VTOLs vs AA Balancing 0.4.3

[Evgen]

VTOLs don't appear to have the bonus multipliers from damage (LBX, AC's, etc) that Aerospace has. I can blast a V-tol with the 2 LBX-20 and 2 LBX-10 Shiva and it won't even take them down in one shot.

Wrong. Personnaly I died many times from one shot of LBX Shiva piloted by Ch33bakka (sorry if I am wrong with nickname). It was head to head, or kill from side when he approached with passive radar. 

VTOLs vs Aerospace is unbalanced if the pilot is good. VTOLs can out turn any Aerospace

Disagree. VTOLS vs Aerospace are balanced if both pilots are good. You are good pilot but you probably still do not know how to deal with VTOL. The best tactic is to stay far away from RAC VTOL and hit n run. It is harder to do for Shiva but is not impossible as Shiva is still faster.
As to Sulla there are loads of variants. The most simple prolly ATM one, while ERLLasers, LBX can easily ambush VTOL staying passive(invisible).  Just do not dog fight with VTOL 1 vs 1.   

As to me right now RAC VTOL is very similar to ATM Sulla as they both good vs BA (killing it with ATM from the sky is a peace of cake), Hovers, Light mech and Air targets but playing for ATM sulla is much much easy for me.
Try to play for RAC VTOL youreslf and you will learn how much efforts it requires not just for piloting but to kill anything.

[Warhammer WHM-6R]

I do not have much of an opinion either way because I have not focused enough on the matter itself but one thing is certain and that is that a VTOL is immensely harder to kill than in 0.3.2 (not that that is a bad thing)

An anecdote:
Playing sandblasted and Evgen was piloting a VTOL a few day back. He was landsharking like a pro. Even as a dedicated AA (Huit Prime) I was still unable to kill him even once. He did repair often but was making runs at an LT that was I was dedicated defending. I was amazed at how well he was able to be between the dunes and around the rocks. I am not sure if he did eventually kill the LT but we were on TS and called out every time he came around and still did not get him.

+1 karma just for the skillz dude!

[Evgen]

Thank you. If you are talking about those well guarded LT backed by APC nearby, no, I did not manage to kill it with VTOL. I made 3 runs. 2 of them I managed to survive somehow and repair with dealing minimum damage to LT (otherwise I would be dead). On 3rd attempt I was eventually killed, I sent this useless VTOL to hell and killed both LT and APC with Sulla bomber from the first run and got only some minor damage.






 

 

[Seraph]

Good to hear both sides on these things isn't it? One guy saying he had real problems while the pilot says he just about survived it ...

Nice flying Evgen.

[Stahlseele]

I hate playing against Evgen. With a passion.
He should be forbidden from leaving the ground ._.
That man is IMPOSSIBLE in anything airborne x.x

[xInVicTuSx]

I will say this.

Partisan Prime is a nice overall damage dealer at the start of the round, but it is utter trash when it comes to AA.

Im glad its moving in this direction though, it does nice damage to mechs and hard counters hovers like the Heph.

The AC5s are so slow and hard to lead, they run out of ammo, and their flight distance is poor.

What we need is a Partisan D with x4 UAC2s, it doesn't have to be starting rank if you don't want it to be, but we REALLY need one.

[Stahlseele]

And the huey prime needs to be 1 to 5k cheaper . .
70.300 is SUCH a fapp you for people who do AA and get to 70k spawn money <.<

[IG142]

And the huey prime needs to be 1 to 5k cheaper . .
70.300 is SUCH a fapp you for people who do AA and get to 70k spawn money <.<

I think this is what cbill sharing was intended for. I've never had trouble getting an extra 5k for a AA Huit, or known anyone else having problems either. Probably because everyone likes a teammate running AA when there's aircraft around...

[Warhammer WHM-6R]

I will say this.

Partisan Prime is a nice overall damage dealer at the start of the round, but it is utter trash when it comes to AA.

Im glad its moving in this direction though, it does nice damage to mechs and hard counters hovers like the Heph.

The AC5s are so slow and hard to lead, they run out of ammo, and their flight distance is poor.

What we need is a Partisan D with x4 UAC2s, it doesn't have to be starting rank if you don't want it to be, but we REALLY need one.

+1

I also find myself in the huit prime often these days (also a good asset for a bank/long range support) and have yet to kill a vtol. Today I was even doing my best but it either was not my day, the pilots were too good or there is something to consider in the vtol armor.

I do think that the vtol deserves more than back in 0.3 and maybe it is good to keep it high until there is a heavier vtol to choose from. If the hawkmoth is intended to be a light asset it does not feel like it at the moment. Maybe a pricing adjustment is in order? Or maybe removal of the narcs so it is not potentially game ruining for a team to leave it up there?

[(TLL)TheLastSnowman]

And the huey prime needs to be 1 to 5k cheaper . .
70.300 is SUCH a fapp you for people who do AA and get to 70k spawn money <.<

1. I'd just like to point out that the Huit prime is not just a beast AA but it also does ridiculous damage at close range to mechs where it can cockpit/core very quickly. Combined with high armor, this is probably the reasoning behind the higher price.

2. I really enjoy the changes with the hawkmoth. I love flying them and before the only real reason you would take one would be to narc for other players because it was impossible to stay on station long enough to do any real damage. Now I can actually get kills against light mechs/any mechs that are heavily damaged already and sometimes hover tanks. Even with the added armor tho I fear AA simply because unlike other units it can continuously shoot me no matter how high an angle I am to it. I have been crippled by partisan primes many times and exploded by them even more times. I like the way things are right now, it makes it a challenge for both pilots and AA drivers. And yes I do also drive AA tanks so I've been on both sides of the issue. I look at it this way, even if I cant kill an air asset, if I can force him/her to retreat quickly I am doing my job. I am keeping him/her away from my allies and probably frustrating the hell out of the pilot who has to continually go back for repairs. Eventually he/she will make a mistake and I will kill him/her. 

3. ATM's = Death for aircraft. These missiles are extremely hard to dodge. These arn't like LRMs where you can lob hundreds of them at an aero of any type and expect 0-few hits. If you have them and there is an aero up USE THEM. I guarantee they will mess up that pilots day.

4. I'd also like to say in response to whoever it was who was complaining about fbombs and tbolts/narcs, it is very difficult to effectively engage AA assets without teamwork. Consider the scenario you painted. Long range passive narc, blip radar and incoming tbolts. Assuming the pilot is the one who fired the narc that means he is now coming right at the AA with a huge smoketrail leading right to him. He has to be within range of the AA because visually they dont pop up till something like 900m. Now he has to try and simultaneously stay in range for his second salvo of tbolts and try not to die while he is reloading and now the AA unit is pissed. Also, the passive narc is difficult to do from range if the target is moving so if you are having problems against this tactic, keep moving in a not easily predictable way. It doesn't even have to be very much. The real threat is teamwork with a dedicated narcing unit and then 1 or 2 tbolt sullas who can then fire from out of AA range for devastating effect. That I'll admit is hard to counter but thats how teamwork works. Its like the LT and C3. The LT can only shoot at targets it can see.

As for Fbombs they arn't all that effective against AA units until you get the shiva and then that thing is soooo slow it shouldn't be hard to take out with a sulla or a huit or a hawkmoth.

[IG142]

4. I'd also like to say in response to whoever it was who was complaining about fbombs and tbolts/narcs, it is very difficult to effectively engage AA assets without teamwork. Consider the scenario you painted. Long range passive narc, blip radar and incoming tbolts. Assuming the pilot is the one who fired the narc that means he is now coming right at the AA with a huge smoketrail leading right to him. He has to be within range of the AA because visually they dont pop up till something like 900m. Now he has to try and simultaneously stay in range for his second salvo of tbolts and try not to die while he is reloading and now the AA unit is pissed.

Why does the pilot have to wait and fire the second Tbolt? Every time I've seen this tactic they break off immediately, giving the AAA very little time to return fire. Even single salvos of Tbolts are bad news for AA vehicles, as they are too slow to repair easily.

Also, the passive narc is difficult to do from range if the target is moving so if you are having problems against this tactic, keep moving in a not easily predictable way. It doesn't even have to be very much.

AA units like the Partisan and especially the Huit and far too slow for any kind of evasive maneuvers.

The real threat is teamwork with a dedicated narcing unit and then 1 or 2 tbolt sullas who can then fire from out of AA range for devastating effect. That I'll admit is hard to counter but thats how teamwork works. Its like the LT and C3. The LT can only shoot at targets it can see.

This isn't the only real threat, just the biggest one. And I'm perfectly fine with version of the tactic.

Really, I think the best solution would be to reduce NARC range. That would eliminate Tbolt and LRM sniping completely and force either multiple passes or the teamwork method. (Hey, a good niche for sparrowhawks!)

[KorJax]

Hey I got an idea for aerospace

Lets make it so they have a lot of armor and are arbitrarily slow with very weak weapons so you'll have to make many passes over a target to do ANY worthwhile damage at all in a very cumbersome manner, because that's how the mechs do it even though it's completely unrealistic and unpractical!

It'll be totally balanced guys for Aero pilots!

Or it'll be so annoying no one will ever pilot Aerospace when mechs do the same thing but better.

Honestly where it is at now is perfectly fine. High damage, high risk.  That's what aerospace from a logical standpoint should be. I'm personally glad we've axed the pre-firebomb era of aerospace where they were all average speed  flying tanks with way to much armor that used ground based weaponry to very shitty effect.

I do think VTOL's need to have their controls fixed and to have more useful varients. The RAC5 one is a nice varient but its so hard to use due to the inconsistant controls for them. LBX5 varient? Useless. LtGauss? Useless for the same reasons as above (it doesn't help they do terrible damage by themselves). LRM one is the only good (feasable to use) one currently.

I'd personally love to see the hawkmoths have more streamlined/better controls, and axeing the LBX5 one for an SRM or even an ATM4 or so varient.

[KingLeerUK]

an ATM4 or so varient.

We can't do ATMs due to it not being a Clan asset.
 
Hawkmoth controls and relative balance are being looked at; so patience, etc.
 
Also, if we add any more Hawkmoth variants it means I get to add the "D", and you will all hate me even more...

[IG142]

Maybe I should rephrase/reconsider.

Shorter NARC ranges wouldn't force multiple passes as much as it would force passes at all. If a Sulla screams overhead and nails me with his Tbolts or Firebombs, that hurts, but I had fair chance to shoot him down. If a Raven streaks past followed by thunder from the sky, I still had a chance to take him down (well, with AA probably not, but at least my team did). If I hear a missile warning and whip my turret around to see a pair of incoming Tbolts and an off-radar Sulla at 800m already U-turning back to his hanger...that gets a little annoying.

Burst damage and low armor do make sense for Aerospace, I agree. Air vs ground balance is very good right now. My only problem is when they go for high damage without the risk, which isn't nearly as much of a problem now without the ELRM Shiva. The Tbolt+NARC Sulla is just the closest.

[HAARP]

an ATM4 or so varient.

We can't do ATMs due to it not being a Clan asset.

Tbolt Sulla ;>