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Offline VictorMorson

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Clan misconceptions and the people they attract
« on: January 17, 2011, 04:18:24 PM »
One thing I've noticed from reading any BattleTech forum for the past few years is that, for one, people have a lot of misconceptions about the Clans, and two, it has attracted what I'd consider to be a "bad crowd" to flock to them on a number of levels - something I find unfortunate for Clan-preferring players who don't fall into that category (of which there are many).  It seems like many people take their own ideals and concepts ranging anywhere from anime space samurai to nazi rhetoric and try and apply that view onto the Clans.  Hell in the last week I've seen everything but the hilariously bad throwing around of the word of "honor" to the veiled suggestion that someone on this very forum wishes the clans were real so we could kill all morbidly obese people.  I've noticed there's very, very few (by comparison) people who prefer Inner Sphere who tend to steadily push their in-universe faction politics onto forum discussions about the game, or anything else.  In short, I'm hoping anyone who might be entirely unwittingly giving Clan players a bad name might at least listen to a few points here.

I'm going to address a couple of the really common issues here.

Zellbrigen and it's purpose - This is the number one issue, and the source of all the people who attack things like legging on a "THAT WAS DISHONORABLE!" level rather than, while I'd argue it, gameplay level.  You have to understand a few things about Zellbrigen:  It was created to preserve equipment, so it would be salvageable after the fight.  If facing an enemy unwilling to do this, the Clans will have no problem at all about calling it off, either.  What's this mean?  Under Zell, legging a mech and disabling it would preserve the majority of the chassis and would, in fact, be a very honorable kill.  Likewise, it'd also spare the pilot's life so they could make a good bondsman - another issue people forget about.  So from an RP standpoint, legging = dishonor has absoultely zero basis in the canon.

The clans are all about Warrriors and nothing else, they were all born in test tubes! - Another totally inaccurate assessment.  It's true that some castes were in fact engineered for that purpose, but there's two major points everyone seems to miss:  There's a large amount of Clan MechWarriors who were either freeborn or not born to that caste (though treated as second rate), and a huge and thriving civilian population that are not among the warrior elite, and may support the military, but are not military.  This includes many washed out (the majority of engineered pilots wash out) MechWarriors, who once out of the "warrior world" often find they don't, in the end, miss it.  Their civilian population views things like freeborns much more kindly, as many are.  They have artists, musicians, merchants - everything you'd find in the InnerSphere.  This also means there's a huge range of people living on Clan worlds that are just as imperfect and varied as IS worlds.

The Clan sense of honor is not like our sense of honor.  They are not Samurai. - The Clans have a lot of rituals that are based in their honor code, like the Batchall and the graduation by fighting.  But anything that we would deem cheating, sneaky, or exploitative is viewed as savvy, pretty often, in Clan canon.  Things like technically lying as much as possible during negotiations, ganking your own teammates to graduate with a higher rank and so forth are not considered wrong by the Clans.  In the case of the latter, it was viewed as a stroke of tactical genius to gun your graduating class down in the back.  That was not, I repeat not, a villain.  On top of that, you can outright murder dozens of people and if you can prove your tactical worth, you can get off for it.  There's a reason the Clans and Draconis Combine thought they had the "honor" thing in common at first and quickly found out that they really didn't.  It's a highly alien concept.

.. in short?  Please, if you really plan on throwing around "Clan this, clan that, clan honor!" in any kind of quasi-RP sense, read their horribly messed up political history and any fiction written before Btech writing took a horrendous nosedive (Everything after the civil war starts, IS or Clan, is painfully out of character with everything before).  Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's somehow unfitting with canon.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 04:23:46 PM by VictorMorson »
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Offline Leeko

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Re: Clan misconceptions and the people they attract
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2011, 04:35:07 PM »
legging = dishonor has absoultely zero basis in the canon

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Offline ~SJ~ Wolf

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Re: Clan misconceptions and the people they attract
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2011, 04:41:14 PM »
Saying it here too

This legging crap is:

100% trumped up by players of the FPS games. Legging was not found in BTU novels (Or did I miss a passage where Aidan Pryde legged 12 Atlases, or Jaime Wolf legged half a dozen Combine mechs? oh right I didn't because it didn't fapping happen), or much at all in CBT. It's a bullshit cheap tactic that takes advantage of the FPS system. Bending what you assume is correct based on fictional people that don't actually exists is sort of well. Bullshit.

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Re: Clan misconceptions and the people they attract
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2011, 04:59:34 PM »
Saying it here too

This legging crap is:

100% trumped up by players of the FPS games. Legging was not found in BTU novels (Or did I miss a passage where Aidan Pryde legged 12 Atlases, or Jaime Wolf legged half a dozen Combine mechs? oh right I didn't because it didn't fapping happen), or much at all in CBT. It's a bullshit cheap tactic that takes advantage of the FPS system. Bending what you assume is correct based on fictional people that don't actually exists is sort of well. Bullshit.

+1 to Wolf for yet another example of how to put down the wrong side of the argument.

Overall I don't really understand the point of this topic, is it a dig at us 'clanners' for associating ourselves with a fictional society and the problems associated with that? I don't think most need a lesson in the clans who are in them because they either:

A) don't give a crap about the RP side of things and are just part of a clan unit to play with friends.

or

B) already know enough about the topic to enjoy it for what it's worth, rub it in the faces of their opposition, and have a laugh with what little roleplay they can get out of it.


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Offline CHHš Rampage

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Re: Clan misconceptions and the people they attract
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2011, 05:00:00 PM »
One thing I've noticed from reading any BattleTech forum for the past few years is that, for one, people have a lot of misconceptions about the Clans, and two, it has attracted what I'd consider to be a "bad crowd" to flock to them on a number of levels - something I find unfortunate for Clan-preferring players who don't fall into that category (of which there are many).  It seems like many people take their own ideals and concepts ranging anywhere from anime space samurai to nazi rhetoric and try and apply that view onto the Clans.  Hell in the last week I've seen everything but the hilariously bad throwing around of the word of "honor" to the veiled suggestion that someone on this very forum wishes the clans were real so we could kill all morbidly obese people.  I've noticed there's very, very few (by comparison) people who prefer Inner Sphere who tend to steadily push their in-universe faction politics onto forum discussions about the game, or anything else.  In short, I'm hoping anyone who might be entirely unwittingly giving Clan players a bad name might at least listen to a few points here.

I'm going to address a couple of the really common issues here.

Zellbrigen and it's purpose - This is the number one issue, and the source of all the people who attack things like legging on a "THAT WAS DISHONORABLE!" level rather than, while I'd argue it, gameplay level.  You have to understand a few things about Zellbrigen:  It was created to preserve equipment, so it would be salvageable after the fight.  If facing an enemy unwilling to do this, the Clans will have no problem at all about calling it off, either.  What's this mean?  Under Zell, legging a mech and disabling it would preserve the majority of the chassis and would, in fact, be a very honorable kill.  Likewise, it'd also spare the pilot's life so they could make a good bondsman - another issue people forget about.  So from an RP standpoint, legging = dishonor has absoultely zero basis in the canon.

The clans are all about Warrriors and nothing else, they were all born in test tubes! - Another totally inaccurate assessment.  It's true that some castes were in fact engineered for that purpose, but there's two major points everyone seems to miss:  There's a large amount of Clan MechWarriors who were either freeborn or not born to that caste (though treated as second rate), and a huge and thriving civilian population that are not among the warrior elite, and may support the military, but are not military.  This includes many washed out (the majority of engineered pilots wash out) MechWarriors, who once out of the "warrior world" often find they don't, in the end, miss it.  Their civilian population views things like freeborns much more kindly, as many are.  They have artists, musicians, merchants - everything you'd find in the InnerSphere.  This also means there's a huge range of people living on Clan worlds that are just as imperfect and varied as IS worlds.

The Clan sense of honor is not like our sense of honor.  They are not Samurai. - The Clans have a lot of rituals that are based in their honor code, like the Batchall and the graduation by fighting.  But anything that we would deem cheating, sneaky, or exploitative is viewed as savvy, pretty often, in Clan canon.  Things like technically lying as much as possible during negotiations, ganking your own teammates to graduate with a higher rank and so forth are not considered wrong by the Clans.  In the case of the latter, it was viewed as a stroke of tactical genius to gun your graduating class down in the back.  That was not, I repeat not, a villain.  On top of that, you can outright murder dozens of people and if you can prove your tactical worth, you can get off for it.  There's a reason the Clans and Draconis Combine thought they had the "honor" thing in common at first and quickly found out that they really didn't.  It's a highly alien concept.

.. in short?  Please, if you really plan on throwing around "Clan this, clan that, clan honor!" in any kind of quasi-RP sense, read their horribly messed up political history and any fiction written before Btech writing took a horrendous nosedive (Everything after the civil war starts, IS or Clan, is painfully out of character with everything before).  Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's somehow unfitting with canon.


I do not disagree with any of your points here. Zellbrigen WAS a way to preserve equipment and lives, as was Batchall. It was a way to take some of the horror out of war. These are established points in CBT fiction.

Protest against legging ARE more game play related than lore related. Many consider it a cheap tactic and a detraction from good play. Legs on mechs are the most vulnerable target and in most cases the easiest to hit. However, during development the armor there has been increased so they are not quite the soft spot they once were. Legging and people protesting it are not a new issue. It has existed with every Mechwarrior computer game. A "No intentional Legging" rule was put into the Legends Arena dueling ladder during the first season not because of BT lore but because it was felt legging would detract from the quality of the duels.

For players of Mechwarrior based video games this will always be an area of disagreement. And that disagreement is not necessarily established along Clan vs IS lines.
,

Offline MerfMerf

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Re: Clan misconceptions and the people they attract
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2011, 05:03:32 PM »
I think Amarus in particular have pointed out several times that legging in fact would be considered very honourable by the clans. I have made notes of this as well, but somehow that one keeps coming back. Often in a way like"I am no clanner, so I have no trouble with shooting legs. Whatever works". I was beginning to think it was an attempt at marginalising arguments like nothing more then an application of fictional honour. But perhaps such posters simply have missed the times this has been pointed out as not being part of BT lore.

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Offline Taemien

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Re: Clan misconceptions and the people they attract
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2011, 05:04:49 PM »
Saying it here too

This legging crap is:

100% trumped up by players of the FPS games. Legging was not found in BTU novels (Or did I miss a passage where Aidan Pryde legged 12 Atlases, or Jaime Wolf legged half a dozen Combine mechs? oh right I didn't because it didn't fapping happen), or much at all in CBT. It's a bullshit cheap tactic that takes advantage of the FPS system. Bending what you assume is correct based on fictional people that don't actually exists is sort of well. Bullshit.

The clans may not have been recorded to have done it, but Justin Xiang-Allard legged Captain Andrew Redburn's on Bethel with Yen-lo Wang's  AC/20.

The fact remains. Its a valid tactic. It does have a basis in lore since it preserves mechs.

Besides, this kind of response is a good way to get legged alot in game. If your opponent knows you're going to get pissed off by legging you. They'll do it to get an edge. Also the OP wasn't trying to show its legit because of the fiction. He's saying that people claiming its dishonorable because its dishonorable IN the fiction is bullshit.

Quote
So from an RP standpoint, legging = dishonor has absoultely zero basis in the canon.

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Re: Clan misconceptions and the people they attract
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2011, 05:06:29 PM »
I do not disagree with any of your points here. Zellbrigen WAS a way to preserve equipment and lives, as was Batchall. It was a way to take some of the horror out of war. These are established points in CBT fiction.

Protest against legging ARE more game play related than lore related. Many consider it a cheap tactic and a detraction from good play. Legs on mechs are the most vulnerable target and in most cases the easiest to hit. However, during development the armor there has been increased so they are not quite the soft spot they once were. Legging and people protesting it are not a new issue. It has existed with every Mechwarrior computer game. A "No intentional Legging" rule was put into the Legends Arena dueling ladder during the first season not because of BT lore but because it was felt legging would detract from the quality of the duels.

For players of Mechwarrior based video games this will always be an area of disagreement. And that disagreement is not necessarily established along Clan vs IS lines.
In regards to legging, THIS. For the other parts of your post, I believe you are referring to

http://forum.mechlivinglegends.net/index.php/topic,11859.0.html

this little thread right hurr. At the end of the day, we have people from the current time frame trying to view the Clans through their own version of what 'honour' is, and it's pretty clear which version is giving way to the other. While I applaud the refresher course here, was this necessary?

@ Taemien

The Clans DID leg some people.... read Lethal Heritage, they legged some Periphery bandits and Phelan Kell, to get prisoners to interrogate about the state of the IS. This is the only novel mention of deliberate Clan legging I recall though, but it's still there.


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Offline Bill

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Re: Clan misconceptions and the people they attract
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2011, 05:17:01 PM »
I hate to use an image more than once buttt..




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Offline Gremlich

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Re: Clan misconceptions and the people they attract
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2011, 05:17:48 PM »
Having preferred being Clan for as long as I have (CBS since before MW4:Mercs came out) I, too, find pseudo clansmen (read "sociopaths") annoying. They just don't get the philosophy found in BT Canon and belong somewhere else, like playing counter-strike doing saturday night knife fights. They don't get it most likely because they are illiterate or have text/concept processing issues.

The legging is something that most Clansmen in the NBT-leagues decided not to do for various honor reasons and it became Canon for them. This makes it hard for some to accept. Mostly it was about skill and nothing else back then. But, I understand doing anything to win cuz that's the point of the game. I'm lousy at legging, btw.

As for the pseudo-Clansmen, we spot them right out and give them either the heave-ho or education. CBS members, rather any CBS member in the group that I am currently Khan of, seeks to bring out the best during the game and sociopaths resist any such attempts.

We caution new members that we aren't like the other clans or IS teams and to think seriously about joining. We are, on the average, older than most teams and subscribe to a somewhat different compass than most teams populated by much younger players. It isn't always the winning that we seek - we seek great gameplay with players who want to play without having to obliterate the other side. It's become more about CBS philosophy and the people we play against than it is about winning. Winning against an easy team is no fun and your skill does not always gain an improvement. A hard won match is preferable and that's what NBT-Clans sought to have by not legging.

Legging = win. Sure, go right ahead, it is a valid and useful tactic and to be against it really is bullshit. But for most NBT-leagues Clansmen, it is still a cheap shot -- even if they don't say anything about it. They'll try to give as good as they get and still have a good time. One of my guys (Nekhron) gets apeshit whenever he gets legged and no amount of talking will get him to let it go. "Get over it" is not good enough, so we just tell him to leg back and keep checking his Blood pressure. (he's my age, over 50)

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Offline Taemien

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Re: Clan misconceptions and the people they attract
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2011, 05:17:59 PM »
@ Taemien

The Clans DID leg some people.... read Lethal Heritage, they legged some Periphery bandits and Phelan Kell, to get prisoners to interrogate about the state of the IS. This is the only novel mention of deliberate Clan legging I recall though, but it's still there.

Now that I think about it. The Clan Jade Falcons did leg some of the mechs during the Somerset Assault in the Cartoon. But thats debatable how canon that was.

But the fact is, its not dishonorable or anything in the fiction. In fact if you can pull it off intentionally, you're one hell of a pilot. At least in the fiction. But as for the gameplay aspect, there's a 30 page thread buried in here for that, so I'm not going to continue that arguement.

On another note...

I've been doing a bit of research on the clans myself recently. More on the line of what we don't see in the games. Stuff like the OP talked about, their society, attitudes, and what not. Everyone knows what their mechs are about. Their genetics, their castes, ect. But little is known in the way of culture. Especially those clans of the homeworlds like Blood Spirit, Diamond Shark, ect.

Its a shame that people like the OP said will misrepresent the clans. Try to use a bit of RP without doing any sort of research or not even caring to. This doesn't just stop at the Clans though. Mercenaries get it too. "I'm a merc, I can be an asshole and just love money." Somebody never read about Northwind Highlanders, Eradani Light Horse, and some others. And then the Houses of the Innersphere. Too many people pick Davion because they are the 'good guys'. Holy shit people.. read the Warrior Trilogy. Don't go around saying you're a Davion fan because you think Victor is gods gift to BattleTech.

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Re: Clan misconceptions and the people they attract
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2011, 05:19:00 PM »

Protest against legging ARE more game play related than lore related. Many consider it a cheap tactic and a detraction from good play. Legs on mechs are the most vulnerable target and in most cases the easiest to hit. However, during development the armor there has been increased so they are not quite the soft spot they once were. Legging and people protesting it are not a new issue. It has existed with every Mechwarrior computer game. A "No intentional Legging" rule was put into the Legends Arena dueling ladder during the first season not because of BT lore but because it was felt legging would detract from the quality of the duels.

For players of Mechwarrior based video games this will always be an area of disagreement. And that disagreement is not necessarily established along Clan vs IS lines.

This is really what I meant in between my frothing rage at legging.

@Taemien Go ahead and leg me, but the first time you do it, will be the last. I can guarantee that. You and anyone else will find themselves looking it the dirt every spawn and every game until you rage quit.

Offline ~SJ~ Xarg Talasko

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Re: Clan misconceptions and the people they attract
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2011, 05:32:57 PM »
Now that I think about it. The Clan Jade Falcons did leg some of the mechs during the Somerset Assault in the Cartoon. But thats debatable how canon that was.
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Too many people pick Davion because they are the 'good guys'. Holy shit people.. read the Warrior Trilogy. Don't go around saying you're a Davion fan because you think Victor is gods gift to BattleTech.

Point 1, Somerset was mentioned in the novels, but no real detail was put into it, so while it did happen, and Franklin Sakamoto is real (he appears in the Theodore Kurita novel Heir of the Dragon), I'd say quite a bit of freedom was taken in the way the cartoon portrayed that event.

Point 2, No faction in BT is 'the good guys'. They're all dicks. Kurita, Marik, Steiner, Davion, Liao, the Clans, even ComStar... especially ComStar.. all dicks. It just depends which bunch of dicks you like more than the others.


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Re: Clan misconceptions and the people they attract
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2011, 05:38:02 PM »
Honestly, who has been legged (or doing the legging) repeatedly since 3.2? Hardly anyone. Legs have a lot more armor in MWLL than their CBT counterparts or any previous MW game.  Its a decent tactic, but its hardly such an effective tactic that it should be considered cheap. May as well declare that you cant use FBombs or Long Tom.

But you know what I hate? People in assault mechs rofl-stomping newbies, then crying foul when their mech gets legged.

But as the OP said, there are lots of players (from every mechwarrior game) who claim to follow clan honor, but really have no clue how it works. Its not all that different than how most people operate. e.g. Lots of people like to say "I know my rights" but cant name the amendments in the bill or rights, or selectively apply the rules and doctrines of their religion.

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Re: Clan misconceptions and the people they attract
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2011, 05:39:34 PM »
Honestly, who has been legged (or doing the legging) repeatedly since 3.2? Hardly anyone. Legs have a lot more armor in MWLL than their CBT counterparts or any previous MW game.  Its a decent tactic, but its hardly such an effective tactic that it should be considered cheap. May as well declare that you cant use FBombs or Long Tom.

But you know what I hate? People in assault mechs rofl-stomping newbies, then crying foul when their mech gets legged.

But as the OP said, there are lots of players (from every mechwarrior game) who claim to follow clan honor, but really have no clue how it works. Its not all that different than how most people operate. e.g. Lots of people like to say "I know my rights" but cant name the amendments in the bill or rights, or selectively apply the rules and doctrines of their religion.

Perhaps you haven't been playing much? Plenty of people are legging to the exclusion of all else. Would you like player names? Mr. Bubbles, LBX demo are a few of their favorite machines to leg with.