VTOLs in 0.3.2

[=KoS= Saber15]

Not really Saber - VTOLs can work like Raven - for scout purpose, they'd be much better than Raven actually cause they can go everywhere much quicker. It's just that current configs don't use this possibility at all, which is a pity.

The Sparrowhawk B has all the equipment of a Raven, but it's way harder to hit than a Raven and moves much faster than a VTOL.

VTOLs would need more firepower if they needed to constantly poptart from behind cover to not die.

[(TLL)Siilk]

the Hawkmoth is KingLeers personal pet vehicle, and I don't really see him nerfing his 35 60ton flying cheeseboat any time soon...(yes I went there) 

ROTFL

 I expect KingLeer's Hawkmoth D raiding this thread any time now.

[(TLL)Sky_walker]

Not really Saber - VTOLs can work like Raven - for scout purpose, they'd be much better than Raven actually cause they can go everywhere much quicker. It's just that current configs don't use this possibility at all, which is a pity.

The Sparrowhawk B has all the equipment of a Raven, but it's way harder to hit than a Raven and moves much faster than a VTOL.

VTOLs would need more firepower if they needed to constantly poptart from behind cover to not die.

But Sparrowhawk B is always moving very fast, meaning that it's quite difficult to keep constant C3 on a group of enemies, and it can be killed in a single LBX wraith valley, while Hawkmoth can stand (relatively) still in one position giving constant feed to team, and have much much better survivability.
I for one would gladly see something like... BHP, C3, GECM, NARC, LRM5 Hawkmoth for a scout purpose. IMO it'd work great, and that's the path most of VTOLs in future might take instead of being a balloon dropping sand bags on enemies... aside from role of hit & run cavalry on other configs ofq.

[Evgen]

But Sparrowhawk B is always moving very fast, meaning that it's quite difficult to keep constant C3 on a group of enemies, and it can be killed in a single LBX wraith valley, while Hawkmoth can stand (relatively) still in one position giving constant feed to team, and have much much better survivability.

With current Sparrowhawk you can keep control on very very low speed. It can almost hover and it is possible to land it even on VTOL pad. It is not hard to get behind hills and circle in safety transmitting data to your team mates. This is basically what I am doing now due to useless VTOLs.
Yes, Sparrowhawk can be killed in no time but with such speed, maneuverability and knowledge when to use passive radar it can recon and narc quite good even if there are more then 2 AA deployed around. Current VTOL can't even dream to do something useful when there is at least 1 skilled partisan deployed (except Ballooning ofc, but ballooning VTOL is easy prey for aero).

I saw that someone mentioned that VTOL has more armor then Osiris, but I never saw that Osiris died so fast as VTOL from kinetic weapon like AC or MG. 

I for one would gladly see something like... BHP, C3, GECM, NARC, LRM5 Hawkmoth for a scout purpose. IMO it'd work great, and that's the path most of VTOLs in future might take instead of being a balloon dropping sand bags on enemies... aside from role of hit & run cavalry on other configs ofq.

one LRM5 looks quite useless. Imo, double MG to deal with BA and annoy Aero would be more appropriate for proposed variant. 

[(TLL) Heretic]

I saw that someone mentioned that VTOL has more armor then Osiris, but I never saw that Osiris died so fast as VTOL from kinetic weapon like AC or MG. 

MGuns as well as Class 2&5 ACs, UACs, RACs and all classes of LBX do x3 damage against BA, VTOLs & ASF, which is why they kill ASF and VTOLs relatively fast when compared to say Lasers. Gauss is nerfed damage versus these targets (a left over nerf from 0.2 when a gauss round would kill any ASF, and no longer required - ie. harmful to gameplay- in 0.3.2).

How many Gauss shots does your Osiris take before being cored? 2 Gauss slugs to the CT should about do it (in ideal circumstances 2 Gauss and a SRM4 to the CT of a Uller will kill it).  2 Gauss to the extremities of all light 'mechs will most rip off the arms or leave the legs with a few pixels of armour.

How many Gauss slugs will kill your VTOL?  well 6 to the CT (Body) or >2 to the sides.

BTW, killing Osiris with AC2s and 5s takes no time if you can lead them well (Osiris can't really climb & dive while evading like the VTOLs, plus they are slower and easier to hit), eassier to kill an Osiris than a VTOL in most battlefield encounters, and that's with the x3 damage modifier for those weapons against VTOLs being taken into consideration.


Don't just take my word for it, try killing VTOLs  with any other weapons than the LBXs or class2&5 autocannons (SRMs, Lasers, MRMs, PPCs etc etc) and you'll find out that these weapons kill light 'mechs much faster than a "fragile" 30ton VTOL.  Grab a huit prime and your killing most light 'mechs (CT Kill) in ~4seconds, go play a Huit and test that out, you'll be very surprised.



Interesting Thought to take home #325:

A good point was made about VTOL armour being increased in MWLL, and weapons pod tons increased to emulate the fact that VTOLs are used in squadrons (so the same buffing philosophy as is used with the BA -  1 BA has the firepower of 5BA in CBT (they work in squads of ~5 in CBT), and I have to agree that the idea of this mechanic is sound for gameplay, because let's face it, if BA or VTOLs were as weak as in CBT no-one would ever use them .........However.......VTOLs have a double bonus, they get the firepower increase, but unlike the BAs buff in armour of ~x2 the VTOLs have a buff in armour of ~x10....making them the heaviest armoured vehicle you can buy at the start (can take more punishment than a Partisan 80ton tank that you can buy at Warrior rank or with a donation at startup).  If the VTOLs armour was ~x3-4  from the CBT figures, then dual gauss to the CT (Body) would turn that area black, and if they both hit the same side it would be one dead VTOL...that would be more believable and better gameplay than we have at the moment IMO.


So in the final analysis of 0.3.2s VTOLs I believe I have shown that the VTOL has the best survivability of any starting vehicle, is virtually immune to anything carried on the starter 'mechs other than Class 2 & 5 ACs (and pilot skill being equal the VTOLs agility means that it is still more survivable than the starting 'mechs and tanks to those AA weapons, plus with it's firepower it can easily kill the starter AA machines such as the AA Uziel, AA Hollander or AA Harasser).  This is why I shout abuse at any Vet I see grabbing a VTOL at the start of a 4v4 game, anyone who does that is just griefing IMO.



@Siilk, pfft, I'll see the Hawk Moth Alt D and raise you the Hawk Moth Alt. WTF,  at 6000tons it's as heavy as a Light VTOL can be in MWLL, and this enables it to carry an Assault 'mech launcher on each wing (not the AML20, that would be silly, it fires the AML10 with 10 Assault 'mechs per salvo, 120 'mechs stored in the launcher for free and 3,000 tons for ammo), firing anything lighter than Assaults (Like the NovaCat-ML20, that everyone says they want) would just ruin it's character and iconic status 

[Brainwright]

Use L-CTRL to crouch in any 'Mech for increased elevation of weapons.  Some 'Mechs (like the Novacat) get a bonus, allowing for a 75' up-angle, which is pretty generous in my book.

Here's a fun comment that colors yours fairly well :

Thunderbolt's take a lot of skill and practice to use properly against moving targets. It's just a lot of people are dumb and slam on their brakes when they see a plane flying towards them.

Why are they slamming on their brakes?  So they can crouch.  Apparently, it's balanced so that one-hit kill aeros have a chance to shoot at mechs that stop to try shooting them.  This is what's wrong with the current air to ground balance : most ground assets can't fire at them without suffering.

Not only is the control clumsy, but the crouching process also takes too damned long.  There's almost a full second of wait after you end crouching before you move.  In addition, most air assets can still hover within a mech's increased angle of fire.   Given all this, I can only conclude that crouching wasn't meant to help you engage air assets that are actually attacking you.

If this situation was remedied, weapons like lasers might become useful shooting aerospace.  As it stands, you can only get one shot before the thing flies away, and it's pretty damned silly.

[~SJ~ Wolf]

Not only is the control clumsy, but the crouching process also takes too damned long.  There's almost a full second of wait after you end crouching before you move.  In addition, most air assets can still hover within a mech's increased angle of fire.   Given all this, I can only conclude that crouching wasn't meant to help you engage air assets that are actually attacking you.

If this situation was remedied, weapons like lasers might become useful shooting aerospace.  As it stands, you can only get one shot before the thing flies away, and it's pretty damned silly.

Not to mention whatver causes your machine to suddenly spin in cicrles or appear to fall over after you come to that full stop. Love that bug. Nothing like having an aero start its run, you hit full stop and then WHEEEEEEEEEEE MECH TITL A WHIRL, FBOMB BOOM dead........

[~SJ~NotSoCoolJ]

I took the LT Gauss Harasser yesterday as AA on frosty. It took exactly three LT Gauss and half the clip from two Miniguns to kill Hack from full health. My prognosis is, that is a bit excessive. RAC2 Partisan would have killed him about 50x faster. Holly C would have downed it about 10x faster. You should be rewarded for hit's with the LT Gauss a bit more. Only your most experienced players can do that consistently. I prefer the LT Gauss Harasser because it's damage against mechs is greater than all the others aside from the prime. I would be nice if it was even moderately effective AA.

[Perk]

I'm one of the better VTOL pilots around and they're a LONG way from useless.  You just have to get the idea of doing direct damage with them out of your head.

With a full set of HOTAS controls, the Hawkmoth is just insanely maneuverable and almost infinitely survivable on any map with even a modicum of terrain to mask behind.  Your primary job is to work around the edges of the map at very high speed while passive, and pop out from behind a hill to NARC.  Once you run out of beacons, flit home, re-arm and repeat.  Seriously do not underestimate the value of the VTOL platform for NARCing.  It's vastly superior to mechs for the obvious reasons, and to ASFs due to it's ability to hover.  It's also stable enough to allow high-probability hits with unguided NARCs at least on stationary targets.

Your secondary job is to hunt Longtoms and harass flanking mechs.  The LT is actually lightly armored enough that you can generally take it down even if it's covered by AA.  NARC it, then get behind a hill and toss LRMs over the hill at the LT.  You'll rarely have to unmask to NARC it a second time.  Lone mechs are also legitimate prey, though they take a long time to kill.  You can use terrain or just the mech's z-axis blind spot (depending on the mech) to limit your exposure to counter-fire and just keep raining down LRMs till they die or give up and go home.

As for the variants - yeah the Lt. Gauss version is next to useless.  The only time it's even slightly worthwhile is when the match has devolved into an LRM duel with a bunch of stationary mechs sitting around.  Then if you work around behind, you can sometimes - using your entire slug load - pick off a boat that's not paying attention to his back torso damage indicator... sometimes.

The LRM10 version is the bread and butter.  It's enough firepower to do some reasonable damage, and you have a lot more loiter time than you do with the T-Bolt version.

The RAC5 version does what it's advertised to do - hunt other Hawkmoths.  It's by far the best anti-VTOL platform in the game for the simple reason that it's the only platform (with the exception of a very well flown Sparrowhawk or Sulla) that can keep another VTOL under it's guns for a reasonable amount of time.  (Yeah a Huit'll shred a Hawkmoth in a couple of seconds, but trust me a good Hawkmoth pilot isn't going to be unmasked for that long =)  It has only minor utility against ground targets, and you give up a lot of your advantages to try and use it as such.  Frankly I miss the SSRM4 version from 2.x

The T-Bolt version is not as bad as a lot of people have made out.  That missile is a lot of concentrated damage, but it's not the easiest thing in the world to use.  The target has to be NARCed, it has to be slow, and you have to give the T-bolt a fairly long run in from a fairly low launch altitude.  It just doesn't have a lot of delta-v and if you launch from high up, it'll tend to impact the ground while trying to make its final turn onto the target.  Still, the T-Bolt version is best used when there's an APC somewhere forward so you can just keep re-arming without having to go all the way home.  Otherwise stick to the dual LRMs...