Author Topic: (Ultra)Autocannons are ridiculous.  (Read 10396 times)

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Offline Flyingdebris

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Re: (Ultra)Autocannons are ridiculous.
« Reply #330 on: January 18, 2011, 05:57:05 PM »
gyros aren't the end all be all in stability.

They keep mechs from falling over, but we see countless times how often pilots have to fight the controls to keep their machines upright, so they definitely aren't perfect.  I mean, all it is is a rotating weighted gyroscope in the mech's guts.  not some inertial dampener.

and i dunno about kai's ac20 not having recoil, where does it say that?

at any rate it just feels wrong to fire an H-gauss or a longtom or any other BFG of a gun and feel absolutely nothing.  There's no inertial feedback.  Imagine driving around in a battlefield game, driving a tank, firing the cannon, and the tank is unaffected entirely.  Imagine picking up some handcannon in an FPS, and aside froma big bang, no recoil.  It just wouldn't feel right would it?  Or am i alone here?
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Re: (Ultra)Autocannons are ridiculous.
« Reply #331 on: January 18, 2011, 06:10:38 PM »
Allard's Centurion did not have recoil when it fired its AC/20 (at least none that affected aiming), and that was a modded machine. So production models (which I'm guessing stock mechs in MWLL roughly represent) should have no issue.
I recall some parts in the trilogy mentioning him having to fight recoil when firing the AC/20's long burst.

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Offline ~SJ~ Wolf

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Re: (Ultra)Autocannons are ridiculous.
« Reply #332 on: January 18, 2011, 06:11:05 PM »
gyros aren't the end all be all in stability.

They keep mechs from falling over, but we see countless times how often pilots have to fight the controls to keep their machines upright, so they definitely aren't perfect.  I mean, all it is is a rotating weighted gyroscope in the mech's guts.  not some inertial dampener.

and i dunno about kai's ac20 not having recoil, where does it say that?

at any rate it just feels wrong to fire an H-gauss or a longtom or any other BFG of a gun and feel absolutely nothing.  There's no inertial feedback.  Imagine driving around in a battlefield game, driving a tank, firing the cannon, and the tank is unaffected entirely.  Imagine picking up some handcannon in an FPS, and aside froma big bang, no recoil.  It just wouldn't feel right would it?  Or am i alone here?

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Offline HAARP

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Re: (Ultra)Autocannons are ridiculous.
« Reply #333 on: January 18, 2011, 06:11:52 PM »
Just fyi, a heavy gauss produces so much recoil that they can't be mounted in arms for risk of ripping it off, ligher machines risk falling if they fire it unbraced.

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Re: (Ultra)Autocannons are ridiculous.
« Reply #334 on: January 18, 2011, 06:13:12 PM »
I don't see why the gauss weapons should cause any noticeable kick. Regardless of the caliber the firing mechanism doesn't generate it a whole mess of kick.

Anything that shoots a bullet is going to generate a ton of kick. A gun that fires a 125 KG slug at Mach 4 is going to generate a shitton of recoil.

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Offline ~SJ~ Wolf

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Re: (Ultra)Autocannons are ridiculous.
« Reply #335 on: January 18, 2011, 06:14:27 PM »
I don't see why the gauss weapons should cause any noticeable kick. Regardless of the caliber the firing mechanism doesn't generate it a whole mess of kick.

Anything that shoots a bullet is going to generate a ton of kick. A gun that fires a 125 KG slug at Mach 4 is going to generate a shitton of recoil.

Yea i realized that after haarp said what he did, and edited accordingly.

Offline =KoS= Eldragon

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Re: (Ultra)Autocannons are ridiculous.
« Reply #336 on: January 18, 2011, 06:41:06 PM »
... A gun that fires a 125 KG slug at Mach 4 is going to generate a shitton of recoil.

Accelerating 125KG to Mach 4 requires ~122 megajoules.... yet somehow that requires no energy from the reactor (aka heat).   :o

Edit: which incidentally is the same amount of energy generated by the EMALS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_Aircraft_Launch_System

So for me, IMHO:
Recoil for the sake of realism: don't care. We ignore realism all over the place.
Recoil for the sake of making a weapon 'feel' big an epic when fired: Go for it. (But game balance trumps all)
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 06:48:33 PM by (TLL)Eldragon »

Offline sleet01

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Re: (Ultra)Autocannons are ridiculous.
« Reply #337 on: January 18, 2011, 08:24:05 PM »
Just FYI: when an M1A2 fires its 120mm gun the whole thing rocks like a boat in a gale.  It might not look bad in videos but it's definitely something you notice from the inside.  It's not quite as bad as the sway from slamming the brakes on, but I had the recoil knock my helmet against the driver's night sight a couple times, and that's with the tank stopped, me sitting in a recliner, and the sight 6" away.  We can't simulate the punch-to-the-plexus, ears-almost-popping pressure change that happens inside the hull, either.  And a 120mm gun equates to, what, an AC/5 or /10 in CBT?  Adding a bit of recoil for the bigger guns in MWLL would give you at least a taste of that action.

Edit: and that 95% missing statistic sounds like BS to me; what I heard from some of the guys who were there was that they just shot all their rounds off after each engagement so they didn't have to do the paperwork of checking them back in.  Not that you can believe everything a guy in the Army tells you, but it fits with the natural inclination to "streamline" processes that I observed in most combat MOSes. :)

Offline Odd

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Re: (Ultra)Autocannons are ridiculous.
« Reply #338 on: January 18, 2011, 09:09:53 PM »
Well, there is the recoilless rifle, which could explain both the lack of recoil and the relatively slow projectiles for the larger ACs. ;)



Even if these weapons have minimal recoil and a quick recovery (i.e. assume the mech is programmed to take the upcoming firing into account, brace for it as well as possible, and then quickly reorient after firing, much like a person learns to do with enough training/experience with firearms), it would add some good "big gun" feel to it.

Offline HAARP

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Re: (Ultra)Autocannons are ridiculous.
« Reply #339 on: January 18, 2011, 09:14:34 PM »
Recoilless rifles aren't. And they work more like rockets anyway ;)

Offline CHHš Siege

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Re: (Ultra)Autocannons are ridiculous.
« Reply #340 on: January 18, 2011, 10:37:25 PM »
... A gun that fires a 125 KG slug at Mach 4 is going to generate a shitton of recoil.
So for me, IMHO:
Recoil for the sake of realism: don't care. We ignore realism all over the place.
Recoil for the sake of making a weapon 'feel' big an epic when fired: Go for it. (But game balance trumps all)

YES. Exactly! We know railguns make recoil . In point of fact, it's retarded to even think ANY battlemech, standing on two stupid ungainly legs as they are, could EVER even FIRE an AC/20 (much less take a hit from one) and remain standing. Too many of our players want it both ways: they want everything to be EXACTLY like it is in CBT, AND they somehow want us to work in a realism factor that was never present in any meaningful in CBT.

Just FYI: when an M1A2 fires its 120mm gun the whole thing rocks like a boat in a gale.  It might not look bad in videos but it's definitely something you notice from the inside.  It's not quite as bad as the sway from slamming the brakes on, but I had the recoil knock my helmet against the driver's night sight a couple times, and that's with the tank stopped, me sitting in a recliner, and the sight 6" away.  We can't simulate the punch-to-the-plexus, ears-almost-popping pressure change that happens inside the hull, either.  And a 120mm gun equates to, what, an AC/5 or /10 in CBT?  Adding a bit of recoil for the bigger guns in MWLL would give you at least a taste of that action.

Edit: and that 95% missing statistic sounds like BS to me; what I heard from some of the guys who were there was that they just shot all their rounds off after each engagement so they didn't have to do the paperwork of checking them back in.  Not that you can believe everything a guy in the Army tells you, but it fits with the natural inclination to "streamline" processes that I observed in most combat MOSes. :)

This sounds about right. I didn't have the time or energy to go research the real numbers, but something sounded REALLY wrong about his stats and I was hoping someone who had actually sat in an M1 recently might come to the fore. Your conclusion sounds consistent with the Army and the soldiers I grew up with, and seems a much more plausible explanation. If you don't shoot all your ammo, you don't get as much during the next disbursement cycle: ask any active US military personnel, they know - so does any Canadian who ever trained with the US Army and was surprised by the amount of ammo we waste on training when they usually get (got? has anything changed?) a few clips a year.

And yes, for reference, I know full well how much recoil an M1 experiences when firing that 120mm (yes, the equivalent of a mere AC/10), which is why I keep trying to point out that this is a GAME - heck it's not even a proper simulator - and you can't have it both ways. You simply cannot make CBT "realistic" because if you did, the vast majority of the premises CBT is based on would have to be disposed of, and you'd wind up playing WoT with lasers, pew pew pew. We balance for fun and playability, and the operative word here is "balance", with CBT being on one side and reality on the other, and we try and keep the pivot point of the whole equation in that delicate zone comprising fun, playability, ease of use as immersion.

I really don't have a problem with a little recoil screen effect for immersion after firing AC's, so long as it doesn't really affect my aim: there are enough factors involved there that make it difficult enough as it is, and I just don't see a reason why we should introduce a mechanic that will widen the gap even further between the average players and the very best.

Recoilless rifles aren't. And they work more like rockets anyway ;)

Yep, I've said this numerous times in the last few years on these forums and linked repeatedly to both articles on them as well as Murphy's Laws of Combat where this is law #2. I'm all for doing everything we can to increase immersion and realism as much as possible, so long as it doesn't negatively (or seriously) impact the already delicate and WIP game balance.

There is, however, the LAHAT round: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAHAT

It would still generate some recoil of course, though it can't possibly be anywhere near as bad as the 120mm itself.
(i.e. assume the mech is programmed to take the upcoming firing into account, brace for it as well as possible, and then quickly reorient after firing, much like a person learns to do with enough training/experience with firearms)

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Offline IG142

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Re: (Ultra)Autocannons are ridiculous.
« Reply #341 on: January 18, 2011, 11:52:42 PM »
An observation...

The argument against random deviation is that it takes control away from the player.
The argument against recoil is that it widens the gap between elite players who know how to compensate and new players.

Random deviation, since it cannot be controlled by the player, hurts elites more than rookies as the elites run up against the maximum possible precision. Thus, it narrows the rookie/elite gap slightly. Non-random recoil widens this gap, as it represents yet another thing players need to learn.

Random is bad because it hurts elite players, non-random is bad because it hurts new players?

I'm not arguing anything here, but it just seems slightly contradictory.
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Re: (Ultra)Autocannons are ridiculous.
« Reply #342 on: January 19, 2011, 12:52:13 AM »
Disregarding all notion of "elite" and "new" players.
 
Introducing random elements into the player initiated actions (i.e. firing a weapon at a target) you would create a situation where the player does "X" and expects "Y" but instead gets "Y+Z".
 
If my aim is true and the weapon is sound, pulling the trigger on a target my expectation is that I will hit that target.  If there are other factors introduced (gravity, air resistance, rotation of the Earth) then those factors are only "random" if I don't understand and account for them.
 
What I'm getting at is, in MWLL if you are firing a Large Beam Laser at a target 500m away and your shot goes 2.6 degrees wide "just because" some rand() function decided to spite you in that microsecond then you should have every reason to be pissed off.  You had taken all steps necessary to line up a decent shot in your reticule (which isn't reflecting the random deviation) at the target only to have a reasonable result denied.  This is why random is avoided when possible.
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Offline HAARP

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Re: (Ultra)Autocannons are ridiculous.
« Reply #343 on: January 19, 2011, 01:49:24 AM »
That's why I'm all for "randomness" that is predictable, at least to a degree. But you guys manage to masterfully ignore that every time :P

Offline CHHš Siege

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Re: (Ultra)Autocannons are ridiculous.
« Reply #344 on: January 19, 2011, 02:12:47 AM »



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