Author Topic: Targeting Computer  (Read 8423 times)

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Offline Barcode

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Re: Targeting Computer
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2010, 05:06:54 PM »
Both in-universe and in-game, I think the TC should at least show a visual cue in the HUD for "leading" the selected target, which would be especially useful for taking down VTOLs and Aeros (or MASCing Firemoths). Probably could include some sort of adjustment to "harmonization" so that weapons on different arms will converge their fire at target's current range instead of shooting left and right past the target (which they can do if pointed straight forward).
Lead indicator is my favourite interpretation of this TC so far.

Offline ~SJ~NotSoCoolJ

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Re: Targeting Computer
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2010, 11:00:01 PM »
Both in-universe and in-game, I think the TC should at least show a visual cue in the HUD for "leading" the selected target, which would be especially useful for taking down VTOLs and Aeros (or MASCing Firemoths). Probably could include some sort of adjustment to "harmonization" so that weapons on different arms will converge their fire at target's current range instead of shooting left and right past the target (which they can do if pointed straight forward).
Lead indicator is my favourite interpretation of this TC so far.

Well you know I agree. ;) That's exactly what a lead computing optical sight is. LCOS Lots of AA vehicles have them since the 50's. Airplanes got them in WWII. ;)

Offline MatthewPryde

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Re: Targeting Computer
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2010, 07:40:46 AM »
Every mech in MWLL fires as if it has a targeting computer anyway.

 You mean "no deviation from the crosshair" part? I'm not sure that's what TC means CBT. Could you elaborate your point a little?

Yeah, of course, my bad, sometimes I assume everyone's played the original game already, so happily, I explain:

Targeting computer allows you to target particular portions of the enemy mech, these parts are Center Torso, Right, Left Torsos, L,R, arm and leg. They add a +3 to your hit modifier, so its actually more difficult to make the called shot. This keeps everyone from simply yelling "CT!!!!!" over and over, which isn't very fun. So if you had a 6 to hit (meaning you need to roll at least 6 with 2d6) you now have a 9 to hit, but if it hits, you know the shot will hit the enemy's center toso (if you called center torso)

Why I say everything has TC in mechwarrior is because its simply point and click. You point the cursor at the right torso and fire, the shot goes into the right torso. There is no need to implement this feature, because it is inherent in gameplay, although immensely better as it is more accurate than the TC in Battletech, with absolutely no negative. So essentially, free super TC's for all and to all a good night!

Disclaimer: This is not an opening for a debate on random fire in MWLL, I will slap you if you use it as such. I will find your addresses, most of you shop at IWM and I have your addresses. I will find you, and I will slap you.
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Offline (TLL)Siilk

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Re: Targeting Computer
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2010, 10:12:44 AM »
Every mech in MWLL fires as if it has a targeting computer anyway.

 You mean "no deviation from the crosshair" part? I'm not sure that's what TC means CBT. Could you elaborate your point a little?

Yeah, of course, my bad, sometimes I assume everyone's played the original game already, so happily, I explain:

Targeting computer allows you to target particular portions of the enemy mech, these parts are Center Torso, Right, Left Torsos, L,R, arm and leg. They add a +3 to your hit modifier, so its actually more difficult to make the called shot. This keeps everyone from simply yelling "CT!!!!!" over and over, which isn't very fun. So if you had a 6 to hit (meaning you need to roll at least 6 with 2d6) you now have a 9 to hit, but if it hits, you know the shot will hit the enemy's center toso (if you called center torso)

 I know CBT game mechanics pretty well, what I was asking about is why do you thought it translate to forst person realtime as "no deviation from the crosshair".

Why I say everything has TC in mechwarrior is because its simply point and click. You point the cursor at the right torso and fire, the shot goes into the right torso. There is no need to implement this feature, because it is inherent in gameplay, although immensely better as it is more accurate than the TC in Battletech, with absolutely no negative. So essentially, free super TC's for all and to all a good night!

 No, you're wrong here, especially the bold part. Yes, most weapons(except (U)ACs and some missiles, but that's not the point) shoot exactly at crosshair. BUT! Keeping crosshair at where you want to shoot -- that is a problem. Your mech or your target rocks on tarain features, you accidentally move your mouse hand, enemy uses evasive maneuvers, your target lead is inaccurate or your target is just too far away to see it well enough to target anything specific: all those factors change "You point the cursor at the right torso and fire, the shot goes into the right torso" into "You try point the cursor at the right torso and fire, the shot goes the right torso as long as you can overcome all the interfering factors". It's not like we all shoot at a targeting range, there are a lot of conditions that are preventing us form achieving perfect accuracy. MWLL TC is supposed to help you overcome those conditions. Most CBT penalties translates to MWLL as interferences in keeping reticule on desired target. Just think: CBT to-hit penalty for target that was moving -- it's exactly what we feel when we play MWLL and think "moving mech is harder to hit than stationary". Many other penalties work the same way and those who don't should be(for example high mech heat should result in blurred vision, like when you walk on lava at Inferno, to make piloting and targeting harder). So your "free TC in every mech" statement is completely off here.
 



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Offline MatthewPryde

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Re: Targeting Computer
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2010, 10:42:01 AM »
All of that would absolutely be within the confines of what a targeting computer does. It still stands that every mech is equipped with a targeting computer. Only difference is that you have a chance of missing your target, and getting something else in MWLL. This is an all or nothing shot in CBT.
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Offline (TLL)Siilk

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Re: Targeting Computer
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2010, 12:40:38 PM »
It still stands that every mech is equipped with a targeting computer.

 No, it's not. You haven't presented any arguments to counter what I brought up in my previous post.

Only difference is that you have a chance of missing your target, and getting something else in MWLL. This is an all or nothing shot in CBT.

 Again, it's not. You can miss the part you targeted. Or you can miss entirely. It's as close as it can be to the CBT mechanics.



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Offline MatthewPryde

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Re: Targeting Computer
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2010, 07:11:35 PM »
It still stands that every mech is equipped with a targeting computer.

 No, it's not. You haven't presented any arguments to counter what I brought up in my previous post.

Only difference is that you have a chance of missing your target, and getting something else in MWLL. This is an all or nothing shot in CBT.

 Again, it's not. You can miss the part you targeted. Or you can miss entirely. It's as close as it can be to the CBT mechanics.
Ugh, because I am far too tired right now to argue this. As it is ridiculous.

fine.

Quote
Your mech or your target rocks on tarain features, you accidentally move your mouse hand, enemy uses evasive maneuvers, your target lead is inaccurate or your target is just too far away to see it well enough to target anything specific: all those factors change "You point the cursor at the right torso and fire, the shot goes into the right torso" into "You try point the cursor at the right torso and fire, the shot goes the right torso as long as you can overcome all the interfering factors". It's not like we all shoot at a targeting range, there are a lot of conditions that are preventing us form achieving perfect accuracy.

There are always confounding variables ever present in CBT that you expressly said, Distance to target, if the target is moving, if YOU are moving, is the target in woods, is it raining, is the target hungry and is it in fact tuesday? Oh well PPC's are less effective Tuesdays. (The last one is a joke there, disclaimer to prevent additional arguments of "That's not in the game!") These are all in the game system, and are present when you shoot (Except for lasers, but I think that is what the Modders of this mod designed it for.). Keeping the target in the appropriate position is a game living out those modifiers. TC does not effect these modifiers in any way.

Quote
"You try point the cursor at the right torso and fire, the shot goes the right torso as long as you can overcome all the interfering factors"
Yes it is still all or nothing in CBT. If you fail to roll a 9, you do not get a hit. At all. Only if it connects, THEN glances, will the damage instead splash onto another adjacent part of a body. In MWLL you can essentially fire in a mech's general area and hope for something good (Sort of like a TacOps called shot now that I think about it, but again without an accuracy decrease). But again, one is a FPS, the other is a tabletop Wargame/RPG.

Quote
MWLL TC is supposed to help you overcome those conditions

Really? I thought it didn't exist yet and that's why you're asking for it here? How could you possibly know that? If you mean the game's ingame targeting computer on every mech, then fine, but you do realize by your own volition that validates my point and we can stop this discussion now, but if the TC does assist in that way then it's not canon so I don't really see how you can be arguing with me about it using CBT rules. After all, I am just the CBT guy, if you want to have a MWLL/ Mechassault/ Mechwarrior 4 Debate, contact the MWLL Seven samurai or whatever development team, Jodan Wiseman at Smith and Tinker, or Microsoft Game Studios, of course to each respectively.

Quote
Most CBT penalties translates to MWLL as interferences in keeping reticule on desired target. Just think: CBT to-hit penalty for target that was moving -- it's exactly what we feel when we play MWLL and think "moving mech is harder to hit than stationary". Many other penalties work the same way and those who don't should be(for example high mech heat should result in blurred vision, like when you walk on lava at Inferno, to make piloting and targeting harder). So your "free TC in every mech" statement is completely off here.

Nope. Already explained. Also high heat if you were doing it in CBT, should fail your coolant, make you move slower, increase damage and critical hits, and make you explode if you keep riding above heat level time and time again like most people do due to an accumulation of Coolant failures. This should also increase the chances of catastrophic cascading engine failure. (Mech's don't actually go nuke)

In closing, there. All points refuted, existence of a targeting like assistance built into every mech and readily available at no cost to the player character other than the purchase of the original asset is established, and I do not really see room for argument. Well, now, back to work I suppose. Again Siilk not trying to appear rude or mean in any way, its just that the argument is neither true, sound or valid.

- Till next time mech fans! (Grumbles and goes off to write moar books! Rikken frakken deadlines...)
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Offline HAARP

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Re: Targeting Computer
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2010, 08:33:03 PM »
gotta love Matt :>
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Offline (TLL)Siilk

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Re: Targeting Computer
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2010, 05:40:30 AM »
Quote
Your mech or your target rocks on tarain features, you accidentally move your mouse hand, enemy uses evasive maneuvers, your target lead is inaccurate or your target is just too far away to see it well enough to target anything specific: all those factors change "You point the cursor at the right torso and fire, the shot goes into the right torso" into "You try point the cursor at the right torso and fire, the shot goes the right torso as long as you can overcome all the interfering factors". It's not like we all shoot at a targeting range, there are a lot of conditions that are preventing us form achieving perfect accuracy.

There are always confounding variables ever present in CBT that you expressly said, Distance to target, if the target is moving, if YOU are moving, is the target in woods, is it raining, is the target hungry and is it in fact tuesday? Oh well PPC's are less effective Tuesdays. (The last one is a joke there, disclaimer to prevent additional arguments of "That's not in the game!") These are all in the game system, and are present when you shoot (Except for lasers, but I think that is what the Modders of this mod designed it for.). Keeping the target in the appropriate position is a game living out those modifiers. TC does not effect these modifiers in any way.

 And could you, please, explain why do you think so? Because I think it's exactly what TC is supposed to do: helping you to hit your target.

Quote
"You try point the cursor at the right torso and fire, the shot goes the right torso as long as you can overcome all the interfering factors"
Yes it is still all or nothing in CBT. If you fail to roll a 9, you do not get a hit. At all. Only if it connects, THEN glances, will the damage instead splash onto another adjacent part of a body. In MWLL you can essentially fire in a mech's general area and hope for something good (Sort of like a TacOps called shot now that I think about it, but again without an accuracy decrease). But again, one is a FPS, the other is a tabletop Wargame/RPG.

 Yes, you can "fire in a mech's general area and hope for something good" and still miss the mech entirely.

Quote
MWLL TC is supposed to help you overcome those conditions

Really? I thought it didn't exist yet and that's why you're asking for it here? How could you possibly know that? If you mean the game's ingame targeting computer on every mech, then fine, but you do realize by your own volition that validates my point and we can stop this discussion now,

 Ok, I'll explain this one once more: TC, that I want MWLL mechs to have, is supposed to help you overcome those conditions; that's what I want it to do. Got it now? And no, I don't think MWLL mechs have TC now, just the standard targeting electronics.

but if the TC does assist in that way then it's not canon so I don't really see how you can be arguing with me about it using CBT rules. After all, I am just the CBT guy, if you want to have a MWLL/ Mechassault/ Mechwarrior 4 Debate, contact the MWLL Seven samurai or whatever development team, Jodan Wiseman at Smith and Tinker, or Microsoft Game Studios, of course to each respectively.

 Oh really? I cannot argue with you because of you what, a hired BT fiction writer? I don't remember you being one of the makers of CBT rules. Now I'm not intended to insult you in any way, but I fail to see how your FASA or S&T employment makes your interpretation of CBT rules  automatically superior. Again, if you know somethign about TC fluff that laymen don't, pray, share that knowledge with us. As for me, I find this passage below(bold part especially) meaning pretty much what I said:  TC helps pilot hit desired target with direct fire non-missile weapons. 
 
Quote from: sarna.net
The Targeting Computer can be used to help aim all direct fire weapons, including most energy and ballistic weapons. This results in a -1 to-hit modifier for all eligible weapons that tie in, or the ability to aim for a location that is not the head with a +3 to-hit penalty.

 My original quote:
 
Your mech or your target rocks on tarain features, you accidentally move your mouse hand, enemy uses evasive maneuvers, your target lead is inaccurate or your target is just too far away to see it well enough to target anything specific: all those factors change "You point the cursor at the right torso and fire, the shot goes into the right torso" into "You try point the cursor at the right torso and fire, the shot goes the right torso as long as you can overcome all the interfering factors". It's not like we all shoot at a targeting range, there are a lot of conditions that are preventing us form achieving perfect accuracy. MWLL TC is supposed to help you overcome those conditions.


 I fail to see why are you think that helping to overcome such difficulties is not "can be used to help aim all direct fire weapons".

Quote
Most CBT penalties translates to MWLL as interferences in keeping reticule on desired target. Just think: CBT to-hit penalty for target that was moving -- it's exactly what we feel when we play MWLL and think "moving mech is harder to hit than stationary". Many other penalties work the same way and those who don't should be(for example high mech heat should result in blurred vision, like when you walk on lava at Inferno, to make piloting and targeting harder). So your "free TC in every mech" statement is completely off here.

Nope. Already explained.

 You haven't. You only point out in your original post that we have CBT "called shots" in MWLL, but that's not the only(and not the most important for FPS environment) TC feature. BTW, in your opinion, how does TC work fluff-wise and why, again fluff-wise, mechs without TC cannot aim specific parts of their target?
 
Also high heat if you were doing it in CBT, should fail your coolant, make you move slower, increase damage and critical hits, and make you explode if you keep riding above heat level time and time again like most people do due to an accumulation of Coolant failures. This should also increase the chances of catastrophic cascading engine failure. (Mech's don't actually go nuke)

 I know this and I'm all for having in MWLL.

In closing, there. All points refuted, existence of a targeting like assistance built into every mech and readily available at no cost to the player character other than the purchase of the original asset is established, and I do not really see room for argument.

 Targeting assistance in MWLL? In what form? Having your weapons not deviating from reticule is hardly an assistance, more like a normal functioning of a sophisticated war machine.

Again Siilk not trying to appear rude or mean in any way, its just that the argument is neither true, sound or valid.

 Interestingly enough, I can say the same about your arguments.



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Offline (TLL)Sky_walker

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Re: Targeting Computer
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2010, 08:42:20 AM »
Yes, you can "fire in a mech's general area and hope for something good" and still miss the mech entirely.
It doesn't happen really. Remind yourself a brawls in Maulers - did you ever missed another Mauler which is less than 100 meters away from you? Not possible unless you intend to do this.

Also high heat if you were doing it in CBT, should fail your coolant, make you move slower, increase damage and critical hits, and make you explode if you keep riding above heat level time and time again like most people do due to an accumulation of Coolant failures. This should also increase the chances of catastrophic cascading engine failure. (Mech's don't actually go nuke)
I know this and I'm all for having in MWLL.
+1 :)

In closing, there. All points refuted, existence of a targeting like assistance built into every mech and readily available at no cost to the player character other than the purchase of the original asset is established, and I do not really see room for argument.
Targeting assistance in MWLL? In what form?
HTAL combined with 100% perfect predictable accuracy no matter what direct fire weapon you use. That's why you can pin-point Mech head from 900 meters with all your CERPPCs.
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Offline (TLL)Siilk

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Re: Targeting Computer
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2010, 02:58:10 PM »
Yes, you can "fire in a mech's general area and hope for something good" and still miss the mech entirely.
It doesn't happen really. Remind yourself a brawls in Maulers - did you ever missed another Mauler which is less than 100 meters away from you? Not possible unless you intend to do this.

 That is only true as long as there's no interference. Have you ever shoot the sky(or ground in front of you) because of your mech bumped on a small rock and shook like when it's starts/stops? Or if you just caught your mech' leg in a chain link fence? Or just stuck in a tree? I know I did, quite numerous times. In CBT when you miss, you see bad luck with dice, but that imaginary 3/3 mech pilot just had a nasty rock under it's mech foot. You feel like I rarely miss, but still, I miss mechs completely, much more often that I'd wanted to, even though I'm a 2/2 pilot. ;)



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Offline MatthewPryde

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Re: Targeting Computer
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2010, 12:29:23 AM »
Right well, that's yet another wall of text. Obviously you have something in mind. It isn't battletech nor will it make sense but by all means feel free to continue. I took the time to answer your question. Sorry it wasn't the answer you wanted.
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Offline Taemien

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Re: Targeting Computer
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2010, 07:08:04 PM »
If a Mech loses its sensors, it cannot fire any weapons. I'd imagine this is due to them being integral to the targeting systems. Can't hit what you can't see.

"But can't the MechWarrior see the target through the Cockpit?"

Yes.

However the Pilot doesn't aim his weapons, he points his mech at the target. The Sensory computers do the aiming. A targeting computer enhances this. Thats why your attacks get that -1 bonus.

How would we make a T-Computer work in MWLL? The only way I can think of without pissing everyone off requiring locks with Gauss, PPCs, Lasers, and Autocannons (sans the T-comp) is to light up the target like it does when you try to lockon with missiles. Then to simulate the called shot mechanic, you can select which part you wish to be the focus and it glows a different color then the rest of the mech.

Would that be worth the tonnage? I don't know. They could flub it a bit and reduce the tons needed to mount it.

Offline HAARP

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Re: Targeting Computer
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2010, 07:29:30 PM »

They could flub it a bit and reduce the tons needed to mount it.
ಠ_ಠ

Everything but MW3's 1-ton taccomps. Seriously.
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Re: Targeting Computer
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2010, 04:28:15 AM »
(...)

My idea posted long time ago (0.2 era, but too lazy to search for the post):

Short term (u know, lazy and so on):
Targeting computer: Weapons fire like atm, pinpoint to the crosshair.
Targeting computer out of duty (due to PPC-effect): weapons fire simply straight ahead without focus to crosshair.