I like the idea of introducing more electronic warfare in MWLL - but IMO that's not the best way for it. EMP damage model would be much more fun.

[(TLL) Heretic]

So correct me if I have this right - nerf GECM, then reimplement it unnerfed and give it to the clans and make them pay out the ass for it.

NullSig is actually more usefull, given the terrain of our maps and the number of Ravens feeding Longtoms and Snipers information.

Meanwhile the IS gets yet another toy and invisible snipers kill the fapp out of you.

Firstly, if you fire Energy weapons then your not going to stay hidden for long, fire Missiles or Ballistics and folks can see where you are...so hardly invisible snipers. It's key use is moving brawlers to cover without detection from eyeballs.  You have some scouts out, or are running active and Chameleon units won't stay hidden for long...even running passive, if you have them on radar then theres a big red bounding box over the passive invisible 'mech (remember GECM and Passive don't stack in this build)


My thoughts on this: All the clan tech in the game right now isn't quite as good as it's supposed to be - and I expect the Novacat to be brought into line (or just large energy weapons in general) as well. The idea behind Clan heavies is that they're supposed to be able to take on three IS heavies at once or something, I don't remember - point is, they're really, really good. But they're not *that* good in MWLL - especially since the Mad Dog has paper armor, the Timberwolf has garbage heat efficiency, and the Shadow Cat just... isn't the same mech it used to be.

TBH, 3to1 is not a good ratio for a MW game, would you like 3 IS heavies vs 1 uber Clan Heavy games?  You'd have your ass handed to you everytime in 3to1.  Plus, in the 3067 period it's more like 2to1, but that's beside the point.  In 10v10 (and not 30v10) matches you need balance between the sides, this means the IS machines hitting above their weight TBH.

So to make up for the power that clan mechs had the dudes at FASA put in all kinds of neat IS-only technologies. Which we have - C3, MRMs, Long Toms, etc.

So my first thoughts are 'whoopee, clans get hosed again'. Am I wrong on this?

Personally, I'd run ative with Nullsig (and use cover to avoid visual) any day over the Chameleon (running passive and hoping I'm not picked up on radar by getting too close) systems, but maybe that's just me, both are approaches to stealth, but from 2 different directions, thus making Clan and IS feel even more different.

GECM is useful, no doubt. However, it's not *crucial*. We've all had fights and engagements with sensor-invisible mechs, and enough mechs don't sport GECM that just as often, you have no recourse for sensor invisibility, relying only on Passive. So an ECM suite that works 'kinda better' is hardly that useful in my eyes. It takes a useful tool and makes it a little more useful, but it's not a *VITAL* tool. Whereas the Chameleon system has no equal at all.

Yeah, your kind of missing the points, but NM.

@Skywalker & Siilk, yup it's controversial, but then again innovation always is, would it be better than what we have now fun-wise, well there's only one way to find out, as we've never seen these features in any MW game before (Stealth has always been a minimum in MW games ).

[Frostiken]

All the clan tech in the game right now isn't quite as good as it's supposed to be (...)The idea behind Clan heavies is that they're supposed to be able to take on three IS heavies at once

Not gonna happen. Game is suppose to be fun and playable for everyone, not just Clan might.

I know it's not - but why do we keep putting in more and more of the IS toys that were designed originally to counter the massive clan advantage in firepower, when this advantage doesn't really exist?

NullSig is actually more usefull, given the terrain of our maps and the number of Ravens feeding Longtoms and Snipers information.

GECM by the book is supposed to defeat NARC and C3 - that's just the basic sensor package. GECM is already inferior because it doesn't do these things...

Firstly, if you fire Energy weapons then your not going to stay hidden for long, fire Missiles or Ballistics and folks can see where you are...so hardly invisible snipers.

So fire tactically and only fire weapons that are hard for someone to track. Move between shots, and use concealment. Obviously if they're looking right at you they're going to see you no matter what weapon you fire, but if they're distracted by enemy mechs, PPCs, AC-20s, maybe even Gauss would keep you safe enough. Does it even matter anyway? Sniping is more popular than ever in 0.3.X, and even without being invisible it works well enough - just go play Thunder Rift. Regardless of what you say, even if they ARE looking straight at you - Chameleon is going to offer significant concealment for a sniper simply because your mech is INVISIBLE. Hard to see where your shots are landing at medium/long ranges. You would probably even be able to walk away while under fire without them noticing (enemy weapons fire causes lots of visual fireworks, and assuming you're properly concealed, and invisible, it's going to be hard if not impossible to see what you're shooting). Now put it on an invisible mech standing in passive in a group of trees on Marshes? By the time someone finds you and dislodges you you're going to have done some serious damage.

It's key use is moving brawlers to cover without detection from eyeballs.  You have some scouts out, or are running active and Chameleon units won't stay hidden for long...even running passive, if you have them on radar then theres a big red bounding box over the passive invisible 'mech (remember GECM and Passive don't stack in this build)

It builds up stupid amounts of heat when moving quickly, ergo it's pointless for brawlers - they'd have to move so slowly they'll never get to the fight. You can say it's for brawlers all you want, but the fact that it builds no heat while stationary (why is this, anyway?) means everyone is going to use it for sniping. Even if you made weapons fire bring down the Chameleon it would still be useful for getting the first shot.

As for SCat, I really can't see where you got that "isn't the same mech it used to be" stuff. MWLL SCat has the best performance so far, compared to SCats from any other MW game. "Flys like a butterfly, stings like a bee", and all that.

With the UAC-20 nerf it lost a lot of burst damage - not to mention it lost a lot of firepower across the board in general. (Eat small lasers pew pew). Also it feels like it has weaker armor, and people have gotten good enough that you're going to lose an arm sooner rather than later.

[(TLL) Heretic]

@Frostiken, the point of brawlers using stealth is to get to their target range without taking fire, not to get their as fast as possible.  Walking cloaked might get you up to 300m to the next piece of cover, running might only get you 200m in the same scenario.

Passive Chameleoned snipers on ridges would still turn your reticule red when your sweep your view across the ridge-lines before and as you move out (you do this right?  You don't just run into trouble, you look around unless your a noob), having a BAP 'mech with active radar will snoop out passive chameleons at ~700m, a little comms (ie. teamwork) and the entire team knows (even without C3).

Of course the Chameleon Shield could create heat while stationary if there was a balance problem, but it's best for when you have a LB-20X or SSRM brawler and you have to close the gap without getting cored (even if they detect you they can only aim where they think the CT is, if you turned it might hit your arms instead, while you close or find cover).

GECM, as currently used by 90% of the community, is only an aid to passive sneaking, and destroys the EW aspect of the game by everyone running passive all the time anyways, at least this way if you wanted radar invisibility you'd have to pay for it (in weapons space and massive price increase and halved heat dissipation while active); rather than just sticking a GECM on a 'mech and pressing P, never to consider EW aspects again the entire match.

EDIT: An example of a NullSig ShadowCat vs Longtom with Bodyguard on Marshes in a pretend 0.3.2+Nullsig build: The Shadowcat would be sporting Nullsig, GECM, 2CUAC10s (or 2Dual CSSRM4s and a couple of ERMeds for example) with no Jumpjets and loosing a little armour while keeping the speed, cost would be 100k, so in reach of a good player who can afford to splash the 30k on the Nullsig).  The ShadowCat, by using nullsig and moving behind cover on the extreme of the map, could detect (active sensors) and close behing the LT and it's bodyguards, take the LT out with the UAC10s and sneak back into cover before the bodyguards or LT even knew the Shadow Cat was there.

An example of a Brawling Bushy in our pretend build using Chameleon, the bushy might be carrying some SRMs and a good array (6?) of Medium lasers while have reduced armour and keeping the same speed.  The Bushy picks up the enemy positions from C3 while active and works out where he has to be to provide unnoticed enfilade fire.  The Bushy goes passive and moves up, using cover, the bushy uses cover and Chameleon for the short bursts between cover to reach the chossen spot and can now medium range snipe at an unkowing enemy....or...the Bushy is spotted in it's manouverings by enemy sensors, the bushy still gets to the place it wanted to go, but damage is mitigated by being invisible and as such impossible to leg/arm or core easily.

[(TLL)Sky_walker]

All the clan tech in the game right now isn't quite as good as it's supposed to be (...)The idea behind Clan heavies is that they're supposed to be able to take on three IS heavies at once

Not gonna happen. Game is suppose to be fun and playable for everyone, not just Clan might.

I know it's not - but why do we keep putting in more and more of the IS toys that were designed originally to counter the massive clan advantage in firepower, when this advantage doesn't really exist?

Advantage does exist - maybe not 3:1 but it still does. Even despite of IS unique access to LongTom. Try any bigger games in CL vs IS mode.

GECM, as currently used by 90% of the community, is only an aid to passive sneaking,

Well, I for one quite rarely use passive radar while having GECM - if someone is close enough to see me under GECM than I want to kill him anyway

[Askis]

Aren't NullSig and Chameleon both lostech?

[(TLL)Siilk]

As for SCat, I really can't see where you got that "isn't the same mech it used to be" stuff. MWLL SCat has the best performance so far, compared to SCats from any other MW game. "Flys like a butterfly, stings like a bee", and all that.

With the UAC-20 nerf it lost a lot of burst damage - not to mention it lost a lot of firepower across the board in general. (Eat small lasers pew pew). Also it feels like it has weaker armor, and people have gotten good enough that you're going to lose an arm sooner rather than later.

 UAC20 nerf? Let me tell you about UAC20 nerf: UAC20 is powerful now to the point of being OP. It isn't burst damage any more, but unless you fail to track UAC's heat meter, you would lay a lot of hits on your target. UAC SCat can waste almost anything in no time while staying out of it's opponent view by using MASC. LBX SCat is also a terrifying opponent, even a single LBX20 could do horrible things. SCat C is great for long range kills and still good at point blank, the best medium mech in 0.3.2. Prime is a little lacking, compared to other variants, but fast refire rate of ERMBLs comes handy sometimes.

[SquareSphere }12thVR{]

... both are dangerously close to "jihad" era tech which is a line I rather we didn't cross or even get near :-/

I'd be happier with different systems like an IFF modulator which could just change your radar sig to the other side's IFF to the enemies' sensors for X number of seconds, which would be great for snooping scouts without having to go with "invisible cloak" tech.  Or even a Radar sig changer, where it could change the radar signature of a mech to appear as something else.  Like making an assault look like a light.

These would be easier to implement and wouldn't be "fun" breaking

Once we have different color skins or if a game is configed for IS v Clan.   I'd love to see a true IFF jammer that basically scrambles all radar (friendly and foe) in a certain radius.  If it was possible, to static out the radar making all fighting based on the eyes.  Narcs within the scramble field would only out put in a reduced range of 600m.  This helps reduce the outside  Arrow help unless they get closer.  Toms

[(TLL) Heretic]

Aren't NullSig and Chameleon both lostech?

Clans have NullSig but don't use it traditionally, the position in the 3050s was " the tenets of Clan honor find such stealth systems dishonorable and ceased research and production of the Null Signature System"  but who knows what happened after 3067 (that's where most of us draw the line, before the Whizkids stuff got silly), I for one could see Crusader clan using NullSig to counter cowardly LT strike from the Spheroid sub-humans; it's not like killing trueborns you know

The Chameleon is as I said above,a blend of Stealth armour and Cameleon Shield as seen in CBT for gameplay purposes .  If we want 100% lore then the IS should get the same NullSig system as well as the clans, but where would the IS/Clan difference be?  Blake forces use Mimetic armour on vehicles in the Jihad era, so assuming we're sometime around 3067 in MWLL (and everytime I see a 3067 machine, like a Shiva or Uziel I think TRO:3067) it would not be out of place for it to be showing up in ComGuard or Blakist forces, SLDF Spec Ops and even the Mercs working for them..in our non-jihad timeline

From some-time in the late 3050s: " exceedingly rare surviving examples from the original Star League, [so yes, some are lostech] with the Capellan Confederation the Successor State closest to recreating the system. While not yet able to produce a bolt for bolt, circuit for circuit replication, with typical Capellan ingenuity House Liao has developed a stop-gap solution suitable for mass-production, the so-called Stealth Armor.

So yes, the chameleon shield is a blend of several technologies, but based on something that might be available within the Lore and providing a different approach to stealth between the 2 sides...purely for gameplay reasons.

[~SJ~KorbinWimmer]

I just can't imagine any longer public match going well with visual stealth tech.  It would turn into 60% of each team camping stealthed and picking off the 4 opponents that could not afford stealth tech yet running around in lights.  Long range fire support definitely has it's place, but don't give them the option of invisibility.  It would make the public matches rather unfun imo.

[TheDrgnRbrn]

I would say I am on the fence about this. The tech is canon, but it feels very gimicky. If it was implemented properly, like the OP suggested, I could see it being very fun. Sneaking about in a nullsig Cougar or Vulture, or killing myself from heat buildup running around in a Camo Owens B? I can see lots of fun ways it could go down, but the idea of invisibility, whether it be real or just sensors, just doesnt fit very well with my view of the Battletech Universe. I like the idea, even so.

My thoughts on this: All the clan tech in the game right now isn't quite as good as it's supposed to be - and I expect the Novacat to be brought into line (or just large energy weapons in general) as well.

Wait.. the Ncat is.. UP??? What??? My shining example of clan tech is the CERPPC. Good god I have fallen head over heels for that weapon. Incredible range, incredible damage. The Novacat has four of these. Four. FOUR. This is enough to one-shot most light mechs. It is also enough to rip the arms off heavies and assaults. Anything you say about the Ncat being not uber enough will be invalid as long as this design is in game.

[~SJ~ Wolf]

All the clan tech in the game right now isn't quite as good as it's supposed to be (...)The idea behind Clan heavies is that they're supposed to be able to take on three IS heavies at once

Not gonna happen. Game is suppose to be fun and playable for everyone, not just Clan might.

I know it's not - but why do we keep putting in more and more of the IS toys that were designed originally to counter the massive clan advantage in firepower, when this advantage doesn't really exist?

NullSig is actually more usefull, given the terrain of our maps and the number of Ravens feeding Longtoms and Snipers information.

GECM by the book is supposed to defeat NARC and C3 - that's just the basic sensor package. GECM is already inferior because it doesn't do these things...

Firstly, if you fire Energy weapons then your not going to stay hidden for long, fire Missiles or Ballistics and folks can see where you are...so hardly invisible snipers.

So fire tactically and only fire weapons that are hard for someone to track. Move between shots, and use concealment. Obviously if they're looking right at you they're going to see you no matter what weapon you fire, but if they're distracted by enemy mechs, PPCs, AC-20s, maybe even Gauss would keep you safe enough. Does it even matter anyway? Sniping is more popular than ever in 0.3.X, and even without being invisible it works well enough - just go play Thunder Rift. Regardless of what you say, even if they ARE looking straight at you - Chameleon is going to offer significant concealment for a sniper simply because your mech is INVISIBLE. Hard to see where your shots are landing at medium/long ranges. You would probably even be able to walk away while under fire without them noticing (enemy weapons fire causes lots of visual fireworks, and assuming you're properly concealed, and invisible, it's going to be hard if not impossible to see what you're shooting). Now put it on an invisible mech standing in passive in a group of trees on Marshes? By the time someone finds you and dislodges you you're going to have done some serious damage.

It's key use is moving brawlers to cover without detection from eyeballs.  You have some scouts out, or are running active and Chameleon units won't stay hidden for long...even running passive, if you have them on radar then theres a big red bounding box over the passive invisible 'mech (remember GECM and Passive don't stack in this build)

It builds up stupid amounts of heat when moving quickly, ergo it's pointless for brawlers - they'd have to move so slowly they'll never get to the fight. You can say it's for brawlers all you want, but the fact that it builds no heat while stationary (why is this, anyway?) means everyone is going to use it for sniping. Even if you made weapons fire bring down the Chameleon it would still be useful for getting the first shot.

As for SCat, I really can't see where you got that "isn't the same mech it used to be" stuff. MWLL SCat has the best performance so far, compared to SCats from any other MW game. "Flys like a butterfly, stings like a bee", and all that.

With the UAC-20 nerf it lost a lot of burst damage - not to mention it lost a lot of firepower across the board in general. (Eat small lasers pew pew). Also it feels like it has weaker armor, and people have gotten good enough that you're going to lose an arm sooner rather than later.

Not to derail, but I have to ask...

Do you even play the mod or just post assumptions based on patches ago, or what others say?