Tank balance

[sleepysheep]

It's well known that tanks in 4.x is a little bit off. Raising the prices of most of the tanks slightly would be an easy fix, but I think that’s just not the right thing to do in all cases. So here is my suggestions.

Going to start with the early tanks. The hovercrafts weaponry are all pretty good, their speed is good their price is good, but steering them I find to be a real pain in the arse. I'm sure this will get fixed. The biggest problem with them is how they don't want to hover over water and just sit under the water moving very slowly. Really sucks, hopefully that will get fixed soon Tm.

And now the Partisan, the real game breaker at the moment in early game. This tank rapes everything early game and even mid game, EXCEPT it doesn’t rape the things it's meant to, stuff that flies. Now the problem is twofold, the fact an 80ton tank is available at the beginning, and the fact it has to be available because otherwise VTOL would be the hand of God.

After trying to use it to kill VTOLs I found it was pretty hard to use to kill stuff, AC5 just fires so slowly, downgrading to AC2, adding another 2 (or add whatever is possible tonnage wise) instead of the AC5, increases it range, (stops VTOL staying out of range) and the faster firing rate makes them far easier to use.

The only reason this isn't done is because then it would rape even harder on the ground, and here is the problem most people don't relies. Partisan is 80ton tank, it should NOT be available at start game, in fact a medium tank around 50tons or so should be available. A tank with 2xAtm9 with reasonable armour and speed would be enough to take down VTOL easily for the clan, while the IS with X Pulse lasers on a medium tank would work fine without the ground rape. Maybe this is already in the works I hope so.

Now with a medium AA tank taking the partisan  role at start of game, the partain can get its AC2 back, and be priced fitting an 80ton tank. The huit needs to be priced a bit more than the partisan (because it's clan) with similar load out but clan weapons.

Oro always feels like it needs some love. Maybe it's just the lack of armour compared to the other tanks or the mix weaponry that makes it feel weaker. But the fact is the oro is probably one of the best balanced tanks at the moment.

Which leads onto the demo and Morrigu. They both rape hard. They should, but when you can walk into 4 medium mechs and just sit there shrugging off the damage and then walk away before you die, you truly realise how much armour these things have. There is only one reason not to take either of these tanks and that’s speed and manoeuvrability. Otherwise you would be crazy to take a mech with 1/3 less armour and survivability when it comes to defending a base.

But instead of using the nerf stick on the tanks (Maybe their armour and more importantly heat sinks need to be looked at) there is a far easier way to nerf these tanks without even touching the tanks. Do not let the mech bays build 80+ ton tanks when they CANNOT make 80ton+ mechs. It beggars belief why the biggest mech they can make is a medium, but it's perfectly fine in making assault like tanks! It's no wonder everyone is rolling around in tanks with a choice of a medium mech or a tank with twice the armour and fire power! With the need to actually have to use a proper mechbay like mechs to make the bigger heavier units, you suddenly give the tanks a disadvantage that hasn't effected them in 4.x. the speed and manoeuvrability to get to bases to defend.

I'm perfectly happy with them being the best defence units as long as they had to spend time to get there, just like any other heavy and assault in the game. Once again the lack of medium tanks might be why this hasn't been changed, and shows how important they are needed.


So in summary:

Hovercraft need their handling and bugs fixed
Game needs medium tanks badly for IS and clan
Clan need ATM9 medium tank
IS need X-pulse medium tank
Partisan needs to be given AC2 and price increase to fit it's 80ton spec
Huit needs to be comparable to the partisan in AA with clan weapons and slight higher price
Oro needs to be left alone
Demo may need armour be adjusted tiny bit
Morrigu needs it's heat sinks looked into, Heavy large laser rape isn't fun.
Do not let heavy and assault tanks spawn at smaller mech bays with medium mech limits.

I know these things take time, but if they was to eventually happen would make the game far more enjoyable than the tank > everything but fire bombs, which TC is now.


*Edit* Fixed all my fail spelling of the word Partisan.

[Spooky]

but steering them I find to be a real pain in the arse. I'm sure this will get fixed.

It's a hovercraft. What exactly do you want to get fixed? Make it move like a regular tank?

[~SJ~ Wolf]

I find that it makes perfect sense that a 70kish asset completely outclasses assets costing 120k and more. Really makes perfect sense to me.

[sleepysheep]

but steering them I find to be a real pain in the arse. I'm sure this will get fixed.

It's a hovercraft. What exactly do you want to get fixed? Make it move like a regular tank?

It doesn't hover, thats the problem. Try using one. In marshes I spend the entire time under water when using a hovercraft if i so much touch water down I go. On land they are perfectly fine, except for the helish controls. But on water, make them actually stay above water all the time.

[Spooky]

but steering them I find to be a real pain in the arse. I'm sure this will get fixed.

It's a hovercraft. What exactly do you want to get fixed? Make it move like a regular tank?

It doesn't hover, thats the problem. Try using one. In marshes I spend the entire time under water when using a hovercraft if i so much touch water down I go. On land they are perfectly fine, except for the helish controls. But on water, make them actually stay above water all the time.

I know, I meant what do you want changed regarding the controls. Of course the hovercraft should obviously hover on the water and not "dive" through it .

[Rally]

I'm pretty sure the Morrigu is an assault class tank so it should be able to have enough heatsinks to support 3 HLL.

[ARES]

I agree with the Partisan. It rapes everything in its price category on the ground. For a AA and firesupport Tank its way to effective against ground targets.

The questions is, does the Partisan really need that much armor to get the job done ?

[7.[WD]Ragor]

(...)
The questions is, does the Partisan really need that much armor to get the job done ?

I drive he Partisan a lot... and I agree. Change armor to free tons.
And/or an armor destribution: hard armored turret but underarmored body.

(And when we get mechlab someday I will have my 4xUAC5 (RAC5?!) partisan...)

Edit: The more I think about it: I would get an 4xUAC2 Partisan for AA duty. Great range and accuracy.

[sleepysheep]

but steering them I find to be a real pain in the arse. I'm sure this will get fixed.

It's a hovercraft. What exactly do you want to get fixed? Make it move like a regular tank?

It doesn't hover, thats the problem. Try using one. In marshes I spend the entire time under water when using a hovercraft if i so much touch water down I go. On land they are perfectly fine, except for the helish controls. But on water, make them actually stay above water all the time.

I know, I meant what do you want changed regarding the controls. Of course the hovercraft should obviously hover on the water and not "dive" through it .

For me it seems the controls are all or nothing, either you going left full blast or not at all, it just seems very unresponsive. I sometimes have trouble driving them out of the hanger base, I just bounce backwards and forwards hitting stuff

Morrigu with 3 heavy lasers is worse than a novacat. You just spam away, don't care about heat at all, until everything is neatly sliced and diced into tiny metal peices. Morrigu does have alot of disadvtanages (poor sight, slow moving turret etc) but if something gets infront of it, it non stop fires till they die, zero skill.

I already suggested a better way to fix the partisan  is just to replace its role with a medium tank, thus allowing it to stay mostly as it is with a higher cost. It is a 80ton tank, it is MEANT to have alot of armour. But it's silly being able to get a tank this heavy at the start of the game.

[=KoS= Eldragon]

Do not let the mech bays build 80+ ton tanks when they CANNOT make 80ton+ mechs.

I like this idea. I've gotten into the habit of buying something cheap and fast, capping a point that has a mechbay, then building a Demolisher.

Reducing the armor of tanks? Probably a good idea too. Even 10% less all around would go a long way.

Now that we have TC mode, tanks are suddenly really good at something.

[~SJ~ Wolf]

Do not let the mech bays build 80+ ton tanks when they CANNOT make 80ton+ mechs.

I like this idea. I've gotten into the habit of buying something cheap and fast, capping a point that has a mechbay, then building a Demolisher.

Reducing the armor of tanks? Probably a good idea too. Even 10% less all around would go a long way.

Now that we have TC mode, tanks are suddenly really good at something.

Too good.

derp derp I'm a demo derp derp I only cost a bit over 70k, derp derp, oh hello mr mad cat b that cost 130k and took 3/4 game to get. BANG derp derp derp thanks for the cash Mr. Madcat.

[IG142]

A good candidate for that medium tank to replace the early-game partisan: the Bulldog. A cheap battle tank with a very diverse armament for a wide variety of roles.

Loadout arrangement could be along the lines of 1 heavy omni pod mount (main gun) 1-2 small hardpoints (support guns on either side of main) and 2 missile pods. A high turret inclination, if possible, would allow good AA use.

Prime:
   1x LBL  (main gun)
   1x Mgun  (support gun)
   2x SRM4  (missile pods)

Staple battle tank with cheap well-rounded performance. LBL for primary medium range fire, SRMs for high DPS in close-range brawls, and Mgun for BA defense.

A:
   3x AC2  (main gun, support guns. Possibly add more or upgrade to UACs for balance.)
   2x SRM2  (missile pods)

Early game anti-air configuration. Would require the Bulldog to be able to aim upwards a good ways to be very effective, but would solve the range problem regardless. Minor defense against ground units at short range.

B:
   1x LRM20  (main gun)
   1x Mgun  (support gun)
   2x SRM4  (missile pods)

Cheap self-sufficient missile support. Only moderate LRM strength, but capable of defending itself with SRMs and Mgun.


And yes, part of the reason for this post is that I like the Bulldog, but it really does look like it would fit into the gameplay so well.

[DFDelta]

A selfquote, wrote this in an old topic about Myrmidons and Bulldogs.
All the variants are made under the assumption that a Fusion Engine is added, the "laser are bad for tanks" rule ignored, and that some weapons seem to be far lighter in MWLL then in CBT (UACs for example).

Variant A could be changed for something similar to your A by just removing the LRMs. If it would still be to expensive change 2 UAC2s to AC2s, if still to expensive reduce armor by a small amount.

Also note that it is talking about the old ranking/price system.

The Bulldog is 60 tons, just like the Oro, so why not turn it into the IS counterpart of the Oro?

If we give it a fusion engine and ignore vehicle construction rules (I think they are ignored anyways, building something like the Huits B and C should be impossible otherwise (especially the B)), we could turn it into a good tank for the 70 -90k price range while staying true to the general design of the normal variants.
It has about the same armor levels as the Oro, (6.5 standard Bulldog / 5.5 Ferro-Fibrus Oro), the same speed, and a similar role.

Variant Prime:
2x Large beam laser (or maybe pulse lasers?)
2x DualSRM4
LAMS, Eoptics

Variant A:
4x UAC2
2x LRM15
BAP, GECM, EOptics

Variant B:
1x AC20
1x MRM10
1x SSRM4
GECM

Variant C:
MRM30 (or 40?)
2x DualSRM4


Whats the deal behind this idea?
Simple. The Oro is designed around one huge weapon (Gauss or large AC) backed up by a large and several smaller energy weapons.
The Bulldog would be designed around an array of "main weapons" or a huge weapon backed up by an array of small missile launchers.
Both tanks would be good close - medium range fighters, but both would be taking different approaches to that goal. (Bulldog A and Oro A are both exceptions, focused around long range sniper weapons)

[IG142]

I'm not really emphasizing the exact loadout, just what it would be like in general: a cheap multipurpose tank, emphasis on cheap. The Bulldog could quite possibly hold a heavier loadout in MWLL than CBT, but at the expense of... well, expense.

I agree with your Bulldog/Oro comparison, but I think the Bulldog could and should be significantly cheaper. The Oro is currently priced mostly around PCM/SCM, which puts it into the middle-game timeframe. I was thinking the Bulldog would be at least one rank lower, available to PVTs or easily reached through banking (5k or so, depending on variant). At the start of almost every game I find myself wishing for a solid low-price fighter, as right now all of the starter assets are really only suitable for capturing bases rather than holding them. Imagine a column of Bulldogs rolling out of the starting gate to reinforce bases captured by the initial wave of light assets...

A cheaper Bulldog would also fill the game-start AA niche, if the Partisan gets a price hike to reflect its assault weight. This does assume a good turret angle, though, as otherwise the Bulldog can only fire on distant aircraft and is helpless against direct aerial attack. Hopefully its turret can be more flexible than the Oro's in this regard.

Myrmidons are good too, but they fill a different and I think less needed role than the Bulldog. Bulldogs are more of the general purpose main battle tank, while Myrmidons are fast attack tanks. Actually, the Myrmidon might be a good semi-counterpart to the Epona... still slower, but with similar roles (remember the 120kph Oro from 0.1? Fun times...). Overall though, I think the Bulldog would be a better addition given limited resources.

[Taemien]

I'm pretty sure the Morrigu is an assault class tank so it should be able to have enough heatsinks to support 3 HLL.

It does have enough.

100 DHS will not help if you alpha 3 HLL. Thats still a heatspike from hell. Heatsinks dissipate heat, they don't prevent it.

Either try chainfiring or use coolant flush while firing. HLL don't generate all their heat at once, its overtime. You can lightly tap C while alpha striking the Scalpel. You'll not go above 300C and use hardly any coolant. This might be borderline exploit though. I'm not 100% this is intended.

As for Hovercraft, they are supposed to float over water. The fact that they don't in some cases is a bug and is being worked on afaik.