Specialty Ammo and Ammo Management

[Blu C]

I'd like to see some of the specialty ammos made available and for vehicles/mechs to be able to manage their ammo from the ammo buy screen (perhaps make that available by default when you are out of base, just disable the buy ammo portion).

Specialty Ammunition I think may be add to the game:

AutoCannons: These are based on special munitions from CBT (though they may have different names).  Standard AC only.
-Flack Rounds: spreads out sort of like LB-X rounds.  Makes it easier to hit aircraft and infantry, which they do standard damage to (although it is done with splash damage).  Very low damage against hard targets like vehicles and 'Mechs.  Fewer rounds/ton, same damage.
-ER Rounds: Increases range by using a lighter shell and more propellant.  Slightly lower damage.  Same rounds/ton.  Round has higher muzzle velocity.
-Armor Piercing Rounds: Higher damage against hard targets, lower range.  Less damage against AeroSpace and VTOL (over-penetrates).  Fewer rounds/ton.
-Caseless Rounds: Carries more rounds/ton.  Generates more heat when fired and/or causes weapon to overheat faster (or at all as the case may be).

Missiles:
Inferno SRM's: Don't deal much damage, but each missile that strikes the target causes heat to spike up.  Cannot gain lock or track TAG/NARC, but can be guided by the reticule.
Incendiary LRM's: Same as Inferno SRM's.  Can maybe lock on?  Cannot track TAG/NARC, but can be guided by the reticule.
AX SRM's: Acid warheads.  Rather than exploding they dump acid on the vehicle.  Deals damage over time.  More effective against Ferro-Fibrous armor, deals half the damage of standard SRM's against standard armor.  Shorter range, cannot gain lock or track TAG/NARC, but can be guided by the reticule.
Guided SRM/LRM: Fewer rounds/ton these missiles would track in on NARC and TAG more nimbly.
Thunder LRMs: Deploys a mine field where the LRM's land.  Triggered by Seismic sensor, so light enough 'Mechs/vehicles and hover craft won't set them off.
(these next two are technically iNARC and may cause problems)
NARC ECM Pod: Negates the benefits of Artemis, BAP, and C3 systems while the pod is active.
NARC Nemesis Pod: A unit with this on will attract units missiles fired from FRIENDLY units.

Artillery:
FASCAM Rounds: Basically the same thing as Thunder LRM's, but create a denser or larger mine field.

Obviously these non-standard ammos would have different costs.

Seriously doubt all these would make their way in, and believe that some of them may not really be feasible.  It just seemed like a new mechanic that could be kind of fun, especially if there was a noticeable graphic difference between the different ammo types when fired (probably easier with the missiles).

[[IPA] Bravo Cadett]

hey sounds like all this stuff is from the tactical handbooks or ?

for now we need just 2 or 3 kinds of extra ammo

something for LRM's and ELRM's so they are better for anti air duties
something for mech AC's to deal better with tanks (maybe Armor Piercing Rounds)

Caseless ammo sounds nice to for aero's and mechs that dont have heatproblems with there AC's (partisan ^^)

inferno would be overkill if the do the same dmg as standard srm's ... would be better if they do 1/2 dmg and 1/2 heat from a flammer over 10 sec or so ...

[Blu C]

A lot of the missile stuff is from the tactical handbook, but not all of it.  For instance Inferno SRM's.  Also, some of the disadvantages are different.

inferno would be overkill if the do the same dmg as standard srm's ... would be better if they do 1/2 dmg and 1/2 heat from a flammer over 10 sec or so ...

Traditionally Infernos don't deal any damage at all, just heat.  I would like to see them deal minor damage but cause heat to rise for each missile that strikes.

[Flyingdebris]

not the exactly the first time the topic of alternate ammos has been brought forward, but none the less its a pretty good idea, just depends on how its implemented.

For instance, armor piercing rounds would need some other factors beyond doing more damage for less ammo and less aircraft damage, cause really most players aren't using their ac20s for AA duty.  They are using them to tear mechs and tanks open like a shotgun does to a soup can, less ammo won't mean much if it kills all the harder.

Also how would you balance infernos on vehicles that mount lots of srms?

not knocking the idea in general, just pointing out some things to keep in mind.

[DFDelta]

Also how would you balance infernos on vehicles that mount lots of srms?

Inferno SRMs are known to blow up when the mech produces even a little heat, so I'd use something along those lines to balance them.

Idea:
For each SRM tube that is loaded with infernos both, the redline and the absolute max-heat would lower by 20°C (so a single SRM6 loaded with infernos would reduce both by 120°C).
Also every extra ton infernos carried reduces both by 50°C. A mech with a SRM6 loaded with infernos and one extra ton of spare missiles would have redline and max-heat reduced by 170°C.

Using a single one on a mech that runs cool like a Bushy A or gauss Vulture would be effective, loading infernos into a hardcore SRM boat would be suicide.


Alternative:
Reduce heat penalties mentioned above, but make infernos loaded into the launcher explode when the heat raises over the redline. Destroys all missiles currently "in use", and deals damage to the body part where the launcher is located (depending on how many missiles were left in the currently loaded "clip")

[Blu C]

Well, that depends largely on how much less ammo.

In CBT AP AC20 rounds are 2 rounds per ton.  That is lower than half.  AP AC10 rounds are only 5 rounds per ton.  Effectively you carry half as many rounds as you normally would.  (New thought: You could also cause the heavier AP rounds to have a lower range or a more sever ballistic trajectory).

For the topic of Inferno SRM's there are several ways I could see to balance SRM carriers.  The first immediate one is that SRM's are less accurate as they lack the ability to lock on or be guided by NARC or TAG.  This means that to get a lot of hits you need to keep your reticule on the target which probably means getting close - remember that the total heat imparted would depend on how many missiles hit (a single missile hitting probably will cause a slight heat spike, but nothing to worry about).  You could also do stuff like make the missiles fly a bit slower and be less maneuverable than standard SRM's.  Basically a lot of the balance involves (a) how much heat an individual missile causes and (b) how easy it is to hit someone with a lot of missiles if they are actively dodging.

In CBT Inferno type rounds are also very heat sensitive (for obvious reasons) and cook off at lower temperatures than regular ammo, so we could possibly do something with that.

[VictorMorson]

I think the real problem here is the fact that custom ammo would be hard to implement - it's likely that some of these things could in fact be neat, but would have to be custom weapons instead.  For example I think a Narc Nemesis pod would be pretty awesome to see in game and sure would be a cool weapon to load up on a light recon mech or hovercraft.  None of those things are out of the realm of being added, really, given the basics are covered. 

So yes, I'd love to see more advanced gear but as it stands I think we'll only see it as an entirely separate weapon.  If they were going to add alternate ammo, I'm sure they'd focused on it already for ATMs, which are at present entirely different than their CBT version because there's no way to change munitions.

That said, I think the Narc ECM pod sounds entirely useless for this sort of game, really, and it's even questionable in the board game - way too much of a niche.  By the same token, I think Thunder LRMs would be easily on my #1 spot for things I'd like to see added eventually, because that could make for some really interesting scenarios.  Hell, I'd love to even see a FASCAM version of the Long Tom, because I think that'd be pretty cool in and of itself, as long as there's some way of clearing the minefields.

[Blu C]

I donno, I think it would be quite easy to manage from the ammo screen in the buy menu.

Just break it into 2 halves.  The buy menu and the 'use' menu.

Under the use menu there would be a list of your ammo dependent weapons and some sort of way to toggle between different ammo types that are loaded on the 'Mech.

A very simple way to manage ammo is to have an ammo queue.  Basically the order you buy your ammunition would be the order it would be loaded into the weapon.  Perhaps put in some way to manage the queue as well and to dump the currently loaded ammunition.

For Example:

You buy a Harasser Prime which has 2 free tons.  Because a Harasser Prime is pretty cheap you have a lot of money left over, so you decide to buy a ton of Inferno SRM and a ton of Guided SRM ammo.  After running around for a bit you see a couple enemy 'Mechs are locked in combat with some people on your side, so you dump your standard SRM ammo for the currently selected launcher, which causes the next ammo in the queue to be loaded: your inferno ammo.  Rather than dealing much damage to the enemy 'Mechs you cause heat problems for them which seriously impedes their ability to fight.  Later still you are not happy with how the Inferno SRM's do not have the ability to lock on so you dump your remaining inferno ammo which causes your launcher to load the Guided SRM's.  These can lock on, and you soon discover that they track onto NARC-ed and TAG-ed units much better than standard SRM's.

[VictorMorson]

I donno, I think it would be quite easy to manage from the ammo screen in the buy menu.

The interface isn't the problem, but the actual coding of a weapon that behaves entirely differently depending on which ammo you purchase is likely quite difficult.  Probably doable, but I doubt on their "biggest fish to fry" list unfortunately.  Where as adding another weapon completely would probably be much easier for the devs to handle right now.

[Frostiken]

Well to be fair, Crysis supports one weapon / multiple ammos. One or two of the weapons in the original game supported standard ammo, incendiary ammo, as well as even fire modes to change shotgun choke and such.

[=KoS= Tripod]

how did you equip incendiary ammo in crysis anyway?

[Frostiken]

With the customization menu.

In the game code it wasn't a new weapon or anything, it was literally just a new ammo type. I can't see multiple ammos being all that difficult to implement in the code, but the UI might be a bit of work.

Ammo types and fire modes is how Crysis handled grenade launchers, incendiary ammo, and the sleep darts. The weapon never changed:

Code: [Select]

<firemode name="GrenadeLauncher" type="Single" enabled="0">
<fire>
<param name="ammo_type" value="scargrenade" />
<param name="clip_size" value="1" />
<param name="max_clips" value="10" />
<param name="rate" value="40" />
<param name="damage" value="250" />
<param name="reload_time" value="3.2" />
<param name="bullet_chamber" value="0" />
<param name="helper_tp" value="weapon_term" />
<param name="aim_helper" value="1" />
<param name="distance" value="-1" />
</fire>
<muzzleflash>
<firstperson effect="muzzleflash.AssaultRifle.grenade" helper="grenade_flash_effect" light_helper="grenade_flash_light" />
<thirdperson effect="muzzleflash.AssaultRifle.grenade_tp" helper="grenade_term" light_helper="grenade_term" />
</muzzleflash>
<reject>
<firstperson effect="" helper="" />
<thirdperson effect="" helper="" />
</reject>
<actions>
<param name="fire" value="fire_gl" />
<param name="fire_cock" value="fire_gl" />
<param name="reload_chamber_empty" value="reload_gl"/>
<param name="reload_chamber_full" value="reload_gl"/>
<param name="reload" value="reload_gl"/>
</actions>
</firemode>
<firemode name="Tac Sleep" type="Single" enabled="0" >
<fire>
<param name="ammo_type" value="tacbullet" />
<param name="clip_size" value="-1" />
<param name="damage" value="30" />
<param name="rate" value="6" />
<param name="hit_type" value="tac" />
<param name="helper_tp" value="weapon_term" />
</fire>
<actions>
<param name="fire" value="fire_tac" />
<param name="fire_cock" value="fire_tac" />
<param name="reload_chamber_empty" value="reload_tac"/>
<param name="reload_chamber_full" value="reload_tac"/>
</actions>
<reject>
<firstperson effect="" helper="" />
<thirdperson effect="" helper="" />
</reject>
</firemode>
</firemodes>
Notice that incendiary ammo simply changes the damage and the ammo_type, and *bam* the weapon uses a new ammo with its own effects.

[Blu C]

+1

You know, I had been aware of both those facts (firing mode and ammo type) but hadn't considered the possibility of using that to cycle ammo types Frost.  Makes me feel a bit on the slow side.  Heh.

[Frostiken]

Actually I was mistaken (a little). Just because incendiary changes the 'default' fire mode of the weapon (the dakka), it's even simpler than a fire mode: Selecting the incendiary ammo 'accessory'  on the customization menu simply changes damage and ammo type as follows:

Code: [Select]

<accessory name="FY71IncendiaryAmmo">
<attach action="reload_chamber_empty" helper="magazine" layer="" />
<detach action="reload_chamber_empty" />
<params>
<firemodes>
<firemode type="default">
<fire>
<param name="ammo_type" value="incendiarybullet" />
<param name="damage" value="130" />
</fire>
</firemode>
</firemodes>
</params>
</accessory>


Since the MWLL weapons are still built on top of Crysis' weapon code, "all" you'd need to do is put in a 'change ammo' key that changes the weapon projectile with either of the above examples. I doubt actually making the functionality is a problem - rather the problem is:

1) UI integration (showing what you're using would probably require UI tweaks and I don't think they're doing that right now - I suspect a new mech HUD coming someday though)
2) Handling spare tons and changing ammo types
3) Handling ammo types for multiple weapons

If you just had one weapon this would be trivial, but... since mechs kind of seem to mount four five six weapons at once... making one LB-20X fire slugs and the other fire cluster rounds might be an issue. You'd also have to remove the default free ton of ammo weapons come with (not that that'd be a bad thing).

[Snow Gibbon]

I was thinking about guided LRMs. I thought that they would be fired in a single wall. The missiles can be steered around through a (really bad and low res) camera in the missile in the centre of the wall. Very long ranged, up to 2000m, but relatively low damaging. Useful for intercepting aircraft and indirect bombardment without spotter equipment.

Also, Acid missiles? Seriously?