Author Topic: Tonnage and speed vs tonnage lost through damage  (Read 1660 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline (TLL) Heretic

  • Living Legend
  • *******
  • Posts: 2209
  • Karma: 117
Tonnage and speed vs tonnage lost through damage
« on: December 18, 2010, 02:24:12 AM »
Ok, so this is totally left-field...but stay with me.

I have a 60ton 'mech, cruising at 86kph with 8 tons of armour, weapons & structure in the left arm.  What happens if that arm is destroyed, without any CT or engine damage?

Technically in CBT you're now a 52ton machine powered by the same engine (effectively you're no longer a Heavy, you are now a Medium powered by the same powerplant)...therefore you'd be moving faster....bang goes your arm...up goes your potential speed by say 10kph........Similar effects would be found if LRMs had dislodged armour and structure (without loosing limbs) worth that amount.  So basically the more tons you loose (ammo usage or non-engine damage) the faster you go.

Of course, such a system has to take into account Heat Sink loss via damage....so it's a little more complex than I'm making out, and may not ever be possible.

Should our weights, and performance be relative to our current weight (for example on some chassis, like the Huit prime you'd move faster with those 12 free tons of ammo unallocated..... and this would effect ASF in particular...image the speed boost of dropping those TBolts or FBombs)?

Something to think and talk about perhaps?.....


Pecuniam non olet
Quid enim saluis infamia nummis

"Make this game my way, because I HAVE A DISORDER!" - VictorMorson
".....show us on the doll where MWLL touched you bad." - KingLeer

Offline =KoS=Zeus

  • Star Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 1476
  • Karma: 69
  • Knight of the Inner Sphere
Re: Tonnage and speed vs tonnage lost through damage
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2010, 02:44:56 AM »
I've thought about this a lot with CBT and some of the ridiculous mechs with 50+ tons devoted to weapons alone and what would happen if they dumped their equipment. I don't think a mech's transmission is designed to move faster than the designed "curb weight" however.

It makes sense if you consider that a mech is built like a person and then loaded up with equipment. Fully loaded that person is moving slower, and as equipment is removed he can run faster and faster.

However, mechs aren't built like that, they are built with an intended load to be carried, optimized for that load even. In essence, the person in the above example is optimized at "naked weight" and carrying all that crap he is "overloaded" because he's carrying more weight than he was designed to. A mech at factory "curb weight" is not overloaded, it is perfectly loaded and removing tonnage will not allow his transmission to suddenly withstand higher and higher RPMs. The legs can't move faster because they aren't designed to, the hip joint is built to only rotate so fast on a given design.

Have an Atlas fireman's carry a Bushwacker over its shoulders and it'll degrade in speed like you or I would carrying a girlfriend over our shoulders (unless your girlfriend is more of an Osiris in size, then you're pretty much okay).

Additionally, how much faster could you run if you had your right arm blown off (ignoring shock and blood loss)?

Offline (TLL) Heretic

  • Living Legend
  • *******
  • Posts: 2209
  • Karma: 117
Re: Tonnage and speed vs tonnage lost through damage
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2010, 02:55:28 AM »
I've thought about this a lot with CBT and some of the ridiculous mechs with 50+ tons devoted to weapons alone and what would happen if they dumped their equipment. I don't think a mech's transmission is designed to move faster than the designed "curb weight" however.

It makes sense if you consider that a mech is built like a person and then loaded up with equipment. Fully loaded that person is moving slower, and as equipment is removed he can run faster and faster.

However, mechs aren't built like that, they are built with an intended load to be carried, optimized for that load even. In essence, the person in the above example is optimized at "naked weight" and carrying all that crap he is "overloaded" because he's carrying more weight than he was designed to. A mech at factory "curb weight" is not overloaded, it is perfectly loaded and removing tonnage will not allow his transmission to suddenly withstand higher and higher RPMs. The legs can't move faster because they aren't designed to, the hip joint is built to only rotate so fast on a given design.

Have an Atlas fireman's carry a Bushwacker over its shoulders and it'll degrade in speed like you or I would carrying a girlfriend over our shoulders (unless your girlfriend is more of an Osiris in size, then you're pretty much okay).

Additionally, how much faster could you run if you had your right arm blown off (ignoring shock and blood loss)?

The Wife's more like a Bushwacker these days...she was an Owens when I met her....but I prefer the Bushwacker (she's happier and I can cook ;) ).

'Mechs aside, how does such thing affect Tanks and ASF?  We all Know that if our car is stripped of all the non-essential weight then it will move faster, and airplanes when they drop their bombs are a lot happier too....so should this be something that applies to non-mech assets only?

CBT ain't much of a guide here I feel, as TBH it never asked these questions, or had rules for such things....it's assumed that if you design a 60ton machine with a certain powerplant then it will at best always act like that 60ton machine, even if it now weighs 50tons....I don't have any real answer, just looking for folks opinions, as this is the sort of thing that makes things feel real.

If I was going to be picky, loosing an arm should red-out your display for up to 5s, while you cope with the neural feedback (pain) of loosing a limb while connected to the neurohelmet (but then again all damage should cause some degree of pain reflex, that's the point of being connected to your ride completely).


Pecuniam non olet
Quid enim saluis infamia nummis

"Make this game my way, because I HAVE A DISORDER!" - VictorMorson
".....show us on the doll where MWLL touched you bad." - KingLeer

Offline Spanish Inquisition

  • Lance Sergeant
  • **
  • Posts: 477
  • Karma: 13
  • Cross beams, askew, treadle, etc.
Re: Tonnage and speed vs tonnage lost through damage
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2010, 05:33:15 AM »
However, mechs aren't built like that, they are built with an intended load to be carried, optimized for that load even. In essence, the person in the above example is optimized at "naked weight" and carrying all that crap he is "overloaded" because he's carrying more weight than he was designed to. A mech at factory "curb weight" is not overloaded, it is perfectly loaded and removing tonnage will not allow his transmission to suddenly withstand higher and higher RPMs. The legs can't move faster because they aren't designed to, the hip joint is built to only rotate so fast on a given design.

This. This was how it was explained to me when I realized in Mechwarrior 2, my Dire Wolf that weighed 60 tons (or something) wouldn't run any faster with a 400XL...

Quote

If I was going to be picky, loosing an arm should red-out your display for up to 5s, while you cope with the neural feedback (pain) of loosing a limb while connected to the neurohelmet (but then again all damage should cause some degree of pain reflex, that's the point of being connected to your ride completely).
Maybe if you're a clanner with the fancy direct hookups. A neurohelmet aint going to do that to you.
"Nobody expects the Spa- Oh bugger"
-Last words of the pilot of WHM-6R Waffles

Offline =KoS= Saber15

  • Alphatester
  • Star Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 1802
  • Karma: 119
  • RIP AND TEAR
Re: Tonnage and speed vs tonnage lost through damage
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2010, 07:18:21 AM »
Quote
If I was going to be picky, loosing an arm should red-out your display for up to 5s, while you cope with the neural feedback (pain) of loosing a limb while connected to the neurohelmet (but then again all damage should cause some degree of pain reflex, that's the point of being connected to your ride completely).
Maybe if you're a clanner with the fancy direct hookups. A neurohelmet aint going to do that to you.
It's mentioned sometimes in the novels that ammunition explosions cause feedback and pain for the neurohelmet wearer. I dunno about loosing a mech's limb, but I'm assuming it's probably the same way.

"Concentrate on the moment, each moment is its own reality. It has a particular thisness. You can't predict, but you can explain. Or try. If you are observant, and lucky, you can say, this is why this is happening! It's very interesting!"

Offline xInVicTuSx

  • Alphatester
  • Living Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 2875
  • Karma: 128
  • Knight of the Inner Sphere
Re: Tonnage and speed vs tonnage lost through damage
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2010, 02:00:14 PM »
^^^
Well THAT is extremely silly. :P

Anyways, when I think about it through common sense, I tend to agree with Zeus. Look at MASC, it takes fancy equipment to get those legs to move faster and you're not supposed to spam it. This tells me that the legs are only meant to go so fast and making it lighter isn't really going to help.

It makes sense for tracked vehicles and particularly aircraft.. but not for mechs.

-Invictus ne Vindicetur-

KNIGHTS GRAND 5V5 TOURNAMENT THIS MARCH! More info below.
http://forum.mechlivinglegends.net/index.php/topic,16841.msg287300.html#msg287300

Offline Frostiken

  • Star Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 1909
  • Karma: 194
Re: Tonnage and speed vs tonnage lost through damage
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2010, 02:18:23 PM »
How would it make any sense to get a speed boost for damage due to lost armor on aircraft?

Chunks of armor flying off randomly are going to severely affect your aerodynamic profile as well as the extremely delicate weight and balance of the entire operation.

Offline ~SJ~ Blhurr

  • Star Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 1905
  • Karma: 48
  • ~SJ~
Re: Tonnage and speed vs tonnage lost through damage
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2010, 04:35:37 PM »
Clearly a plane with a full load of armament is going to be behave more sluggishly than a plane with no armament remaining.
Mechwarrior Blhurr - Smoke Jags - Delta Star - The 331st Feral Fangs

"Damn these RCTs! 'Mech combat is bad enough, let alone the  combine d arms of 'Mechs, vehicles, infantry, and fighters."

Offline Frostiken

  • Star Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 1909
  • Karma: 194
Re: Tonnage and speed vs tonnage lost through damage
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2010, 05:41:45 PM »
Clearly a plane with a full load of armament is going to be behave more sluggishly than a plane with no armament remaining.

Are you suggesting that on top of one-shot-killing Assault mechs, the Shiva would then also get a bonus to speed and maneuverability just to erase any doubt that the pilot might be shot down?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 05:50:55 PM by Frostiken »

Offline (TLL) Heretic

  • Living Legend
  • *******
  • Posts: 2209
  • Karma: 117
Re: Tonnage and speed vs tonnage lost through damage
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2010, 06:31:00 PM »
Clearly a plane with a full load of armament is going to be behave more sluggishly than a plane with no armament remaining.

Are you suggesting that on top of one-shot-killing Assault mechs, the Shiva would then also get a bonus to speed and maneuverability just to erase any doubt that the pilot might be shot down?

Stop exaggerating Frosti, let's look at some figures first....

Huit Prime, guns loaded it has 12 free tons, so instead of 85tons moving at 32kph we have 73tons on the same chassis, so topspeed might be 37.2kph unboosted with no extra ammo (assuming it's a direct relationship between weight and speed).....I'd definitely use that tank unloaded, and rely on a nearby APC for reloads (time taken to get into range is of the essence in TC I believe).

So let's take the Shiva, although I don't have any hard info (I don't fly) I'm going to assume that a Shiva that drops his FBombs (and reload) has dropped 10% of it's mass, so instead of ~300kph it now cruises at ~330kph without boost (hardly a game breaker, but something that makes the ASF and Tanks handling and strategies feel more unique).... I can definately see a situation where a pilot might find himself surrounded by hostile ASF while in the FBomber....I'd drop the bombs for the speed boost and afterburn towards safety.....might not do a lot of good, but would definately add depth and a realistic feeling.



Off-Topic;

@SpanishInquisition, IIRC the somewhat-rare Clan facial tattoos (cyber implants) mimic the Neurohelmet without the need for a neurohelmet, they don't offer any greater integration and just make the warriors look mean and scarey ;).  And as for Neural feedback, you get that constantly from the gyro, sensors and systems on a 'mech, and the 'mech translates your brains balance computations and uses them to stay upright, it's like a rider and a horse much more than a suit that the pilot controls with his thoughts.....but it's closer to a Horse and Rider Avatar style than Cowboy style.  Neural feedback is also the damage report system of the 'mech, if you feel a sharp pain in your left side you've taken a sizeable hit to the left torso, the HTAL display is from the tabletop game and IIRC not described in the Lore so this feedback is essential to a pilots Situational Awareness and the 'mechs mobility.

Neural feedback can kill or knock a pilot unconscious in some situations.  If the Helmet is not tuned to your Alpha properly waves it will be uncomfortable to say the least, if it is locked onto some-one elses Alpha waves then it WILL FRY your brain as an anti-theft device). And the feedback system can also malfunction with the right pattern of damage, causing the pilot constant pain (rather than the short damage report pain he/she feels when the 'mech is damaged), unconsciousness and even death if your very very unlucky.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at9hxU864Fg&feature=related

The Commando pilot in this intro movie for MW2:Mercs cries out load everytime his 'mech takes damage (He's a rookie and not used to the pain, you can tell this when he crys out "Whaa" when he see's the Stalkers SRMs before they hit and "Arghhh" in pain when a second later he is hit), the Zeus pilot is one badass sister, who's obviously seen a lot of combat as she doesn't even cry out when her left arm is ripped off at the elbow! But even she can't resist a scream with the pain of an ammo explosion as she ejects.

I'm not suggesting this for MWLL (not sure how you can mimic that anyways) but just clarifying things on a point of BTU nerdiness  ;D


Pecuniam non olet
Quid enim saluis infamia nummis

"Make this game my way, because I HAVE A DISORDER!" - VictorMorson
".....show us on the doll where MWLL touched you bad." - KingLeer

Offline [IPA] Bravo Cadett

  • Lance Sergeant
  • **
  • Posts: 384
  • Karma: 4
    • Dream Team Leipzig
Re: Tonnage and speed vs tonnage lost through damage
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2010, 01:19:39 AM »
+1 for tanks get out ammo or lose armor ...
+1 for asf get ot of ammo

no go for mechs @.@
cause you can overload them (if you attach nets to the mech and load up stuff you've got more than the standard stuff")

mechs arent build to run faster if they are lighter ... cause the chassis (activators, myomers, gyroskop)  is allready build for the maximal speed ... so its like you want an engien runs faster that are at its output peak

Offline CHHš Aurailius

  • Technical Designer
  • MWLL Developer
  • MechWarrior
  • *
  • Posts: 338
  • Karma: 32
Re: Tonnage and speed vs tonnage lost through damage
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2010, 03:05:36 AM »
At least for the moment, this isn't possible.  We cant dynamically change the vehicle movement parameters like that.

Offline [IPA] Bravo Cadett

  • Lance Sergeant
  • **
  • Posts: 384
  • Karma: 4
    • Dream Team Leipzig
Re: Tonnage and speed vs tonnage lost through damage
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2010, 03:18:56 AM »
At least for the moment, this isn't possible.  We cant dynamically change the vehicle movement parameters like that.

so you successfully killed the thread xD

Offline Cujo

  • Evil Polygon Wizard
  • MWLL Developer
  • Star Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 1719
  • Karma: 39
    • Deviant Art Gallery
Re: Tonnage and speed vs tonnage lost through damage
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2010, 04:38:21 AM »
At least for the moment, this isn't possible.  We cant dynamically change the vehicle movement parameters like that.

so you successfully killed the thread xD
wasn't going anywhere useful anyway :/, but at least now you know that it isn't really possible ;)

Offline CGB [CoffiNail]

  • Star Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 1882
  • Karma: 97
  • S. Col. of Clan Ghost Bear 304th Assault Cluster
    • 304th Assault Cluster
Re: Tonnage and speed vs tonnage lost through damage
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2010, 05:30:52 AM »
So now we need a new discussion of neurohelmet feedback in Battletech.