Does Osiris A really profit from MASC?

[[IPA] Thalamus]

Hey Mechwarriors,


I recently thought that the Osiris A (2 ERLBL) does not profit from its MASC.


Why? Because it's Heat Management. MASC, Jump Jets and and the Lasers all produce an ungodly amount of heat that the mech can hardly handled if used together. In longe range combat, MASC is useless; you'd rather jumpsnipe. When engaging in short range, MASC might be valuable to perform hit-and-run attacks - but that's too much heat (and besides: why do hit-and-run brawls with 2 ERLBL?). And if you try to engage in a brawling session with MASC, you have to handle not only the heat but it gets difficult to hit with the lasers.

So I concluded that there is no actual benefit from havind MASC on this asset.



I checked on sarna and saw that the MASC would originally take about 2t; I don't know how that translates to MWLL but a couple of machine guns or heat sinks (or even GECM) would fit easily.

- You could use the mguns to fight BAs more easily (making the asset more useful against BA in close encounters; like when fighting for control points).
- You could  take  2 additional  heat sinks to prolong Osiris' firing time significantly.
- You could give him GECM to make it a bit less exposed on the battlefield, improving its usefulness in mid-range




What do you think?

[[IPA] Bravo Cadett]

remove jumpjets add head sinks and gecm ^^

[(TLL)CapperDeluxe]

just because its there doesn't mean you're expected to use it all the time, but I bet its certainly nice to have it when you need it.  This is especially so in the Osiris because its armor is so weak that if you need to make a quick getaway you can hit the MASC and use coolant to make your getaway.  There's been at least a few times where I've used the PPC version which doesn't have MASC and couldn't get away in time

Now look at other MASC units, like the Puma variants with lasers. Those things are beasts but also run very hot, I would similarly not want to strip away their MASC just because they run hot in combat.

remove jumpjets add head sinks and gecm ^^

and remove the lasers, then add more armor, lower the speed, and voila you have a Bushwacker. Oh wait.

[IG142]

The Osiris A's MASC does have several purposes:

• Short bursts when sniping to mess up aim or get in to/out of cover quickly. Small taps don't build up much heat.
• Dodging missiles. Not always necessary, but MASC still helps when you have LRMs incoming, especially if don't have time to throttle up.
• Tactical Bug-out Maneuver (TBoM). If something big or fast has spotted you and is coming your way, don't bother firing back and just run. If you gain distance then you can slow down and start shooting, otherwise keep going till you reach safety.

GECM might be useful, but without any missiles the Osiris A will usually be passive anyway.

[xInVicTuSx]

You indeed bring up a good point and something I have thought of and argued about before.

When it comes down to it, when is it ok to remove things that are situational in favor of things that further specialize one particular goal.

At what point are we "Minmaxing"? At what point are we watering it all down so that, as Capper said, oh wait, we have a bushwacker?

Sorry to be so abstract but, it is just these questions that will make the difference between a good and bad mechlab, which is the end goal i assume.

I doubt the guys in charge of variants have a big willingness to minmax their configs themselves.   

[[IPA] Thalamus]

My point wasn't to specialize the mech further -- contrary, I believe replacing MASC with (for example) machine guns would give it more flexibility and useful in much more situations.

Imagine you want to engage an elemantal in close combat with the current variant. If your lasers miss you'll have to wait long for them to recharge; your heat will quickly rise up. MASC isn't an option as well as you are barely able to outmaneuver the BA (altough you could run away from it, yes, but that's not the point). Mguns on the other hand would quickly solve the problem. And considering the low armor of this mech, BAs are a relevant problem.



I see that MASC actually has some advantages -- but I'm convinced the disadvantages outweigh them in most situations in this particular configuration.

[SquareSphere }12thVR{]

hmmm... I do agree that this variant needs to be used as a sniper and that if does get in a brawl there's very little that it can do to survive.  MASC to dodge just pumps up the heat that makes shooting very risky as the heat might force a shut down.

in all honestly I'd drop the Masc for more armor   ECM would be nice but wouldn't a huge difference if they were caught in a brawl.

[sleet01]

Just because you don't use the MASC, or only use the jump jets when you pop-tart to get good sniping shots, doesn't mean everyone else does things that way.  The MASC lets you get into position quickly, take bases quickly, scout quickly, and escape quickly - all bonuses to a lightly-armored mech with horrendously long weapon reload times.  Likewise the JJs do more than let you pop-tart: they let you get into better sniping positions, or traverse rough terrain in order to flank enemies, or dodge ASF attacks, or outmaneuver an enemy in close quarters.  The MASC adds to the Osiris' flexibility as a fast and maneuverable long-range light mech.

[[IPA] Bravo Cadett]

yeah thats why every1 wanne get there fingers on the mechlab ... i hate masc, cause it makes more heat than i have use of the extra speed. i would rip it out of every confic... like jumpjets, i just dont use them. i more like to yous the nice E-Warfare Stuff BHP/GECM/Enhanced Optics ... see but not be seen ... thats my way of play

what do you mean wieht minmax confics ? is it about min speed max firepower or min fire power and max speed (so max on stat and min all others ?)

[Cik]

it probably doesn't make sense. however half the loadouts really don't. look at heavy mechs: maybe 4-5 configs are actually any good, the rest of them make no sense. close range and long range gear on the same platform, etc. dunno if this is on purpose, but they should probably be juggled a bit.

start with the mech's purpose (frontline brawler, laser-based sniper, laser-based close range, missile-sniper etc.)

then arm and equip from there.

[(TLL)CapperDeluxe]

close range and long range gear on the same platform, etc. dunno if this is on purpose, but they should probably be juggled a bit.

this is actually how pretty much most of the CBT loadouts are, the idea being that "boating" limits your usefulness on an ever changing battlefield.  Of course in no way do I want to steer this conversation to how CBT compares to real time combat! *ducks*

[Cik]

close range and long range gear on the same platform, etc. dunno if this is on purpose, but they should probably be juggled a bit.

this is actually how pretty much all CBT loadouts are, the idea being that "boating" limits your usefulness on an ever changing battlefield

never played tabletop, but at least for MWLL i think something could be said for specialization. 2 ERLBL novacats are much better at dedicated sniping than 4-5 mix-ranged thanatos. whereas a dedicated brawling platform like the loki C or E is a monster of close ranged base combat.

(edit: assuming there isn't a pile of demolishers in the base, then you instadie)

[IG142]

it probably doesn't make sense. however half the loadouts really don't. look at heavy mechs: maybe 4-5 configs are actually any good, the rest of them make no sense. close range and long range gear on the same platform, etc. dunno if this is on purpose, but they should probably be juggled a bit.

start with the mech's purpose (frontline brawler, laser-based sniper, laser-based close range, missile-sniper etc.)

then arm and equip from there.

Which leaves us without any generalized mechs. Now, a lot of people like specialized designs, and they are often more effective, but personally I find general-purpose mechs - which almost all happen to be Primes - much more satisfying to pilot. How exciting is it to click 'fire' over and over with a single weapon system?

Try a diverse Prime, sometime. An Osiris, Uziel, Shadowcat, Vulture, Warhammer, Atlas, Madcat - I could go on. They're harder to use, but much more fun (in my opinion, at least).


Of course, variants do have to be different to have any specific purpose, so some degree of specialization is natural. The Osiris with 2x ERLBL is specialist, but I can live with it - it serves a defined role as fast sniper that would otherwise go unfilled, and doesn't have enough tonnage for other armament without compromising its main purpose.

What bugs me more is the 2x PPC Osiris C. It's too close to the A, with twin heavy energy weapons. I'd prefer to see one of those PPCs replaced with an AC5 or something. Now there's some diversity!

[SquareSphere }12thVR{]

I think i post this once every 3 months or so. The reason Battlemech were generally of mix armaments was cause battles took weeks to months. Within that time frame they would take on vastly different types of missions.  Since these were Battlemechs and not Omnimechs, one couldn't easily just pick configs that suited the job.

in the MW online gaming verse it's never been really simulated in a way that made sense.

Also, when the clans came, we started to see more boat configs with some default "well rounded" primes as off the factory configs.  These battles tended to be with hundreds of mechs so having more generalist to fill in the inevitable gaps made sense especially if mech bays and field support was in short supply.

[Leeko]

In my Professional Opinion^TM, MASC and JJs both produce way too much heat for their usefulness at the moment.