Author Topic: JJ heat  (Read 1381 times)

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Offline Frostiken

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JJ heat
« on: January 14, 2011, 04:14:48 AM »
The heat is dumb in principle and sucks. /thread.


Okay but seriously, I don't get this. I'll start with jumpjets - why do we need the massivehuge wtf heat spike? Now Toth already mentioned that they'll lose some heat generation in future versions (or at least he suggested it might), but I'm more concerned with any high level of heat generation period. And here's my case on this one:

Jumpjets are tricky to use. By and large most of their use is constrained to utility (terrain mantling and environment navigation) and poptarting. Another common use is dodging long-range artillery fire (LRMs, Arrow IVs, Fbombs). The role of JJs in combat is ridiculously situational and in many cases questionable, as it more often than not can spell your doom. Associated with the use of jumpjets is the massive list of caveats. Short burn time. Extremely long recharge. Limited mobility. Predictable movements. Complete loss of speed on landing. Screen shake. And, the tremendous heat buildup. The heat generation is so intense a single full burn generates heat on par with a PPC alpha strike or Heavy Large Lasers. In other words, if you use heat to take the edge off the most powerful weapons in the game, jumpjets are godlike weapons of mass destruction. I find that claim debatable but that's not the point.

The point is, jumpjets severely and unfairly penalize their use in combat for really no good reason. Poptarts, long-range dodging, and terrain mantling have very little need to worry about the heat all too much, as in all these cases it's unlikely you'll be firing all your weapons full-bore, running at high speeds, and being extremely reliant on all your mobility and the full capabilities of your mech for survival. The very nature of poptarting lets you just cool down, idly fire your jets, shoot your weapons, maybe tap some coolant, land, and casually wait for it to recharge. Using JJs in combat to perform tricky maneuvers like evasion and escape is punished by the caveats more than any other use. The speed drain is utterly lethal, the heat generation *will* push your mech so far into redline you could lean against a rock and melt a hole in it, the general predictability and rather slow speed means you often times end up as an easy target, and the short burn time / long recharge means if and when you use them, you'd better use them right because you might not get a second chance.

So my point is this: Are jumpjets so lolimba that we seriously need to have anything more than a very modest heat penalty applied to it? Something on the order of firing an MPL or two? The heat penalty only serves to punish the hardest way to use them, and I just don't see the damn point. Aren't they crippled enough in other ways? Even without the heat they're still going to be painfully difficult to use well. It likely wouldn't even lead to additional jumpjet use, as the existing list of drawbacks impressively already curtails their overuse (that and the overlong recharge time).


The draconian penalties and permanent damage associated with excess heat generation in 0.4.X precludes the use of these things even nearly as effectively as they used to be able to.



On a secondary note, I personally believe that MASC should be able to be used much more freely than it can be now. Adjust MASC heat generation to follow a curve - lots at the beginning, less at the end, so that if you're doing nothing but moving, you can MASC without limit. MASC while already hot will push you over redline just the same as it is now... but the difference is you don't need your mech submerged into the bottom of the Arctic Ocean to use MASC more than a few seconds without setting fire to trees you pass by. Effectively this means that when you have MASC on, you lose a huge chunk of heat capacity. Your choice is mostly to use mobility, use weaponry, or be skilled enough to balance both. Mostly I want this change due to the new heat penalties making a hot mech much less viable to play as and the minor benefits this would provide to MASC-capable mechs as far as raw mobility is concerned.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 04:30:52 AM by Frostiken »

Offline Ice30

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Re: JJ heat
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2011, 04:35:31 AM »
I think the JJ do seriously need a buff in some way, because at the moment either their long recharge or heat generation makes them either extremely situational or completley useless in combat. However, i think MASC is fine, the way it balances against the slower units seems to be good.  It creates a strategy in combat where you are either going to use the coolant to cool down your mech when firing lazers etc or if you are going to save its use for a quick get away. Also I like how its balanced with TC too, it lets you get to the points faster than almost anything else, on par with a VTOL, but you have to go for short bursts of sprinting which is what MASC has really always been about.

Offline xInVicTuSx

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Re: JJ heat
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2011, 04:36:06 AM »
Agree on the JJs, but I see a reduction in heat as sufficient to help fix them. A bit more than a MPL, but not so much as its not an option to use them on low heatsink mechs.

MASC is tougher, I'm not sure I want to be able to lolspam my MASC on my Thanny C, though it would be nice, it would feel kinda strange.
Perhaps curtail the heat down for smaller mechs but keep it harsh on larger ones?

(BTW: Thanatos C needs a couple DHS now more than ever, I thought the UAC heat cut would help but it doesn't because now flamers create lots of heat. A few K increase and price and removing that silly MBL would be sufficient. )


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Offline ~SJ~ Wolf

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Re: JJ heat
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2011, 04:36:27 AM »
I support this post.

Offline Salvatoris

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Re: JJ heat
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2011, 04:39:45 AM »
Between the heat and the dead stop on landing, I don't even feel like jets are worth having.  If you run more than four steps with masc on and then jump, you shut down. :/

Offline Nitro_R

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Re: JJ heat
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2011, 04:42:28 AM »
I approve of this post.

I think MASC should nix the heat and just damage your legs and deactivate after a random time.

Offline ~SJ~ Griffin

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Re: MASC/JJ heat
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2011, 04:42:57 AM »
Actually I thinks the jumpjets are just about good where they are at; they do need some tweaking but no need for a major overhaul. The heat spikes are there to discourage poptarting which really would be a piece of cake without the heat. Even with the screen shake one could easily snipe away at the enemy team poptarting which is just wrong. Especially mechs like the novacat, and shadowcat who carry JJs and easy-to-use long range weaponry. The heat from the JJs forces the player to either a)use coolant or b) wait for the heat to dissipate. Blowing coolant will only allow the player a few poptarts and when you have to wait it opens you up to counterattacks.

These factors make poptarting a rare thing, especially on maps like Marshes where there is no aerospace to take out the poptarters. Additionally, I actually have found JJs, in .4.3, to be very useful in all sorts of engagements. It is the perfect thing to use to vault over base walls in TC to escape enemy fire or sneak into the other side of a base; also allows for escaping the base when the enemy comes charging. Example: in a hollander prime on kagoshima, I effectively held back a warhammer till allies could arrive by constantly jumpjetting in and out of the base. The warhammer would try to stay in the base but I would poptart and snipe him so he would charge out. I blew my coolant and jumpjetted back to the base and started again, rinse and repeat.

On SA mode, I constantly use to jumpjets to escape nasty firefights. When stuck in a medium while heavies are tearing each other up it can be a quick death for you. But with JJs and some nearby allies you can vault behind them, and keep the outskirts of the battle while providing support fire.  I don't think JJs will ever be what people expect them to be (a sort of surprise weapon, used in close range to get better position on an enemy) but this is more of restrictions on the engine than the devs fault, but I do think we can use them effectively as they stand now.

For MASC, the amazing benefit it gives deserves a massive heat. When fighting other players, MASC can be the perfect weapon if you can get the timing down of when they fire. Especially against laser-wielding assets. On a somewhat unrelated topic, does anyone else randomly come to a full stop while in the MASC-equipped variants of the Puma? Because I do and it is extremely annoying.

/Griffin-wonders why Frost included fbombs with long rang artillery. I wish I could use them at long range  ;D .

Offline AlfalphaCat

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Re: JJ heat
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2011, 04:44:12 AM »
The heat penalty for JJ's is a bit much.  MASC is only supposed to be able to boost for short duration, as Ice30 stated.  It's easily dealt with by using coolant, usually. 

I think some Mechs should still have to think twice about using JJ's due to heat, just for variety sake.  Same with MASC, some Mechs should have better ability to deal with the heat than others.

The main problem I see here is, in order for JJ's to be useful, you almost always need to use the full burst, and there aren't many Mechs that can handle that much heat.

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Offline ~SJ~Azov

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Re: JJ heat
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2011, 04:48:04 AM »
I approve of this post

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Offline Frostiken

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Re: JJ heat
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2011, 04:50:38 AM »
The problem with using JJs to escape a furball situation is that if you're in a furball you're more than likely at ultra-high heat levels anyway and using you jumpjets the MINIMUM required to mantle a wall is going to leave ribbons of slagged armor trailing behind you.

Offline ~SJ~Azov

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Re: JJ heat
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2011, 04:52:27 AM »
The problem with using JJs to escape a furball situation is that if you're in a furball you're more than likely at ultra-high heat levels anyway and using you jumpjets the MINIMUM required to mantle a wall is going to leave ribbons of slagged armor trailing behind you.

not to mention that you will come to a complete stop afterwards...JJ in combat is useless.

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Offline HAARP

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Re: JJ heat
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2011, 04:54:38 AM »
I approve of this post. Also: directional jumpjets.

I think MASC should nix the heat and just damage your legs and deactivate after a random time.
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Offline Ice30

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Re: JJ heat
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2011, 04:56:30 AM »
I think a good and suitable buff to JJ would be to remove the complete stop you come to after using them, or reduce it in some manner and to reduce the massive heat generation.  I dont think reducing the heat generation would effect poptarting because generaly the wait time on the JJ recharge is longer than it takes for your mech to cool down anyway.

Offline Frostiken

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Re: JJ heat
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2011, 04:59:16 AM »
I think MASC should nix the heat and just damage your legs and deactivate after a random time.

!!! That would be harsh, at least the leg damage. I suppose you could function it like rotary autocannons with the 'jam' meter, so that MASC functions as its own heat - but I still believe it should have very noticable impacts on your mech's overall heat so you do NOT get free MASC while in combat.

The way I picture it is that MASC only heats up to... I don't know, let's say 40% of your heat capacity. So that, adjusted for ambient temperature of course, in a completely neutral situation, running full speed while using MASC will fill your heat bar up to 40%. Adjusting it for chassis weight would be a nice touch as well. Using it in short bursts would obviously only generate short spikes of heat. Functionally, this just puts a top-end at the MASC heat generation. If your mech is already at 80% capacity, using MASC for a few seconds will sling you way over the redline. You wouldn't actually get any free use out of MASC like this, but you wouldn't find your reactor about to explode while using it as you often can (and jumpjets). It's just a heat cap on it.

I just find it hard to justify that MASC is so intense that it will melt you into the ground when you're not doing anything else, that your heatsinks are so inept they can't eventually reach an equilibrium. But I'm also against coolant, so go figure :)

With heatsinks being able to be cracked by high heat, with the heat damage threshold being lowered, these two systems have lost serious functionality as you no longer can afford to push the heat limits in order to use them as effectively as you once could. I honestly think I've cracked my Shadowcat's heatsink 10x more than I have in any energy boat and it's completely to blame on these two. I'm not using them any more than I used to, it's just that heat overgeneration is so critical :/




Actually hell, how about that? Cap MASC heat to a set level as I mentioned based on chassis weight, and stick in a 'jam' meter like for RACs/UACs. Now you get your MASC without runaway heat levels but without unlimited use. Jamming your MASC would negatively impact your top speed for a while as the myomer is worn out and basically needs to take a break.

Offline ~SJ~ Wolf

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Re: JJ heat
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2011, 05:00:10 AM »
I approve of this post. Also: directional jumpjets.

I think MASC should nix the heat and just damage your legs and deactivate after a random time.
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Not random at all, just add a redline to JJs/MASC and add dmg if you exceed it. Nothing much but something to keep you wary of being legged in the long term.