Clan misconceptions and the people they attract

[~SJ~ Xarg Talasko]

Heavy laser Puma (D) early stages.

Just to be clear, I don't consider legging to be dishonourable, I consider it be highly un-fun.

[Kelmola]

Regarding legging, BTU novels do not include legging because at the time the writers were encouraged to write events as they could happen in the tabletop game (or in some cases, did happen and the poor author had to just write the battle report into the narrative of a novel!). As legging in CBT is not as easily done, it is not heavily featured in the books either. However, if one would consider what would happen in "real" world where the BT universe would exist, then the Clans would be very eager indeed to use legging for the reasons mentioned above. Or Succession War era IS factions, for that matter - remember that before the discovery of Helm memory core, before the ramp-up of arms industry following the Clan invasion, the 'Mechs were considered to be almost priceless and components were hard to come by. Regarding its use in MWLL or MW4 or whatever, your mileage may vary.

To continue in the vein of the original post, a good starting point for all things Clan would be the sourcebook The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky.

Regarding the Warrior caste, one must remember that they represent a very small minority in the Clan society (WoK throws a figure of 110 000 out of a population of 1,15 billion (1 150 million) as of 3062), and that truebirthing is only used to create warriors. Only rejects from warrior training in the lower castes are trueborn, all the others (ie. the vast majority) are freeborn.

Most importantly, the Clans are not a single monolithic entity. Even during the war against Inner Sphere they were constantly in conflict up to and including war with each other. Their culture varies wildly from Clan to Clan, especially the attitudes concerning the freeborn and the lower castes. Only some general principles and customs apply to all Clans.

Also, much of Clan culture in addition to zellbrigen is characterized by double standards. Not to mention the fabricated legends they tell as "true" stories (which include bears adopting humans, dead birds talking to their owners in spirit form, people getting visions of the future, etc.).

[[CW]Aresye]

I think the honor system surrounding legging came mostly from MW3.  Back then just losing 1/4th of your leg armor made you fall over.  Then while you were on the ground, another alpha strike typically finished off your leg.  The reasoning behind this, is because most people were on dial-up back then, and had to learn how to lag shoot.  Hitting the opponent's legs made them fall over, and then you could deal a lot of damage without having to lead by 3 mechs.  Thus a lot of units and leagues downright banned the intentional legging of an opponent, or any other means in which a player could deal a lot of damage while the other is at a disadvantage, such as overheating, fallen over, etc.  For those of us who played MW3 on the Zone way back then, you probably remember these.

I still go by the old MW3 honor code.  I don't base it off the clan's ideals, or anything other than MW3, because back then, when you had virtually everybody following the same code of sportsmanship, the games were a LOT of fun.  I can't see today's generation, or future generations accepting something like that.  11 years ago the playerbase was much different.

[=KoS= Eldragon]

I think the honor system surrounding legging came mostly from MW3. 

I think this is it as well. Legging is previous MW games was a legitimate problem.  In MWLL? Not so much.

Perhaps you haven't been playing much? Plenty of people are legging to the exclusion of all else. Would you like player names? Mr. Bubbles, LBX demo are a few of their favorite machines to leg with.

I play almost every night. However due to time zone differences, I don't see Mr. Bubbles much at all (or you for that matter). Name all the names you can, and I will make a mental note of these players. But the fact is I simply don't get legged very often. I think chronic leggers probably are assuming legs are weaker than they are and are wasting time/ammo.

Mechs generally have 3/4 the leg armor as they do CT, so I never bother to aim for the legs. Its simply easier core out the CT, or shoot off the arm first depending on the mech. If legging was exceptionally effective, everyone would do it. Of course an assault mech standing still, with an already badly damaged leg, you bet I'm going to polish that leg off. Its simply good tactics.

Only thing I don't like about being legged is if the person doesn't have the decency to finish off my mech I got a long walk back to base to buy a new ride.

[~SJ~ Xarg Talasko]

Mr Bubbles is the raclas :p. He was naming assets used for legging, not players.

[~SJ~MausGMR]

I think the honor system surrounding legging came mostly from MW3. 

I think this is it as well. Legging is previous MW games was a legitimate problem.  In MWLL? Not so much.

Perhaps you haven't been playing much? Plenty of people are legging to the exclusion of all else. Would you like player names? Mr. Bubbles, LBX demo are a few of their favorite machines to leg with.

I play almost every night. However due to time zone differences, I don't see Mr. Bubbles much at all (or you for that matter). Name all the names you can, and I will make a mental note of these players. But the fact is I simply don't get legged very often. I think chronic leggers probably are assuming legs are weaker than they are and are wasting time/ammo.

Mechs generally have 3/4 the leg armor as they do CT, so I never bother to aim for the legs. Its simply easier core out the CT, or shoot off the arm first depending on the mech. If legging was exceptionally effective, everyone would do it. Of course an assault mech standing still, with an already badly damaged leg, you bet I'm going to polish that leg off. Its simply good tactics.

Only thing I don't like about being legged is if the person doesn't have the decency to finish off my mech I got a long walk back to base to buy a new ride.

The reason we didn't see much legging in 0.32 is because there was an unwritten rule about not doing it, most people had the decency to not bother doing it because it can generally be considered disrespectful to your opponent, and a dull, boring easy way to play the game.

Simple maths show that legging a mech is the easiest and most efficient way to deal with a mech. Most people don't do it because they don't like it being done themselves. Let's go through the basic points as to why legging is the easiest, cheesiest way to kill a mech.

Every mech has a stronger CT than leg armour
Every mech has larger legs than CT armour
Every mech has the ability to easily turn it's damage torso section away from the enemy to reduce damage, this is not as fast, responsive, or easy to do for the legs (turning around takes longer than torso twist)
Every mech, once on the floor, can be rendered ineffective by sensible position of ones own asset (stay of the places it can shoot whilst its on the floor)
Legs are no harder to hit than torso sections (hip joints on moving mechs are still fairly large locations to aim for)

Legging is:

Cheap
Easy
Disrespectful
Simple
A good way to annoy someone
Something a lot of people hate

Legging is not:

Fun
Fair
Challenging
Situation specific
A gameplay element to build a strong community from

And thus I conclude with, legging reduces this game to it's simplest form and as such, is undesirable.

[=KoS= Eldragon]

Mr Bubbles is the raclas :p. He was naming assets used for legging, not players.

Ah. My mistake. There is actually a player called "Mr. Bubbles" that I have seen once in a great while. Or maybe I am just confused. Apologies to him, if he is reading this.

[Taemien]

Protest against legging ARE more game play related than lore related. Many consider it a cheap tactic and a detraction from good play. Legs on mechs are the most vulnerable target and in most cases the easiest to hit. However, during development the armor there has been increased so they are not quite the soft spot they once were. Legging and people protesting it are not a new issue. It has existed with every Mechwarrior computer game. A "No intentional Legging" rule was put into the Legends Arena dueling ladder during the first season not because of BT lore but because it was felt legging would detract from the quality of the duels.

For players of Mechwarrior based video games this will always be an area of disagreement. And that disagreement is not necessarily established along Clan vs IS lines.

This is really what I meant in between my frothing rage at legging.

@Taemien Go ahead and leg me, but the first time you do it, will be the last. I can guarantee that. You and anyone else will find themselves looking it the dirt every spawn and every game until you rage quit.

You are welcome to try.

[dsi1]

Mechs generally have 3/4 the leg armor as they do CT, so I never bother to aim for the legs. Its simply easier core out the CT, or shoot off the arm first depending on the mech. If legging was exceptionally effective, everyone would do it. Of course an assault mech standing still, with an already badly damaged leg, you bet I'm going to polish that leg off. Its simply good tactics.

This x1,000,000 people who intentionally try to leg are just putting themselves in a worse position, but if you're going to walk around in an orange-yellow leg, people are going to exploit that.

@Eldragon: I think there is a player who constantly refers to himself in the third person as Mr. Bubbles, can't remember his name though.

[~SJ~ Riker]

Protest against legging ARE more game play related than lore related. Many consider it a cheap tactic and a detraction from good play. Legs on mechs are the most vulnerable target and in most cases the easiest to hit. However, during development the armor there has been increased so they are not quite the soft spot they once were. Legging and people protesting it are not a new issue. It has existed with every Mechwarrior computer game. A "No intentional Legging" rule was put into the Legends Arena dueling ladder during the first season not because of BT lore but because it was felt legging would detract from the quality of the duels.

For players of Mechwarrior based video games this will always be an area of disagreement. And that disagreement is not necessarily established along Clan vs IS lines.

This is really what I meant in between my frothing rage at legging.

@Taemien Go ahead and leg me, but the first time you do it, will be the last. I can guarantee that. You and anyone else will find themselves looking it the dirt every spawn and every game until you rage quit.

You are welcome to try.

Don't be stupid... Wolf has about 20 peeps that will be helping him...
WE DO HAVE A L.O.S. LIST...   

[~SJ~ Wolf]

Protest against legging ARE more game play related than lore related. Many consider it a cheap tactic and a detraction from good play. Legs on mechs are the most vulnerable target and in most cases the easiest to hit. However, during development the armor there has been increased so they are not quite the soft spot they once were. Legging and people protesting it are not a new issue. It has existed with every Mechwarrior computer game. A "No intentional Legging" rule was put into the Legends Arena dueling ladder during the first season not because of BT lore but because it was felt legging would detract from the quality of the duels.

For players of Mechwarrior based video games this will always be an area of disagreement. And that disagreement is not necessarily established along Clan vs IS lines.

This is really what I meant in between my frothing rage at legging.

@Taemien Go ahead and leg me, but the first time you do it, will be the last. I can guarantee that. You and anyone else will find themselves looking it the dirt every spawn and every game until you rage quit.

You are welcome to try.

I think we know based on past engagements we've had how that will turn out. Also what Riker said.

Mechs generally have 3/4 the leg armor as they do CT, so I never bother to aim for the legs. Its simply easier core out the CT, or shoot off the arm first depending on the mech. If legging was exceptionally effective, everyone would do it. Of course an assault mech standing still, with an already badly damaged leg, you bet I'm going to polish that leg off. Its simply good tactics.

This x1,000,000 people who intentionally try to leg are just putting themselves in a worse position, but if you're going to walk around in an orange-yellow leg, people are going to exploit that.

@Eldragon: I think there is a player who constantly refers to himself in the third person as Mr. Bubbles, can't remember his name though.

I was referring to the mech.

[Flyingdebris]

I've read most of the novels throughout middlechool and highschool, and have collected a massive number of BT books for tabletop that i know i will never use, simply because they are BT.  I know my BT insideout and sideways

But when i go online and play, i leave all that at the door.  If your leg is in the red when i find you, too bad buddy, I'd expect the exact same treatment. and I may be a huge geek who has played quite a bit of RPGs in my time, but it will be a cold day in hell before i try to apply RP rules in a multiplayer shooter in a serious manner,  beyond maybe the occasional shits n giggles.

[Deathbane]

Protest against legging ARE more game play related than lore related. Many consider it a cheap tactic and a detraction from good play. Legs on mechs are the most vulnerable target and in most cases the easiest to hit. However, during development the armor there has been increased so they are not quite the soft spot they once were. Legging and people protesting it are not a new issue. It has existed with every Mechwarrior computer game. A "No intentional Legging" rule was put into the Legends Arena dueling ladder during the first season not because of BT lore but because it was felt legging would detract from the quality of the duels.

For players of Mechwarrior based video games this will always be an area of disagreement. And that disagreement is not necessarily established along Clan vs IS lines.

This is really what I meant in between my frothing rage at legging.

@Taemien Go ahead and leg me, but the first time you do it, will be the last. I can guarantee that. You and anyone else will find themselves looking it the dirt every spawn and every game until you rage quit.

You are welcome to try.

I think we know based on past engagements we've had how that will turn out. Also what Riker said.

Mechs generally have 3/4 the leg armor as they do CT, so I never bother to aim for the legs. Its simply easier core out the CT, or shoot off the arm first depending on the mech. If legging was exceptionally effective, everyone would do it. Of course an assault mech standing still, with an already badly damaged leg, you bet I'm going to polish that leg off. Its simply good tactics.

This x1,000,000 people who intentionally try to leg are just putting themselves in a worse position, but if you're going to walk around in an orange-yellow leg, people are going to exploit that.

@Eldragon: I think there is a player who constantly refers to himself in the third person as Mr. Bubbles, can't remember his name though.

I was referring to the mech.

Go @ him bro.

Seriously though, mechs are bipedal. They were ALWAYS going to be vunerable to be being shot in the legs. This would hold in canon as well as in the games.

I understand why legging is seen as unfun, but im afraid they re valid targets. In combat, zell or otherwise, i will simply target the most vunerable area with the most damage concentrated whether its the leg, arms or torso section. If this results in you eating dirt, then so be it, this is Mechwarrior, not MechQQQQ.

Ill always leg lights as a matter of preference. You will pay for the capabilities your machine can bring to the field.

This only becomes a problem when several people get together and all decide to go for the legs of the same target.

[~SJ~ Xarg Talasko]

Protest against legging ARE more game play related than lore related. Many consider it a cheap tactic and a detraction from good play. Legs on mechs are the most vulnerable target and in most cases the easiest to hit. However, during development the armor there has been increased so they are not quite the soft spot they once were. Legging and people protesting it are not a new issue. It has existed with every Mechwarrior computer game. A "No intentional Legging" rule was put into the Legends Arena dueling ladder during the first season not because of BT lore but because it was felt legging would detract from the quality of the duels.

For players of Mechwarrior based video games this will always be an area of disagreement. And that disagreement is not necessarily established along Clan vs IS lines.

This is really what I meant in between my frothing rage at legging.

@Taemien Go ahead and leg me, but the first time you do it, will be the last. I can guarantee that. You and anyone else will find themselves looking it the dirt every spawn and every game until you rage quit.

You are welcome to try.

Don't be stupid... Wolf has about 20 peeps that will be helping him...
WE DO HAVE A L.O.S. LIST...   

Easy buddy, we're still waiting for the conclusion of the Tankero business.

[CGB [CoffiNail]]

I agree with what Flyingdebris said about in game.  Also depending on the status of my mech, your mech and out loadouts I have found the occasional time to leg even a green mech.

I do not remember what mech I was using, Adder or Kit Fox vs Deity in a Mad Dog.  I had already been through a slug fest and was not in  horrible shape, but I knew I could not take out a Mad Dog, so i aimed low and poped his knee.  Now Deity did not like that... He vowed to remember the event, as have I as I found it in good fun.  I have had my leg blown off, sure it sucks, but then you get to try and pop off as many shots before the other mech comes to smush you into the dirt.  Hell ONE time in maybe August I got legged and then legged the guy who legged me as he approached. Was good fun!

As for the whole honor aspect.  I have been one to toss into the in game chat fire about the clans not having much issue in legging as it allows the mech to be salvaged, less waste and as someone stated allows the loss of life... which is one aspect the Clans are VERY good at... See that bad control panel? Well it still has some LEDs and circuitry, let us take it apart and use the LEDs for replacement parts and the circuitry has uses elsewhere.

This is not to say the Clanners go around taking cheap shots and ONLY legging... that is wrong... But the occasional tactically sound legging, sure.

Now from Way of the Clans novel...


A BEAUTIFUL HURTING MACHINE."
"If you think kill, you will kill."
"IF WE THINK KILL, WE WILL KILL."
"If you have a boot, you crush your enemy."
"IF WE HAVE A BOOT, WE CRUSH OUR ENEMY."
"If you have a hand, you strangle your enemy."
"IF WE HAVE A HAND, WE STRANGLE OUR ENEMY."
"If you have a club, you bludgeon your attacker."
"IF WE HAVE A CLUB, WE BLUDGEON THE ATTACKER."
"If you have a knife, you stab your foe."
"IF WE HAVE A KNIFE, WE STAB OUR FOE."
"If you have a gun, you shoot it."
"IF WE HAVE A GUN, WE SHOOT IT."
"If you have a tank, you roll it over the opposing ranks"
"IF WE HAVE A TANK, WE ROLL IT OVER THE OPPOSING RANKS."
"If you have an aerofighter, you bomb them."
"IF WE HAVE AN AEROFIGHTER, WE BOMB THEM."
"If you have a 'Mech, you win."
"IF WE HAVE A 'MECH, WE WIN."
"You are always the victor."
"WE ARE ALWAYS THE VICTOR."
"When the blood is spilled, the bloodname is earned."
"WHEN THE BLOOD IS SPILLED, THE BLOOD-NAME IS EARNED."
"We are the Clan."
"WE ARE THE CLAN."