In your face - weapon's knock back

[dCK-Ad_Hominem]

Hi everyone,

I have spent some time thinking about this and have decided to put this to discussion.

As many of you may know there are some weapons in MWLL that, in case they hit you, knock your HUD around and give you significant aiming problems. What I have come up with is that there aren't enough of those weapons. Here is how I would list it.

Weapons that should knock you around: Any kind of missile (BA srms excluded, or having only slightly), Gausses, PPCs, Large bore autocannons (10 or 20). Of all those weapons only PPCs have a significant effect which is just wrong for the following reasons:

Gauss slugs travel at super sonic speed and provide a huge effective physical mass, ergo they should shake your mech. Autocannons are, well, freaking grenades (large caliber) which also should shake you around. More so since they are short ranged weapons and by using them in this specific field you should be able to deny an enemy a proper counter strike (look at the trailer to Mechwarrior 5, realize how the Warhammer is unable to defend himself due to his aim being put to waste).

I will give you know 2 scenarios to further support this:

A beatstick and a Novacat C are fighting at close distance (400m). The Novacat chain fires its 4 CERPPCs, dealing massive damage to the enemy mech and throws the beatstick off aim which prevents it from firing its LBXs properly. By the time the Beatstick will have somewhat regained its aim the NCat will fire its next salvos (PPC 5 through 8 ) dealing even more damage to the beatstick. The end result will be that a 70ton long range mechs defeats a 90ton short range mech at short range due to the fact that it controlls the enemy's aim by firing its own weapons.

Now for a situation I have witnessed just yesterday. I was using a beatstick when suddenly I got hit. I turned around and saw CJW Makaan flying towards me with the UAC Shiva hitting me constantly. Even though he was using this heavy weapon load I could target him without a problem and shoot him down when it should in fact have been me that would simply have not had a chance to do so due to his sustained firing.

I suggest to implement this shaking more since A. It was present in MW3 and MW4 and B. Because it adds another element to the game and makes it more skill demanding as you would have to learn to evade enemy fire efficiently and how to keep an enemy under fire in order to reduce his defensive potential. By doing so the advantages the heavier weight classes have over the lighter ones would also be reduced and a Uac20 Shadow Cat would become a thread, even to assaults, again.

[(TLL)Siilk]

 Hmm... I'm not sure if we need more of that, than we currently have. All missiles(BA SRM included) and PPCs(again MP PPC too) are causing reticule shake. If we add large bore ACs to that list, with almost non-stop cockpit shake wouldn't it be too frustrating to play MWLL? With that said, while treating your suggestion as a somehow questionable, and purely theoretical for the time being, I want to add the following: a) the heavier the mech is the less it should shake; b) threaded vehicles should be free of that effect because they are much more stable when it comes to recoil or knock off; c)flying assets should be shaken by pretty much anything except for, obviously, lasers; d) level of cockpit/reticule shaking should be toned down in comparison to current PPC to prevent "SRM shitstorm" effect(think invincible NCat Cs and Mad Dog Bs), MW4-like reticule throw offs are way too much, gameplay-wise and quite unrealistic for a multi-ton, gyro-stabilized war machine. BTW, I'd love to see recoil added to Gauss, PPCs and ACs much more than mech shaking on impact.

[xInVicTuSx]

And please, lessen the shake for BA SRM and MpPPC, i realize its to help BA survive but it is annoying as balls.

[SquareSphere }12thVR{]

I'm against it, just because it would turn into who gets the first chain shot first.  CURRENT example. SRM vulture. If you chain fire the missles you can ruin the other pilots aim for a very significat amount of time ala "Stun Lock" which pisses off the pilot something fierce. The saving grace that this config can not one shot anything which give the other pilot a chance to fight back.

Now if you did the same thing for the weapons you list which tend to be high damage and can alpha some mechs... you're in for a world of "XYZ IS OP!!!"  Think about the ERPPC Nova Cat with it's hud shake.  Annoying right?, Now think of the MadCat with ERPPC and UAC10's that now cause shake. 

[xInVicTuSx]

Am I crazy? 
Why am I remembering being knocked around by the UAC10s on the Madcat??
They don't cause shake? 

As in causing the torso to change position?
Confused.

[SquareSphere }12thVR{]

The suggestion was to ADD knock effects to getting hit by a UAC10

[(TLL)KitLightning]

Why am I remembering being knocked around by the UAC10s on the Madcat??

They don't have a knockback effect iirc. Though it would be nice to see Ballistics in general have that, depended on the calliber size.

[dCK-Ad_Hominem]

They don't have a knockback effect iirc. Though it would be nice to see Ballistics in general have that, depended on the calliber size.

My point excatly.

[LordHack]

Now for a situation I have witnessed just yesterday. I was using a beatstick when suddenly I got hit. I turned around and saw CJW Makaan flying towards me with the UAC Shiva hitting me constantly. Even though he was using this heavy weapon load I could target him without a problem and shoot him down when it should in fact have been me that would simply have not had a chance to do so due to his sustained firing.

Completely ignoring the substance of your post, ^^ this is fail and he deserves to die.

[MerfMerf]

I can agree that it would be nice to have some effects like these across the board, but I would advice extreme caution. Like squaresphere I fear the first-hit-win syndrome. As for the examples, I would argue that there are other issues with the Nova Cat then the shake 

/Merf - "Shake it baby"

[dCK-Ad_Hominem]

@Merf:

Don't get me wrong. I am not favoring a one hit and you aim into the sky/ground phenomenon either. I just wanted to point out that I consider it unbalanced that a mech with a range of 900m (as broken as it may be otherwise) has the possibility to shake your cockpit so hard that even your missiles have problems to lock on to it. A decrease in PPC shake and the presence of at least some AC10/20 shake would be to wish for however, since that would be realistic and is, in my eyes, a decissive argument for UACs, since it makes them as efficient as they are at short range.

@LordHack:

Though I may agree that flying towards a beatstick in an angle so that it can target you is a fail move I still cannot ignore that tracking him this easily (even waiting for him to get closer) marked his death. Take into consideration that I was hit by, what would be, an UAC60. No matter how heavy a mech, no gyro would be able to balance this out, according to canon.

[Spanish Inquisition]

Well, the first problem is deciding how the shake works. You don't want it proportional to weapon size, as large weapons in chain fire would simply pace their shots out at a second or two between shots, and AC10s/SRMs would be chain fired in streams as they are currently used.

Then you'd have to decide what weapons deserve having shake. Give it to too many weapons, and it becomes a novelty instead of a tactical choice. I know in the novels and tabletop, that if you took enough damage (10 points?), you'd have to take a piloting skill test to compensate for loss of armour. However, I think that'd be unfeasible as well, since you'd just boat any weapon and start beating on people.

[SquareSphere }12thVR{]

Just be aware that if the shake is overly effective, BOATS will be built around chain firing those weapons.  This will probably lead to people chain fire SHAKE weapons, while others will load up with ALPHA LEGGING configs to combat it.  Can't continuously shake me if you're looking at the sky.

[=KoS= Tripod]

I would like it if serious shake (like current PPC) was only on 350m and less ranged non-energy weapons and non-"chainfire rape" weapons like gauss that should have knockback (usually not enough gausses for anything serious). Any non-energy, including low-med damage "chainfire rape" weapons with ranges longer than 350 meters (AC 10, Rac 5, etc) will have less shake.

This would give brawlers a chance against energy whores that can slice you up easily at any range while you have to take the heat the entire way there.
It would also decrease the chance of "ghost" gauss shots, where you don't even notice your mech is falling apart because the sound didn't play.

The fact that med range weapons can still cause shake means that units carrying them can throw down suppressing fire on the line of snipers we usually see late game from a moderate range and help brawlers advance to their knockback range, where they can break the trench warfare.

This would decrease Clan Heavy spam (those things are basically untouchable if you play right) and give sniper mechs more of a niche than just a 30 second head start in any fight they get into with non-snipers.

This would also give assault brawlers a chance to create some major shock and awe "line-breaking" moments because the amount of shake they are causing just makes sticking around suicide.

[CHHš Aurailius]

We have already looked at this issue, but i obviously cant say what we did precisely.