Missing 'mech niches

[VictorMorson]

I wanted to play the current beta for a while before posting about this; basically, as it stands right now, there really feels like a sort of "dead zone" of missing mech niches in the game.  I'm trying to avoid this thread from turning into a "post your favorite mech chassis" and even about chassis in general as a rule, with one exception (as I'll say before) but more for a hope that in the next beta, some variants might be added or moved.

Really, I got talking about this while looking at the next planned mech additions; some just seem to be redundant such as the Commando (as much as I like Commandos, the Owens can fill every single role the Commando could in terms of performance and loadout), while others feel like a really missing section - such as LRM-heavy mediums (Hellspawn, Trebuchet, Apollo, etc) or Medium-Heavy laser heavy designs for the IS (Black Knight, Crab, Lancelot).  As far as faction-specific tech I do have to admit, at the moment only the Bushwhacker feels like a "proper medium" for the IS, with the Uziel's light armor making it a hit & run mech and the Hollander being far too gimmicky in origin, with it's easily blown off gun to make me drive it and I'm a bit concerned that once the new Clan mediums are added the gap is going to get even worse.

Please keep in mind before you reply this isn't a thread to suggest those chassis are added to the game (I realize that is a huge undertaking!) but rather as justification to consider adding variants to make up for the missing areas.  As it stands, you're not likely to find more than one Large Pulse Laser before you hit assaults, or a mech with nearly as many LRMs as an early-game tank in the mid-game and it tends to cripple your choices, in particular if you look at it on a per-faction basis.  I would very much be satisfied with, while outside of perhaps the original spirit of the designs, a arm-laser heavy Hollander or a missile loaded Uziel!

The main reason I'm posting this is, in the mid-game when graduating from Lights to Heavies, I really hit a "dead zone."  During this time I either end up staying in a light, or purchasing a specialized tank, with no real front-line mech options available to my play style and that really hurts that part of the game for me - and I'm sure I'm not entirely alone on this.  Again, I'd be entirely happy to see variants to fill in these gaps since it'll be a while before even the planned chassis are added.  In particular, any variant with weapon groups scattered over different ranges and travel times could definitely stand to be replaced as I cannot imagine they get taken very much, and are simply not as effective as other available options in the environment of LL where simplicity in weapon group firing is a huge advantage.

[Profane Arbiter]

No, you're right...light or specializaed tank, that's all I use now too. Mechs can't stand up to the tanks in a brawl so either I'm using a light mech as a nimble runner to pick up control points, a light mech missile boat, or a tank slugger in mid game (and tanks aren't particularly fun to play since they handle like crap, but they are effective).

Even the Puma D that everyone loves, a light mech slugger...while it hits hard...it just isn't resilient enough to win a fight against tank sluggers at the same pricepoint.

I know you didn't start this thread as a "tank wars sucks" thread, but that really is a big part of the issue. I experienced "dead zones" last patch, but I don't think that issues exists nearly as much in .4...in this patch the issue is more about being corraled into certain obvious and logical asset selections...unless you don't mind strolling into combat with something other than an optimal asset.

Another part of the problem is this new philosophy regarding the use of heavier assets until much later in the game , (and for many players not at all) with the .4 rank and money scaling. I look at some of these players who are consistently at the bottom of the team scoreboard and have to wonder if they've ever even seen the interior of a heavy or assault mech since .4. If half the mechs in the MWLL roster are inaccessible to most of the players during a round, even after an hour's play, what is the point of even having the mechs in game...they're all but wasting space and again limiting the choices of the player.

[[CW]Outlaw]

I agree with all points made thus far, and I feel alot of the problem is pricing. I have always felt that the mid range heavy mechs should be accessable by the 4th rank up, while the high end heavies and assaults come unlocked at the high ranks. This allows players who are more comfortable in the heavier units to be able to actually use them (even if they are not the best of the best) while giving access to a larger selection fairly early in the game.

I also feel that Scouts are really missing, as the Raven is really too slow to be used as a scout late in the game. I think an Owens scout configuration, making use of advanced electronics and NARC would be very useful.

[VictorMorson]

I agree with all points made thus far, and I feel alot of the problem is pricing. I have always felt that the mid range heavy mechs should be accessable by the 4th rank up, while the high end heavies and assaults come unlocked at the high ranks. This allows players who are more comfortable in the heavier units to be able to actually use them (even if they are not the best of the best) while giving access to a larger selection fairly early in the game.

My concern is actually less that the heavies are hard to access, but rather, that there seems to be a lack of support for a number of play styles in the Medium range.  There's a few decent Bushwhackers if you like specific kinds of weapons, but overall not many that I'd rank as worthwhile - a problem compounded by the fact the Uziel is very lightly armored and as I mentioned in the OP, the Hollander relies so much around a lightly armored side-torso that it completely cripples the mech - every fight I've ever had with one I've managed to wipe out 95% of it's firepower in seconds.

But overall (and given the planned additions, a future issue for IS tech only as the Clan is getting several diverse mediums) that's my largest problem - there's a lack of support for medium and cheap heavy styles of play.  I don't have a problem with tanks at all (not trying to make this into a Tank Wars Sucks thread - I like tanks!) but taking an AC/5 Partisan purely because there's not a single mech you want to pilot for a good chunk of the middle game - or just saying in a light - is pretty unfortunate.

Provided they do not plan to add a different set of chassis than what's planned (I would really like to see another medium instead of the Commando - again, I love the Commando as a unit but it's job is already taken by existing chassis and we have plenty of lights!) - I think a Hunchback (IS) would be great as it has a number of solid Missile and Laser boat variants that it might not be famous for - I am hoping that in the next release they might throw out some of the more "scattered weapon" variants and replace them with more functional, specialized designs in the middle-budget range.

[IG142]

I agree about the medium deadzone, I have felt it a couple times. On the other hand, the lack of serious brawling power in that area could be intentional. Mediums aren't assaults, so they have to rely on their speed to an extent. A 'frontline' medium may be a relative term - they still aren't meant to duke it out with heavier assets.

I disagree that all tanks are that specialized. Many are, such as Demolishers and AA, but not all. For example, look at the Oro B (Brush like a Dentist): Good armor, modest speed, a CERLBL for sniping at range, CUAC20 for primary firepower at close range, and 2 CERSBL for backup. Seems balanced to me, not at all specialist. And Oro's are placed soundly in the medium price range.

I am hoping that in the next release they might throw out some of the more "scattered weapon" variants and replace them with more functional, specialized designs in the middle-budget range.

This, I am specifically opposed to - I much prefer mixed weapon loadouts. Some specialization is fine, but things get dull when it becomes the norm. The problem is that the environment does not encourage generalists at all. Now, it would certainly be a lot easier to tweak the variants to be more effective than change the play environment, but personally I don't think Boatwars is nearly as much fun. Having to manage multiple weapon types is part of the challenge, it's just boring otherwise. I've gotten to the point that I'll pick a mixed weapon mech even if I know it will be less effective, almost as protest.

[HAARP]

Mech niches? You mean such as something more balanced than lolboats and dual-this, dual-that variants? Yeah, we have those. Niches that is.

[VictorMorson]

There's quite a few specialized tanks that work well in the upper price ranges like the Demolisher, I'll definitely say that.  But in the medium dead-zone I'm talking about, they're mostly specialized to specific roles, rather than being all-around fighters.

This, I am specifically opposed to - I much prefer mixed weapon loadouts. Some specialization is fine, but things get dull when it becomes the norm. The problem is that the environment does not encourage generalists at all. Now, it would certainly be a lot easier to tweak the variants to be more effective than change the play environment, but personally I don't think Boatwars is nearly as much fun. Having to manage multiple weapon types is part of the challenge, it's just boring otherwise. I've gotten to the point that I'll pick a mixed weapon mech even if I know it will be less effective, almost as protest.

You don't need to have units that boat the same weapon to have certain types of units that work well together, and as you've said the current environment does not reward those designs - which means the cold hard truth is, a mech with 4 types of weapons is just not going to get used that much and without a major change to gameplay mechanics, that's not going to change at all.

For example, a laser-heavy medium packing 2 Large and 4 ER Mediums would provide two kinds of weapons in a "laser boat" role just fine; likewise, a medium mech with 2 Large Pulse and an AC-10 would also work well together. 

Keep in mind, I'm not asking for min-maxing.  I'm pointing out that once you get to the Clan heavy or assault classes, you have more options for effective loadouts - including laser boats (Numerous types of the same laser) and such.  This is not an issue with weight though.  Heavies and assaults can carry more guns and more armor, sure, but there is no reason there has to be plenty of variety in effective similar-weapon groups the minute you cross that barrier.  A 4 Large Pulse Laser Awesome would still wreck a medium sporting the above example of "laser boating", but there's no reason the above example or something akin to that isn't available.

I know some people are major supporters of designs with several kinds of guns with different ranges and groups, but the bottom line is while that's nice in the board game and sometimes can be made to work here, it'll never be as effective as a mech with 1-3 firing groups of very similar weapons and thus is, sad to say, a variant nobody will end up driving all that much and is taking up space from something people might enjoy piloting more.

[xInVicTuSx]

False! General mechs work better than others in most situations. Its just there are few of them and some famous examples of bad ones. Bushwacker prime is bad because of the still questionable AC10 and flat out bad lrm5s. The Osiris prime suffers because it has much less armor and weapons than it was designed to have. But there are good examples. Mauler Prime, Warhammer Prime, Thanatos Prime, Bushwacker E... just to name a few. I hardly use boats because I flat out find them unfun to pilot, with the exception of hovercraft and tanks which feel like proper boats.

Would I love a UAC10, LPL, ssrm4 Uziel? fapp yeah! But will I get one? Who knows... probably not.
I will say though reconfiguring the variants to promote more mixed load outs is the right way to go as far as the devs are concerned. The bushwacker E is at the top of the list on the fav new designs and is a good example of mixed weapon load out. 

[Profane Arbiter]

False! General mechs work better than others in most situations. Its just there are few of them and some famous examples of bad ones. Bushwacker prime is bad because of the still questionable AC10 and flat out bad lrm5s. The Osiris prime suffers because it has much less armor and weapons than it was designed to have. But there are good examples. Mauler Prime, Warhammer Prime, Thanatos Prime, Bushwacker E... just to name a few. I hardly use boats because I flat out find them unfun to pilot, with the exception of hovercraft and tanks which feel like proper boats.

Would I love a UAC10, LPL, ssrm4 Uziel? fapp yeah! But will I get one? Who knows... probably not.
I will say though reconfiguring the variants to promote more mixed load outs is the right way to go as far as the devs are concerned. The bushwacker E is at the top of the list on the fav new designs and is a good example of mixed weapon load out.

A team full of specialists working together, each in their role of specialization is > than a bunch of generalists. That doesn't apply just to MWLL, it's like...a law of nature or something.   

[[IPA] Bravo Cadett]

False! General mechs work better than others in most situations. Its just there are few of them and some famous examples of bad ones. Bushwacker prime is bad because of the still questionable AC10 and flat out bad lrm5s. The Osiris prime suffers because it has much less armor and weapons than it was designed to have. But there are good examples. Mauler Prime, Warhammer Prime, Thanatos Prime, Bushwacker E... just to name a few. I hardly use boats because I flat out find them unfun to pilot, with the exception of hovercraft and tanks which feel like proper boats.

Would I love a UAC10, LPL, ssrm4 Uziel? fapp yeah! But will I get one? Who knows... probably not.
I will say though reconfiguring the variants to promote more mixed load outs is the right way to go as far as the devs are concerned. The bushwacker E is at the top of the list on the fav new designs and is a good example of mixed weapon load out.

bushy e for the win ^^ to bad i cant start every round with this baby v.v
your uziel variant sounds nice ... but you dont build up so much heat why dont you pack in an XPL ? higher rate of fire to supress the enemy/better dmg over time ?!

A team full of specialists working together, each in their role of specialization is > than a bunch of generalists. That doesn't apply just to MWLL, it's like...a law of nature or something.   

1.when did you see a team of specialists work together on a public game that aren't clan buddys ?
2.and when did you see a couple of guys just run around with generalists and shootin all into handy little pieces?

[Profane Arbiter]

A team full of specialists working together, each in their role of specialization is > than a bunch of generalists. That doesn't apply just to MWLL, it's like...a law of nature or something.   

1.when did you see a team of specialists work together on a public game that aren't clan buddys ?
2.and when did you see a couple of guys just run around with generalists and shootin all into handy little pieces?
[/quote]

1. Teamwork does happen in pub games...it can just be uncommon...and that doesn't invalidate the point that, say in a team vs team match, specializts would be best.

and

2.
 

[xInVicTuSx]

A team full of specialists working together, each in their role of specialization is > than a bunch of generalists. That doesn't apply just to MWLL, it's like...a law of nature or something.   

Dangerously abstract here. Because you have already assumed the specialists are working together. Therefore, let us say the generalists are working together... but how much are they working together? Are the generalists all using their single large laser to take out the biggest weapon on the long range boat as they approach? Are they like borg?

Are the specialists allowed to clump together and cover each other or do they have to split up and then start to be at disadvantages the generalists are less inclined to?

How do all the weapon and chassis weights go into this? Would it favor one over the other as weight increases?

I am not convinced at your general law.

[Profane Arbiter]

A team full of specialists working together, each in their role of specialization is > than a bunch of generalists. That doesn't apply just to MWLL, it's like...a law of nature or something.   

Dangerously abstract here. Because you have already assumed the specialists are working together. Therefore, let us say the generalists are working together... but how much are they working together? Are the generalists all using their single large laser to take out the biggest weapon on the long range boat as they approach? Are they like borg?

Are the specialists allowed to clump together and cover each other or do they have to split up and then start to be at disadvantages the generalists are less inclined to?

How do all the weapon and chassis weights go into this? Would it favor one over the other as weight increases?

I am not convinced at your general law.

Even looking at it on the micro-level without teamwork, many specialized rides (laser boats, AC boats etc) are:

A: more accurate and less cumbersome since they don't have to constantly readjust their aim based on the varying projectile speeds

B: are usually (variant dependant) bearing weapons of similar range characteristics, and so less likely to be sitting too far away to bring half your weapons to bear, or worse, too close to bring the other half of your weapons to bear, as with the ATMs.

C: will often have a range or ranges at which they are optimal, and they can play in such a way as to maneuver themselves into an optimal fighting situation and simply fall back or move forward if that situation becomes compromised.

I always prefer to know EXACTLY what my ride does and make the situation conform to me. As an example, I used to love using shotguns on various first person shooter games. The weapon was only optimal at very close range and therefore very specialized, but knowing this, and intimately knowing the map layout, I was always able to weave through the map while sticking to CQB areas where I knew I could be extremely effective.

[xDeityx]

A team full of specialists working together, each in their role of specialization is > than a bunch of generalists. That doesn't apply just to MWLL, it's like...a law of nature or something.   

The word you're looking for is Synergy.

It's when the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

[Profane Arbiter]

A team full of specialists working together, each in their role of specialization is > than a bunch of generalists. That doesn't apply just to MWLL, it's like...a law of nature or something.   

The word you're looking for is Synergy.

It's when the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Thank you Deity, though I do know the definition of synergy. Unfortunately, it's a word that's been hijacked by the business world, and I'm typically (and regrettably) forced to beat with heavy mining equipment, anyone using terms and buzz words like win-win, paradigm shift, or touch base.