VTOLs vs AA Balancing 0.4.3

[Askis]

I've played some AA yesterday and today and I've gotta say, if you can lead it's pretty much spot on.
The RAC2 Partisan is a monster if an Aero is in it's 800m range, even against Shivas, the Huit Prime rips apart Sparrows in seconds, Sullas don't take much longer either, can't tell how they do against Shivas.
Hawkmoths do take a ton of rounds from the Huit though, even the LRM one, although their almost constant up&down bobbing makes it harder to lead them too...

[Taemien]

You gotta be good at flying a VTOL to be great at swatting them down.

I have no issues swatting them down unless all I have are LRM's. Don't use LRMs unless you're 350 meters away and firing from their side (50% they'll turn 90 degrees to see where the missiles are coming from and get nailed).

ATMs will hit 50% of the time, but thats enough to tear them up. They HAVE to go evasive after that and if they don't get 850+ away they die, unless they know where the missiles are coming from and know wtf they are doing.

AC5's do great damage, but Lasers are your best bet. Lasers people, the best AA weapon in the game. Well best if you have 30+FPS.

[Come and See]

Honestly where it is at now is perfectly fine. High damage, high risk.  That's what aerospace from a logical standpoint should be. I'm personally glad we've axed the pre-firebomb era of aerospace where they were all average speed  flying tanks with way to much armor that used ground based weaponry to very shitty effect.

It seems more like a punishment when it comes to score loss and de-ranking from crashing from stupidity or elements beyond your control. That and getting instantly gibbed from full hp by the Shiva E or anything sporting 2 LBX-20 isn't fun either.

Also, I thought they nerfed F-bomb's but they're just as strong as they were last patch.

[Frostiken]

Its like the LT and C3. The LT can only shoot at targets it can see.

It's nothing like the LT and C3. The Long Tom doesn't come with its own see-everything-shoot-everything capability whereas the TBolt Sulla does (has its own NARCs). The LT without the C3 is basically useless, as LT shells have rather small splash, are easily defeated by cover (Long Toms can't really just fly around and shoot from directly above you), and have rather long travel times so mid to long-range engaging is a crapshoot at best. C3 is necessary to even begin to describe the Long Tom as 'functional'. It basically mandates two people while TBolt Sullas do not. A Long Tom with C3 is an inconvenience. Two or more TBolt Sullas working together is GG.

The only arguments I ever hear used to try to describe TBolts as being balanced is that they 'turn really slowly'. Unless the pilot is a retard this is hardly an issue, actually, it might be a great asset. Whereas LRMs and other such missiles are quick and maneuverable (relatively speaking), this means that they'll immediately seek in at the point the NARC is at when they're fired. As the target moves, they'll try to follow it, which is why a unit running perpendicular to an LRM salvo will miss most of them or take the damage in the arm, vs. the center torso.

TBolts are NOT slow missiles (in just about every unit, they're fast enough that you cannot functionally do much besides jumpjet when you see them coming... even an Osiris doesn't accelerate that fast). They do have limited turning, which is why you fire them where you think the unit is going. They'll try to track the NARC as usual, but because they can't whip around the back of the unit, leading a moving target will probably net you greater success than with LRMs, assuming you're good enough at it.

Tbolts are stupid powerful and not nearly the gimped weapons pilots want you to think they are. They do have their limits and for that reason I hardly think they're the most broken ASF weapon (that's reserved for FBombs). However what is broken is the fact that AA units are the slow, unmaneuverable kinds that are absolutely perfect for the passive NARC / quick-TBolt maneuver and there's no god damn way a Huit will ever be able to dodge a TBolt. This is why I support removing the NARC from the TBolt variants *or* reducing the NARC range to 200m, which necessitates at least two passes.

[Kadreal]

Just remove the Narc from the Sulla and give it a TAG laser. If it wants the missiles to home it, it can damn well stay on target.

[Frostiken]

it can damn well stay on target.

I'm not saying it, but we're all thinking it

[Perk]

I do think VTOL's need to have their controls fixed and to have more useful varients. The RAC5 one is a nice varient but its so hard to use due to the inconsistant controls for them. LBX5 varient? Useless. LtGauss? Useless for the same reasons as above (it doesn't help they do terrible damage by themselves). LRM one is the only good (feasable to use) one currently.

I'd personally love to see the hawkmoths have more streamlined/better controls, and axeing the LBX5 one for an SRM or even an ATM4 or so varient.

OMG please no.  The VTOL controls are perfect as of 0.4.3.  The Hawkmoth files just like an overpowered helicopter, and circle-strafing it with full opposite rudder is one of the greatest things ever.  It's just got so many tricks up its sleeve, I can't count the number of times I've maneuver killed Sullas by diving nose down for the deck and then catching it on the fans at the last second as the Sulla realizes he can't pull up and goes splat =P

I agree on the Lt. Gauss version, but the LBX5 version is by far the best AA platform in the game.  You don't have to hold fire on target with them like you do with the RAC, and three shots will down a Sulla.  It gives you freedom to maneuver between shots and line up on the target instead of just reacting to him to try and keep the RAC stream pipped.  The LBXs also have a much longer effective range once you learn how to lead them.  It *is* useless against ground targets, but the air-superiority it brings to the table more than makes up for that.

I'll get on when I get home tomorrow and capture some video if you don't believe me; the LBX5 variant really is a beast.

[KorJax]

an ATM4 or so varient.

We can't do ATMs due to it not being a Clan asset.
 
Hawkmoth controls and relative balance are being looked at; so patience, etc.
 
Also, if we add any more Hawkmoth variants it means I get to add the "D", and you will all hate me even more...

I don't think anyone will complain if more hawkmoth varients are added since its the only VTOL currently.

Unless of course you are referring to the hawkmoth D that has a bajillion weapons on it. 

Also when I mentioned VTOL controls, I didn't their flying physics/mechanics (which are pretty solid) but simply how you control them. It's simply unintuitive and pretty hard to land a good shot with them when your left-right motion is A+D while the up-down motion is the Y axis on your mouse.

Why not have them control similar to the Crysis VTOLS? Simple aiming using left-right-up-down on the mouse, control throttle and roll using keyboard (like every other asset).  Would work great and make the varients that require aiming much more useful (as useful as a single light gauss can get..)

[DFDelta]

Also, if we add any more Hawkmoth variants it means I get to add the "D", and you will all hate me even more...

Add new variants, but do not add a "D".

It would be variants P,A,B,C,E,F then.
Newcomers will wonder wtf went wrong there, and then we can link them to the wiki page for the true Hawkmoth D 


btw...
Still waiting for a 2xDSRM6 Hawkmoth 

[dsi1]

The only thing I don't understand is the people whining about how the Tbolt (BIG SLOW HEAVY DAMAGE) destroyed or heavily damaged them in their *SLOW LARGE VEHICLE/MECH*. Maybe you should grab something better built for the situation instead of trying to brute force your *100 TON TANK/MECH* into every role?

I have no problems with any aero because I 1) Get something fast 2) Get something small 3) Watch my radar and the skyline and 4) Travel perpendicular to any incoming aero. Grab an ATM Puma or Cougar, heck even the ATM Vulture is good for this, though it is on the slow end of the scale, and shoot back. Fire your missiles when they are traveling away from you for maximum effect.

Most of my issues are with VTOLs now, since the good ones know who is really hitting them and start getting out of their LoS. (and then wait until you go off and do something else to strike again >:| )

[Perk]

I don't think anyone will complain if more hawkmoth varients are added since its the only VTOL currently.

Unless of course you are referring to the hawkmoth D that has a bajillion weapons on it. 

Also when I mentioned VTOL controls, I didn't their flying physics/mechanics (which are pretty solid) but simply how you control them. It's simply unintuitive and pretty hard to land a good shot with them when your left-right motion is A+D while the up-down motion is the Y axis on your mouse.

Why not have them control similar to the Crysis VTOLS? Simple aiming using left-right-up-down on the mouse, control throttle and roll using keyboard (like every other asset).  Would work great and make the varients that require aiming much more useful (as useful as a single light gauss can get..)

Roll and pitch should be on the same main control whether your flying a helicopter or a Cessna.  Yaw on pedals (or keyboard).  Anything else is unintuitive for anyone that's ever flown a flight sim or a real airplane.

I'm all for options though, and afaik there's no reason you couldn't already set things up as you described.  At least I know you can setup a joystick with either yaw or roll on the X axis and pitch on the Y axis.  I'm assuming you can do the same with the mouse by editing the actionmaps.xml but I've never actually tried.

As long as it's configurable, I really don't care how you set up the default controls, but it would ruin things for me if I were forced to have pitch and yaw on the joystick instead of pitch and roll.  Admittedly though, having rudder pedals that I can program sensitivity curves into means that aiming effectively in the yaw axis isn't particularly hard.  It would be considerably more difficult to do with a keyboard...

[Come and See]

The only thing I don't understand is the people whining about how the Tbolt (BIG SLOW HEAVY DAMAGE) destroyed or heavily damaged them in their *SLOW LARGE VEHICLE/MECH*.

A lot of people love to slam on their brakes and look up at you as you're lining up to fire on them which is a big mistake.

The safest way to avoid any aerospace pilot lining up on you is to move sideways and into them as they're passing by. It's about 3 times harder to hit a side-ways moving target and you'll watch as F-bomb's and Thunderbolt's go flying past you.

[~SJ~ Griffin]

I have to agree with Heretic on this one. Was on Frostbite a few days ago, driving around in my 4xAC partisan, and I couldn't even drop the armor on one of the 4 hawkmoths above me to orange. Granted, if I had a sulla I could easily tear them to shreds, but there are maps that do not allow for fixed wing flight and thus the Hawkmoth becomes nearly invincible in the start of the game.

Another example, I took a demo B (2xLBX 20s) on the same frostbite match, and was able to hit a hawkmoth, straight on at about 400m. His armor went from yellow to slightly red so he just flew back to base and repaired. That is just wrong.  2xLBXs to face of most light mechs is a instagib, it should be the same for hawkmoths.

[xInVicTuSx]

an ATM4 or so varient.

We can't do ATMs due to it not being a Clan asset.

Tbolt Sulla ;>

Oh ho! I see what you did thar. 

[AlfalphaCat]

Are you guy's using chainfire in your Parti Primes?  It helps alot when taking on aircraft of all types.  I don't mind VTOLs being tougher. 

As for Tbolts and firebombs, they are totally avoidable.  Maybe you don't have the time all the time, and get blow'd up, but ya gotta die sometime.

Frosty will never be happy that aircraft are in game, I stopped reading his anti-aero post a while back, they are fine L2P.