Author Topic: Can a dev tell me what role the Thor is suposed to have?  (Read 698 times)

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Offline (TLL)Andreas

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Can a dev tell me what role the Thor is suposed to have?
« on: January 08, 2011, 01:39:32 PM »
At the moment (0.4.3) there is no reason what so ever to take a Thor over a Loki, and no the fact that the Thor is cheaper do not count as it still costs over 80k. I am also disregarding the Thor's current view limit as that is a bug.

And now for some fact to back up my statements.

The Thor, all variants have the same amount of armour.
- <Modification name="A">
- <Elems>
  <Elem idRef="idComponentHead" name="damageMax" value="3000" />
  <Elem idRef="idComponentLeftTorso" name="damageMax" value="4466" />
  <Elem idRef="idComponentCenterTorso" name="damageMax" value="6870" />
  <Elem idRef="idComponentRightTorso" name="damageMax" value="4466" />
  <Elem idRef="idComponentBackTorso" name="damageMax" value="5153" />
  <Elem idRef="idComponentLeftArm" name="damageMax" value="4122" />
  <Elem idRef="idComponentRightArm" name="damageMax" value="4122" />
  <Elem idRef="idComponentRightExternal" name="damageMax" value="4909" />
  <Elem idRef="idComponentLeftLeg" name="damageMax" value="5840" />
  <Elem idRef="idComponentRightLeg" name="damageMax" value="5840" />


The Loki, all variants have the same amount of armour.
- <Modification name="E">
- <Elems>
  <Elem idRef="idComponentHead" name="damageMax" value="3000" />
  <Elem idRef="idComponentLeftTorso" name="damageMax" value="4261" />
  <Elem idRef="idComponentCenterTorso" name="damageMax" value="6555" />
  <Elem idRef="idComponentRightTorso" name="damageMax" value="4261" />
  <Elem idRef="idComponentBackTorso" name="damageMax" value="4916" />
  <Elem idRef="idComponentLeftArm" name="damageMax" value="3933" />
  <Elem idRef="idComponentRightArm" name="damageMax" value="3933" />
  <Elem idRef="idComponentLeftExternal" name="damageMax" value="4909" />
  <Elem idRef="idComponentRightExternal" name="damageMax" value="4909" />
  <Elem idRef="idComponentLeftLeg" name="damageMax" value="5571" />
  <Elem idRef="idComponentRightLeg" name="damageMax" value="5571" />

Thor ct/ Loki ct = 6870/6555 = 1.04805
Thor lt/ Loki lt = 4466/4261 = 1.04811

This shows that the Thor only have 5% more armour then a Loki, now lets take a look at how much weapons it loses for that pointless extra armour.

Thor A
1xStreakSRM6
1xClan_ER_Large_Beam_Laser
1xClan_UAC20
2xFlamers
Jumpjets
2 dhs (the xml file say 2 but in game it says it only have 1)
0 Tons for ammo


Loki E 
2xClan_UAC20
1xClan_StreakSRM6
2xMgun
GECM
0 dhs
3 Tons for ammo

And here we can see that the Thor A trades 1 CUAC20 for 1 Clan large laser(a bad trade-off), the cssrm6 gets downgraded to ssrm6 (not much to say, its just a downgrade), 2xflamers= 2x Mguns(are equivalent).
So the question is, is JJ and 5% more armour really better than GECM and 3 Tons of extra ammo? My answer is no it is not worth it.

The other Thor vs Loki variants will result in the same way,well except for Thor prime vs Loki prime because both have long range weapons but the Loki has more fire power but costs 120k compared to 80k.

But to sum up the thread my question is: Why should we even consider taking the Thor when the Loki is just plain better and only costs a little more?

(Edit) Fixed topic name (/Edit)
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 11:51:21 PM by Andreas »

Online KingLeerUK

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Re: Can a dev tell me what roll the Thor is suposed to have?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2011, 03:00:48 PM »
The current purpose of the Thor is to show that we have produced another model and deployed it into the game for testing.
 
As you might find from several other discussions, the model has some known issues (torso pitch) (textures) and it is still being worked on.
 
Loadouts for all vehicles are always in a state of flux due to our build rules being refined and discussed internally.
 
As it is now, you may use the Thor, or not.  One of the best things about MWLL is that you have freedom of choice across 22 'Mechs, and also tanks, hovercraft, aerospace...
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Offline Toth

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Re: Can a dev tell me what roll the Thor is suposed to have?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2011, 03:01:54 PM »
King said it precisely. The thor is a work in progress. A couple of things about it didn't work out for 0.4, and things like the pitch will be rectified. The variants will also be revetted, at the moment a few of them are under ton'd.

Offline ^sPikE-

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Re: Can a dev tell me what roll the Thor is suposed to have?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2011, 03:11:16 PM »
You would take the Thor because its a new mech and needs testing, and also a good player like you Andreas should be able to use the asset well, no matter if there is a better one available. You have a point but you should have also posted suggestions imo as to how to make the asset worth the money.

Im dont know much about CBT so im not fluent in mech construction, but personally i would love to see a thor with some heavy lasers.

Offline Askis

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Re: Can a dev tell me what roll the Thor is suposed to have?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2011, 04:12:25 PM »
Im dont know much about CBT so im not fluent in mech construction, but personally i would love to see a thor with some heavy lasers.

The only problem with Heavy Lasers in CBT is that they produce so much heat, you need a massive amount of DHS to be able to fire more than one per round without going into forced shutdown ::)
As an example, the Summoner Prime that carries an LBX10, LRM15 and an ERPPC has 3 tons remaining for ammo in it's basic config (which I took of Sarna).
And since you need at least one ton of ammo for each non energy weapon, you only have one ton free that probably goes into LBX ammo too.
With it's 14 DHS, it can dissipate 28 heat per round, which means it can fire all of it's weapons and jump while staying perfectly cool (27 max heat).

Now, throw out the weapons, add two Heavy Large Lasers(4 tons, 3 crits each), the max heat is now 41 (18 per HLL, 5 for jumping), you now need 21 DHS to stay cool and still have 7.5 tons free for more lasers and heatsinks or other weapons ;)
You could add some more Heavy Mediums(1 ton+2 crits each) for example, but each of those creates 7 heat when firing too, which means 3-4 additional DHS if you want to fire everything in every round...

So if you want an all Heavy Laser variant with no heat issues, 2 HLL+1 HML+1 HSL would be the max, 2 HLL+2 HML would be possible too, with 3 undissipated heat per round, if all lasers are fired and the Mech jumps.

EDIT:
I played around a bit with MWLL Variants in Solaris Skunk Werks and one thing that really surprised me, was that the 2HML+4HSL Puma is actually possible.
With it's base stats of Endo Steel Internals, a 210XL Engine and 6 tons of FF Armor, it can carry all those lasers and enough heatsinks without having to worry about heat at all, and it still has 7.5 tons/10 crits free, which means it could be made even more powerful if MWLL didn't have hard limit on pods O_o'
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 04:47:18 PM by Askis »

Offline ~SJ~ Xarg Talasko

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Re: Can a dev tell me what roll the Thor is suposed to have?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2011, 04:49:45 PM »
Is that with the gecm and masc taken into account?


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Offline Askis

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Re: Can a dev tell me what roll the Thor is suposed to have?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2011, 05:36:14 PM »
Forgot MASC, so one ton and one crit less (MASC doesn't create any heat in CBT)

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Re: Can a dev tell me what roll the Thor is suposed to have?
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2011, 05:44:34 PM »
Role would be "prototype field deployment".  Don't forget this mech is just now seeing the virtual battle field where as the other variants have several releases of revisions behind them.
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Offline tigerija

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Re: Can a dev tell me what roll the Thor is suposed to have?
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2011, 06:10:41 PM »
Never used Thor so far. Only once is a testgame.
Y, compared to Loki it aint better when it comes to firepower. But I noticed Loki dies quite easy now. Is armor reduced ? Feels like that.

But yea, its a beta.

Offline xInVicTuSx

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Re: Can a dev tell me what roll the Thor is suposed to have?
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2011, 06:20:46 PM »
The Thor suffers from being a fatass Loki on a pogo stick, which is, essentially, what it is in CBT.

The Thor is 5 tons heavier than the Loki: this is exclusively for the JJs.
The Thor has 26 tons of podspace for weapons, ammo, electronics; the Loki 28.
The Thor has 9.5? tons of armor, the Loki 8?
The Loki has a Targeting computer at 3 tons, I Thinkthe Thor has that three tons in the engine, presumably to move that five extra tons as fast as the Loki moves itself.
The Thor has 4 DHS, the Loki 3.

So assuming the Internals are otherwise the same we have.

Thor:
26Weapons/elec + 9.5ArmorFF + 15Engine + 4DHS +(3.5InternalStructure? + 4Gyro +3Cockpit)= 65 tons + 5JumpJets = 70 tons.

Loki:
28Weapons/elec + 8ArmorStandard + 12Engine + 3DHS + 3TargetingComputer + (3.5InternalStructure? + 4Gyro +3Cockpit) = 64.5? + .5 mini-fridge? :P = 65

Thus what we have here is the Thor paying essentially 8 tons for its JJs, so we have a 62 ton Targetingcomputerless Loki that jumps.
If Sarna is correct that the Loki only has 8 tons standard armor then the Summoner should have 35% more of the Loki's hitpoints IF we count the difference between standard and FF in MWLL, if we don't then it should be 12.5% more, either way more than 5%.

Other than that the Loki was essentially built to be more weapon heavy from the same mold as the Thor.
Thus the Thor must make maximum use of its JJs, which even with the improvements to the system in .4, is still difficult to utilize on a map like DeathValley.

Now for the crux of the problem IMO

The Loki should only have 3 DHS... the mwll has 6... the reason for this I'm fairly sure is that 3 ton Targeting computer doesn't exist in MWLL so the tonnage had to go somewhere, I assume the Apods went into electronics instead.
Meanwhile the Thor has its canon 4 DHS. Thus the Thor should be able to fire more than the Loki without overheating like a bitch, but in reality, it can't cause the Loki has more heatsinks.

We will see how the devs handle the targeting computer problem going into the future.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 06:27:29 PM by xInVicTuSx »

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Offline Frostiken

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Re: Can a dev tell me what roll the Thor is suposed to have?
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2011, 06:39:01 PM »
CBT armour values vs. MWLL totals vs. MWLL Center Torsos

Hollander II: 108
Hellbringer: 128
Uziel: 128
Shadow Cat: 134
Bushwacker: 161
Mad Dog: 163
Summoner: 182
Catapult: 192
Thanatos: 208
Nova Cat: 216
Warhammer: 217
Timber Wolf: 230

Hollander II: 31498
Shadow Cat: 36000
Uziel: 42985
Mad Dog: 44999
Catapult: 46500
Bushwacker: 46501
Hellbringer: 46910
Summoner: 48788
Thanatos: 50999
Nova Cat: 58502
Warhammer: 59998
Timber Wolf: 61500

Hollander II: 4790
Shadow Cat: 5546
Uziel: 6050
Hellbringer: 6555
Bushwacker: 6641
Summoner: 6870
Mad Dog: 7059
Catapult: 7311
Thanatos: 8067
Timber Wolf: 8182
Warhammer: 8702
Nova Cat: 9328
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 07:22:22 PM by Frostiken »

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Re: Can a dev tell me what roll the Thor is suposed to have?
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2011, 06:59:35 PM »
Hellbringer: 128  /  51819 - what the fapp
In-fapping-deed. Hellbringers have paper armor. Not so much in MWLL. No, we rather declare the Osiris to be the paper-armor-bearer, while it actually had more decent protection for its weight than the Hellbringer in Battletech.

And the Summoner really needs to be adjusted for MWLL building rules. How is anything supposed to work right when variants don't adhere to their own building rules? (such as no ES/FF, XL on everything, free ammo with every gun, reduced tonnage on most guns, etc)

Offline Spanish Inquisition

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Re: Can a dev tell me what roll the Thor is suposed to have?
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2011, 07:05:20 PM »
Man, everybody's got their panties in a bunch over the Summoner being more or less balls. The devs aren't stupid; I bet this will change by 0.4.4/0.4.balancerevision.
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Offline ~SJ~ Xarg Talasko

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Re: Can a dev tell me what roll the Thor is suposed to have?
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2011, 07:10:05 PM »
I wouldn't say the Summoner is balls, so much as it... didn't live up to expectations set by its overachieving little brother.


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Offline Frostiken

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Re: Can a dev tell me what roll the Thor is suposed to have?
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2011, 07:14:22 PM »
Actually I'll partially redact that Hellbringer one - those armour values include two external pods. The Hellbringer only has one external pod - however it's interesting to note that this means it got an armour buff of sorts to protect the external, whereas the Timberwolf did not. With one external this means the Hellbringer armour is 46910.

This explains why Timberwolves feel flimsy as fapp. They have CT armour of 8182, Novacats are 9328, Thanatos is 8167.

The Summoner is 6870 and the Hellbringer is 6155 though. This actually translates to the Summoner being hilariously underarmored.

I'll update my list with CT comparisons as well. Standby.