(Ultra)Autocannons are ridiculous.

[sgnl05]

I noticed that Light meches dont stand a chance against a mech who has UAC20.

No you don't understand some players can't hit light mechs with the AC20 because sometimes they move which is why, despite anything you might actually have to say on the matter, the AC20 is not overpowered and you don't make any sense.

[Haunted]

I couldn't care less what some 30 year old nerd tome says about a fictional science fiction space gun.

You can't just throw the setting of the game out of the window..... this game is set in the BT universe. So it adheres to the general setting.
And all weapons are taken from that setting. Even though all of them are implemented in a way that works in a FPS game.
And it's absolutely right to expect the UAC20 to be one of the most damaging weapons.

finally, STOP BRINGING BT STATS INTO A PC GAME DISCUSSION. you CANNOT base a computer game on stats from a board game.

Wrong:
You not only can base a computer game on the stats from a board game... MWLL did exactly that (as all Mechwarrior games did..).
All weapons in MWLL are based on the stats of the board game (in relation to each other). That is the point of this mod. To bring BT alive in a combined arms FPS game.

And we can argue about the in-game stats the moment some one takes the time and updates the wiki with the 0.4.0 weapon stats, and someone posts the weight and cost rules of MWLL. And that is not going to happen anytime in the beta since they are in flux. So all we got are the CBT rules. Which MWLL is cose to anyway. At least if comparing weapons to each other.
So we can base an argument on BT stats as long as we take into account that they are a bit different in MWLL.

The main difference is armor to weapon damage balance.

An argument that concern general questions of weapon to weapon balance.. like 'should the UAC20 be king in damage aside from LTs' can be very well argued by reference to CBT.
But saying 'an UAC20 should core a light in one salvo since BT says so' is stupid.

So the bullshit 'its a FPS not BT stupid' hammer that some people love to swing so much should really be used with more care (it has it's place thought).

I noticed that Light meches dont stand a chance against a mech who has UAC20.

No you don't understand some players can't hit light mechs with the AC20 because sometimes they move which is why, despite anything you might actually have to say on the matter, the AC20 is not overpowered and you don't make any sense.

You were arguing the whole time that UAC20s are overpowered.... now someone agrees with you (partly)... and then you are saying the AC20 is not overpowered... even though the post you quoted talks about UAC20 ?

What is it now?
- UAC20 and AC20 OP ?
- only UAC20 OP and AC20 fine ?
- both fine ?

[Nitro_R]

I say the only reason why UAC20s appear to be overpowered is the large amount of cover available on the maps.
The bases have walls, and there are no sniper alleys or big hills to snipe from on maps other than Death Valley.

If there were outposts without walls, or partial walls, and more sniper spots, short-range mechs would not be so powerful.

========================================

The Loki with dual UAC20s are deadly because it can chase you down so quickly.

========================================

Now lets say we took the Dual UAC20 Loki and put it in the OLD CLEARCUT.
IT would get distroyed by Missiles, and Laserboats before it could get close to touch anything.


It's a combination of the map terrain and base walls which make tanks and mechs with UAC20 very powerful.

[~SJ~ Riker]

Lulz...

"I suck at (insert weapon here), but I am much better at (insert second weapon here) so if you wouldn't mind? Could you please nerf the other one so I can be a 1337 player too?"

I say the only reason why UAC20s appear to be overpowered is the large amount of cover available on the maps.
The bases have walls, and there are no sniper alleys or big hills to snipe from on maps other than Death Valley.

If there were outposts without walls, or partial walls, and more sniper spots, short-range mechs would not be so powerful.

========================================

The Loki with dual UAC20s are deadly because it can chase you down so quickly.

========================================

Now lets say we took the Dual UAC20 Loki and put it in the OLD CLEARCUT.
IT would get distroyed by Missiles, and Laserboats before it could get close to touch anything.


It's a combination of the map terrain and base walls which make tanks and mechs with UAC20 very powerful.

And you are 100% right Nitro... Knowing which unit to con for the environment is part of the game. They're mostly likely fuss'n cause most of the players that have been here a while already have a pretty good understanding of this and are using the units in their best situations.




Moving on... For those of you that don't like that this is based off of a "Table Top Game" (it's not monopoly), well there's always Halo/ModernWarfare/Battlefield. Yes... Four direct shots from a AC20 on any type (that's about how many you can get off in 10 secs) should be able to kill ANY light mech. I would suggest those that are having a problem with this to become more acquainted with the game this stems from. If you don't want to do that... Well then...

[-SM-SUCKER]

I have been having some fun in the past with (U)ACs. They were always fun to use, but right now the mechs with 2UAC20 are able to kill any light mech in less than 5 seconds. Mediums might take two extra shots, but hey, this does not take long.
Having been victim myself to the AC20s of 0.4.x I know that it is not really fun to be on the receiving end.
I would vote for a lower damage multiplier for tanks and mechs. Because it is too much fun to actually hit a low hovering VTOL with it.
2xUAC20 Loki as anti air ftw

No need to emphazise on brawlers, TC does rely 75% on them, if not even more.

[Haunted]

I have been having some fun in the past with (U)ACs. They were always fun to use, but right now the mechs with 2UAC20 are able to kill any light mech in less than 5 seconds. Mediums might take two extra shots, but hey, this does not take long.
Having been victim myself to the AC20s of 0.4.x I know that it is not really fun to be on the receiving end.
I would vote for a lower damage multiplier for tanks and mechs. Because it is too much fun to actually hit a low hovering VTOL with it.
2xUAC20 Loki as anti air ftw

No need to emphazise on brawlers, TC does rely 75% on them, if not even more.

The devs already stated that they want the 0.3.2 feeling of slower combat.
So you can bet that the (U)AC20 damage will be toned down a bit (same as ATMs, and heavy lasers).
Still a dual UAC20 mech should be really feared at brawling distance. Not laughed at. They were much too weak in 0.3.2 and -I agree- are a bit (only a tiny bit) to strong now.


Concerning the maps favoring brawler..... yes they do. And that is, in most cases, quite ok. I only think that the bases should be a bit more open and not always completely walled.
Quite a bit cover is ok... but complete cover is not. And it would be nice to have some bases that can only be capped by BAs.

[sgnl05]

You can't just throw the setting of the game out of the window..... this game is set in the BT universe. So it adheres to the general setting.
And all weapons are taken from that setting. Even though all of them are implemented in a way that works in a FPS game.
And it's absolutely right to expect the UAC20 to be one of the most damaging weapons.

All the fluff says is that the U/AC20 should be a short range, damaging weapon. I don't play CBT so I'm not sure about this but I think it isn't even the most damaging weapon, that's the heavy gauss rifle which is probably outclassed by the UAC20 right now at most ranges, despite weighing more. Right now the U/AC20 seems to do so much damage that I'm pretty sure it could take a fair sized DPS nerf and still be the most damaging weapon in the game. I don't mind it doing a lot of damage but as it is you can charge across the field, take a bunch of damage getting close and still win because within 350 metres nothing can even come close to you in terms of raw hurt dispensed. Gun for gun it should be near top of the list in the damage stakes, but I don't think that it should win in close range engagements vs any other combination of weapons no matter what.

As for all the CBT stats stuff, the developers have stated a bunch of times that gameplay balance is more important than tabletop purity. So yeah, they've already moved away from CBT stats and they'll do it again if they think it makes for a better game. Why do you think that AC20 damage has changed so much over the various patches to begin with?

You were arguing the whole time that UAC20s are overpowered.... now someone agrees with you (partly)... and then you are saying the AC20 is not overpowered... even though the post you quoted talks about UAC20 ?

What is it now?
- UAC20 and AC20 OP ?
- only UAC20 OP and AC20 fine ?
- both fine ?

That was not an entirely serious post. Please don't make me use the green text sarcasm font. It is ugly and ruins all subtlety

EDIT:

"I suck at (insert weapon here), but I am much better at (insert second weapon here) so if you wouldn't mind? Could you please nerf the other one so I can be a 1337 player too?"

I really hope you don't think that's what I or anyone else actually said.

[~SJ~ Riker]

There seems to be a lot of 5/6 pilots here... That's the real problem...

[Haunted]

All the fluff says is that the U/AC20 should be a short range, damaging weapon. I don't play CBT so I'm not sure about this but I think it isn't even the most damaging weapon, that's the heavy gauss rifle which is probably outclassed by the UAC20 right now at most ranges, despite weighing more. Right now the U/AC20 seems to do so much damage that I'm pretty sure it could take a fair sized DPS nerf and still be the most damaging weapon in the game. I don't mind it doing a lot of damage but as it is you can charge across the field, take a bunch of damage getting close and still win because within 350 metres nothing can even come close to you in terms of raw hurt dispensed. Gun for gun it should be near top of the list in the damage stakes, but I don't think that it should win in close range engagements vs any other combination of weapons no matter what.

Heavy Gaus: 25, 20, 10 (depending on distance)
UAC20: 2x20

And an UAC20 simply doesn't win any engagement vs any other combination of weapons. My millage seems to vary a great deal from yours. I didn't experience much trouble in fighting UAC20 assets with non UAC20 assets.... I have my troubles with tanks at the moment... still trying to exploit their weakness.

As for all the CBT stats stuff, the developers have stated a bunch of times that gameplay balance is more important than tabletop purity. So yeah, they've already moved away from CBT stats and they'll do it again if they think it makes for a better game. Why do you think that AC20 damage has changed so much over the various patches to begin with?

Did you actually read what I posted ? The relative weapon to weapon balance is quite close to CBT (never said that it is equal). And it actually got closer to CBT since 0.1.0.
And the amount of changes to a weapon doesn't in anyway indicate that the devs move away from CBT. It just indicates that the devs are balancing the game.
And yes gameplay > purity is clearly the path the devs take. But that doesn't negate any point I made.

Always arguing in extremes does only one thing.... it makes extremely weak arguments.

You were arguing the whole time that UAC20s are overpowered.... now someone agrees with you (partly)... and then you are saying the AC20 is not overpowered... even though the post you quoted talks about UAC20 ?

What is it now?
- UAC20 and AC20 OP ?
- only UAC20 OP and AC20 fine ?
- both fine ?

That was not an entirely serious post. Please don't make me use the green text sarcasm font. It is ugly and ruins all subtlety

That is why it's good to avoid sarcasm or make it more clear that one is sarcastic.....  and your statement was neither clear nor easy to read, and green text won't help it either.

[(TLL)Siilk]

What some people seem to forget... the UAC20 should be the most damaging weapon. It's the right place for it. It earned it. It should be feared.
It was a sad missunderstood weapon since they removed it's burst damage and made it a damage over time weapon.

Now it's back in a all it's glory. Ok... maybe a bit to much glory.... but only a tiny little bit to much glory...

Don't get within 500 metres of an AC20 machine eh? So what you're saying is, don't even bother using:

small beam lasers
small ER beam lasers
small pulse lasers
small x-pulse lasers
small heavy lasers
medium beam lasers
medium pulse lasers
medium x-pulse lasers
medium heavy lasers

All because your opponent had the cash and intellectual ability to buy a huge gun? I agree that that's pretty much how it currently works, but disagree completely that that's how it should work. You shouldn't get to make more than half the laser arsenal useless because you're the proud owner of a large autocannon. I didn't even touch on other weapons that get screwed over because of it, like SRMs.

Thats like saying..... you shouldn't make more than half the cheap ass cars useless because you are the owner of a racing car.....


For the weight of a UAC20 (Clan 12t) you can get what (going by CBT weight here and not talking about cost... since we dont really know the MWLL weights and prices) ?....
- 24 heavy small laser or 24 ERSL ? (i know.... dont alpha)
- 12 ERMBL or 12 heavy medium lasers (seriously dont alpha)
or
- 4 SSRM6.... those do hurt and are actually possible to use


Saying the UAC20 makes all those weapons useless is utterly wrong.

Never forget price, weight, heat, range, ammo and fireing mechanics balance weapons. And yes heat is what makes the (otherwise insanely OP) 24 heavy small laser uller impossible.

I say the only reason why UAC20s appear to be overpowered is the large amount of cover available on the maps.
The bases have walls, and there are no sniper alleys or big hills to snipe from on maps other than Death Valley.

If there were outposts without walls, or partial walls, and more sniper spots, short-range mechs would not be so powerful.

========================================

The Loki with dual UAC20s are deadly because it can chase you down so quickly.

========================================

Now lets say we took the Dual UAC20 Loki and put it in the OLD CLEARCUT.
IT would get distroyed by Missiles, and Laserboats before it could get close to touch anything.


It's a combination of the map terrain and base walls which make tanks and mechs with UAC20 very powerful.

This pretty much sums my opinion on current (U)AC balance. It is definitely is subject to change in the future, but I don't think (U)ACs are as seriously OP as some people in this thread think.

[Flyingdebris]

The only problem i think is the loki having 2.  As it is well armored enough to survive charging headlong into most fights, and  fast enough catch up with most enemies.  And in a brawl, pretty much outperforms most assaults short of the gunslinger or certain atlas variants.

Leave ultra 20 pairs to slow ass assaults, or the slow and thinly armored hunchback iic, whenever that should get added.  Better to downgrade the 20s into 10s.

[=KoS=Zeus]

I don't care if my mech gets shot to pieces by AC/20s, what absolutely drives me up the wall is constantly having my head shot off by the damn things. That is the real problem with them, they make head shots a cake walk. How many people have killed an Atlas in a Demolisher by blowing its head off and leaving a mostly intact mech behind? ::Raises hand:: How many of you did this when you were aiming at the CT? ::raises hand::

My solution... remove the splash damage from the AC rounds and leave the splash mechanic to the LBX series of autocannons.

Fixed.

[~SJ~ Wolf]

I like how strong the UAC20 is. I could do with a bit less head shots but other than that i think it and the UAC20 and the loki e is fine. It's a glass cannon in all but the best pilots hands. So lets not get crazy with the "I'm a bad player that can't aim, so the mech is super armored" that's nonsense as it's simply not the case.

Anyone failing to stay at range of a UAC20 or worse multiple UAC20s gets what they deserve. I'm glad the devs have largely ignored this thread as most of these replies come off as "I got killed by this too many times, so nerf it."

edit:
To all of you who think the Loki E is bad, try the D  few times.

[sgnl05]

Heavy Gaus: 25, 20, 10 (depending on distance)
UAC20: 2x20

Sure, but if I understand CBT rules correctly the UAC20 could very well hit two different components and deal 20 damage to each, while the HGR at short range is doing 25 damage to one component no matter what. I guess what does more damage in that sort of situation is kind of subjective. 40 points is more overall but I'd imagine there'd be cases where you'd rather have 25 in one spot.

And an UAC20 simply doesn't win any engagement vs any other combination of weapons. My millage seems to vary a great deal from yours. I didn't experience much trouble in fighting UAC20 assets with non UAC20 assets....

I said short range engagement, not any engagement. I exaggerated a little when I said no matter what, but what I'm seeing ingame is that in a great deal of cases a U/AC20 mech or demolisher can go into a close range brawl pretty heavily damaged and still come out on top a lot of the time simply because the large autocannons don't just do more damage than everything else, but do really quite a lot more. I can accept that an undamaged 2xUAC20 mech fighting pretty anything else at under 350 metres should probably win pretty much all the time, but damaged is a different story. It just seems to me that unless the UAC20 mech's CT is already red before the short range engagement begins, the other mech has a pretty slim chance of winning despite the huge head start. This makes it really hard for other mechs to compete in some of the maps because they have to practically kill the thing before it even makes it within range, which just isn't an option a lot of the time.

Did you actually read what I posted ?

Yes.

And yes gameplay > purity is clearly the path the devs take. But that doesn't negate any point I made.

Well it means that U/AC20s don't have to do any particular amount of damage ingame just because CBT or the lore says it does. Stuff like that sets the very broad parameters, but it doesn't mean that in this particular situation damage couldn't go down a little if doing so would improve gameplay.

Look, I said that I think damage needed to go down and explained why I thought that, but I never said how much. You yourself said that a little bit less might be appropriate, and a little bit might be enough. The only way to know is to try it.
If I wasn't entirely civil I'm sorry (to everyone) but I do get annoyed when people argue that something isn't unbalanced simply by listing off a couple of drawbacks as though that makes them right by default. Also when people deliberately misinterpret what I'm saying. Both of those tricks don't advance the debate at all and are more about point scoring and slagging the other person off than being constructive.

Anyone failing to stay at range of a UAC20 or worse multiple UAC20s gets what they deserve. I'm glad the devs have largely ignored this thread as most of these replies come off as "I got killed by this too many times, so nerf it."

Yeah this is another stellar example of exactly what I'm talking about.

This pretty much sums my opinion on current (U)AC balance. It is definitely is subject to change in the future, but I don't think (U)ACs are as seriously OP as some people in this thread think.

Map design has a lot to do with it, sure, but as much as I'd like to see most maps made much more open I'm not sure if we can reasonably expect sweeping map changes just because two weapons do too much damage. And if that isn't going to happen, a damage nerf of some degree or another is probably needed.

[~SJ~ Wolf]

Words

Pardon if my opinion differs from yours but I feel direct damage on the 20 is just right and I am glad the devs have not publicly acknowledged this. I can concede this point Headshots need to be toned down.

I have killed plenty of loki e heros and been killed by them, so what? I have been cut apart before I saw what was on me by a morrigu, CT'd through by a both kinds of AC demos over and over again. So what? These weapons are supposed to kill you, and not take a ridiculous amount of shots to do it.