JJ heat

[~SJ~ Wolf]

JJ head reduction suggestion is good

MASC i dunno, I think a lot of people might be using very differently.  Mostly I use it in quick burst while brawling to help dodge shots and cut steep angle with burst of acceleration used in mid/low speed maneuvering.  The only mech that gives me issues with when using MASC is the Thanny as it seems to heat up a LOT more than say the MASC on an Owens.

There is no reason for MASC to heat the core. It doesn't make sense and is overly punishing.

[Taemien]

I like the current JJ heat mechanic for one reason and one reason only.

I was getting ready to bomb a Arrow IV catapult the other day. He saw me coming. He stupidly jumped after firing the Arrows and then exploded mid air before I could drop my payload. 

But other then that, I think JJ heat needs to be there. But not at the point it is right now. But I also wouldn't mind seeing it still be bad enough that laserboat jump sniping isn't common. Maybe allow you to do it once and then you gotta wait a bit.

Like maybe assume the time it takes for you JJ to recharge is the time it takes for all the heat to run off from the last jump, assuming firing no other weapons and the climate is average. So if you exaggerate it by firing loads of lasers or missiles, then you gotta wait for that heat to pour off before jumping again or you are gonna blow out some heatsinks or cause damage.

[Salvatoris]

Running masc should add a certain amount of heat, it shouldn't generate more and more heat over time.  Having masc cause you to overheat and shutdown in under 10 seconds of use isn't consistent with either the Battletech fiction or any of the previous mech games.  Simply running with MASC on should never cause you to shutdown. 

I'd love to see Jump Jets heat dramatically reduced as well as having the stop on landing removed.  Unfortunately I don't think the devs feel like Jump Jets should be as useful or functional in this game as they have been in every mechwarrior game or book.  I expect stiff penalties for jump jet use to stick around.

[Taemien]

Masc heatup (at least in 0.3.2) is relative to CPU speed.

I noticed this when I upgraded from a 2.2 quadcore to a 3.5 quadcore. I was able to run masc for almost 5 minutes straight in a Raven Prime prior to upgrade, but only 15-20 seconds after. No update to MWLL at all, same machine except for new MoBo, RAM, GPU, and CPU. Harddrive was the same, same installation of windows and everything (just updated drivers).

[=CJW= Rad Hanzo]

As far as I understood the trick when using JJ on the move is to cut speed in midair and gentle bring it back when coming into the landing sequence, so you have a rolling start of some sort...i only happened to pull this off twice in 2xPPC Osiris, where I jumped, shot my PPCs over a ridge, cut speed to zero by accident and then in hectic put it back to a third or so...gave me a nice roll-in from landing to 30 kp/h.

Sure, its not what many of us are used to (MW4 soft-landing feature) but the fact remains that catapulting 30+ metric tons of non-aerodynamically formed metal are going to have some impact (try to calculate the landing force for 2-feeted machines dropping from more than 30 meters height and having a touching zone of lets say 2squaremeters for both feet accumulated^^) when they touch ground again(think of the jolt any vehicle is suffering when getting airborne and touching ground again...forward momentum will be still there, but some will dissipate into the frame, the suspension and into anything that makes up the vehicle).

The heat spike from jumping is quite tolerable reminding the fact that you have an ability at hand that other assets lack and when properly used will ensure your victory through being able to scout-hop over ridges, poptart on the move and get to places where other assets couldnt even dream of.

And for MASC heat: acceptable as is, because: the mymomers driving your mech need a massive overdosing of energy to quicken their movement and therefore the heat should if not must build up from draining more energy from the reactor and therefore generating more heat while still being able to sufficiently power the rest of the mech as well(there is a nucular reaction in there----> more demand, more reaction, more heat ).

Just my 2 cents

<3 to the devs

[~SJ~ Griffin]

figured i would post this story here. Today on Kagoshima with an Osiris C I tried to jumpjet up one of the steppes, but I hit the ridge and bounced back. But it was a huge knock back, like i was made out of rubber or something. Was comical but really weird. 

[Defender]

The heat is dumb in principle and sucks. /thread.


Okay but seriously, I don't get this. I'll start with jumpjets - why do we need the massivehuge wtf heat spike? Now Toth already mentioned that they'll lose some heat generation in future versions (or at least he suggested it might), but I'm more concerned with any high level of heat generation period. And here's my case on this one:

Jumpjets are tricky to use. By and large most of their use is constrained to utility (terrain mantling and environment navigation) and poptarting. Another common use is dodging long-range artillery fire (LRMs, Arrow IVs, Fbombs). The role of JJs in combat is ridiculously situational and in many cases questionable, as it more often than not can spell your doom. Associated with the use of jumpjets is the massive list of caveats. Short burn time. Extremely long recharge. Limited mobility. Predictable movements. Complete loss of speed on landing. Screen shake. And, the tremendous heat buildup. The heat generation is so intense a single full burn generates heat on par with a PPC alpha strike or Heavy Large Lasers. In other words, if you use heat to take the edge off the most powerful weapons in the game, jumpjets are godlike weapons of mass destruction. I find that claim debatable but that's not the point.

The point is, jumpjets severely and unfairly penalize their use in combat for really no good reason. Poptarts, long-range dodging, and terrain mantling have very little need to worry about the heat all too much, as in all these cases it's unlikely you'll be firing all your weapons full-bore, running at high speeds, and being extremely reliant on all your mobility and the full capabilities of your mech for survival. The very nature of poptarting lets you just cool down, idly fire your jets, shoot your weapons, maybe tap some coolant, land, and casually wait for it to recharge. Using JJs in combat to perform tricky maneuvers like evasion and escape is punished by the caveats more than any other use. The speed drain is utterly lethal, the heat generation *will* push your mech so far into redline you could lean against a rock and melt a hole in it, the general predictability and rather slow speed means you often times end up as an easy target, and the short burn time / long recharge means if and when you use them, you'd better use them right because you might not get a second chance.

So my point is this: Are jumpjets so lolimba that we seriously need to have anything more than a very modest heat penalty applied to it? Something on the order of firing an MPL or two? The heat penalty only serves to punish the hardest way to use them, and I just don't see the damn point. Aren't they crippled enough in other ways? Even without the heat they're still going to be painfully difficult to use well. It likely wouldn't even lead to additional jumpjet use, as the existing list of drawbacks impressively already curtails their overuse (that and the overlong recharge time).


The draconian penalties and permanent damage associated with excess heat generation in 0.4.X precludes the use of these things even nearly as effectively as they used to be able to.



On a secondary note, I personally believe that MASC should be able to be used much more freely than it can be now. Adjust MASC heat generation to follow a curve - lots at the beginning, less at the end, so that if you're doing nothing but moving, you can MASC without limit. MASC while already hot will push you over redline just the same as it is now... but the difference is you don't need your mech submerged into the bottom of the Arctic Ocean to use MASC more than a few seconds without setting fire to trees you pass by. Effectively this means that when you have MASC on, you lose a huge chunk of heat capacity. Your choice is mostly to use mobility, use weaponry, or be skilled enough to balance both. Mostly I want this change due to the new heat penalties making a hot mech much less viable to play as and the minor benefits this would provide to MASC-capable mechs as far as raw mobility is concerned.

If it makes you feel any better I have been bitching up a storm like a whiny bitch since I'm in complete agreement with everything you've said.

[AlfalphaCat]

Words.

If it makes you feel any better I have been bitching up a storm like a whiny bitch since I'm in complete agreement with everything you've said.

Word. 

[Blu_Haze]

I support this thread.

+1 to all involved.

I especially like the idea of having a separate MASC-O-METER, as I know it would help the brawlers out a ton. You still wouldn't be able to abuse it too much in the middle of combat other than short sprints to dodge shots, as accidentally overdoing it and messing up your legs would be the equivalent of mech-suicide. It would however help immensely with run-n-gun tactics. As it is now, I try to refrain from charging in with full MASC because I know it'll mean having to dump a load of coolant into the core to keep from overheating with the first shot.

Stopping on a dime the moment I hit the ground is also one of the major things that's keeping me from enjoying Jump Jets in combat very much. Even if I dump coolant to counter the massive heat buildup, it still leaves me dead in the water for a few seconds until I get the fatty moving again, leaving me as a huge target.