ASF > Mech ... it's faithful to the fiction

[Virt]

Of late I've been re-reading the original Battletech novels.     It's interesting to consider the power and role of ASF in the novels, relative to how they play out on the MWLL battlefields.   

While Mechs are the iconic battlefield asset in Battletech, it soon becomes apparent that ASF are indeed powerful and feared Mechs-busters.    For example:

1. In "The Sword and the Dagger", several engagements feature ASF swooping across the battlefield, and destroying light to medium Mechs in one pass.

2. In "Lethal Heritage", which chronicles the Clans' reappearance and invasion of the Inner Sphere, a key plot point revolves around the strength of ASF over Mechs.   (Phelan Kell contrives a plan specifically to draw away a wing of Inner Sphere ASF from a Clan plantary invasion.)

There are many other examples.   In fact, I'm - almost - left with the question of why the Inner Sphere and Clans spend so much time fielding Mechs and Tanks.   ASF wreak enormous damage on ground and in space, they streak in at NOE making them hard to detect and hit, they get in and out of battle quickly, you don't need Dropships to move most of them around, etc.   

Conclusion: for those of us playing MWLL, the fiction says that it's entirely appropriate for ASF's to be hard to detect, to streak in and cause enormous damage on the ground battle, and then streak away.

Anyway, I thought others might find this observation interesting.

[Ingrater]

It's obvious why they field so much mechs, they are just cooler ^^

[=KoS=Zeus]

While that may be logical and made "canon" in the universe by the books, it is not how they function in the board game. Sure, they can streak across several map sheets in a single turn, but a Battlemech has just as many shots at an ASF as an ASF has at it, and the ASF is FAR more fragile.

Additionally, having ASF function more like the books would make the rest of the game incredibly un-fun. There is a reason why air power in the modern world is so devastating, and that's because it is not balanced against ground assets in regards to a cross section of a single battle. Logistically they may balance out against cheaper ground assets, but if you have a battle where you have air superiority, you are probably going to win it, and that's all MWLL is, single battles with no attention paid to the logistics outside of that battle.

[Profane Arbiter]

Once again for those on the ground IT"S NOT FUN.

Canon cannot compromise fun.

The tanks and heavy/ assault mechs take too long to drive into battle just to either die suddenly or be forced all the way back to the hangar without firing a shot.

Does that sound like fun to you?

If you nerfed the damage output of the aero, it would still be fun to fly. Why? Because you're still able to quickly hop back into the action.

[Virt]

Additionally, having ASF function more like the books would make the rest of the game incredibly un-fun. There is a reason why air power in the modern world is so devastating, and that's because it is not balanced against ground assets in regards to a cross section of a single battle. Logistically they may balance out against cheaper ground assets, but if you have a battle where you have air superiority, you are probably going to win it, and that's all MWLL is, single battles with no attention paid to the logistics outside of that battle.

I agree.   And that is why I am going to make a heretical suggestion...

I think MWLL might actually be a better game if the air assets were limited* to VTOLs.

In MWLL we (and the devs) are working with a relatively small battlefield.   It makes sense for slow-moving and heavily armoured VTOLs to be part of such an engagement because, they work in a similar scale of battlefield as the Mechs and Tanks and BAs.   

Air-to-ground ASF should ideally be sweeping in at high speed from a long way away, making a strike, and be gone.   However, the necessary limits on the size of a MWLL battlefield don't allow them to perform that way.   Instead, the devs are forced into a compromise which enables the ASF bombers to fly much slower, turn much tighter, field non-intuitively large amounts of armour to withstand the ground fire they attract because they're flying slower, etc etc etc.   

So, the air-to-ground ASF we have in MWLL end up being a bit of a Frakenasset ... with all the inherent advantages of ASF as detailed in the fiction, plus some other advantages grafted on by the devs as a necessary compromise forced by the size of the battlefield.     Much as I like flying my Sullas and Shivas, I can't help but feel it's a bit too easy sometimes, less realistic than the rest of the assets, and not particularly integrated to the ground battle raging below.

Anyway, food for thought, just thought I'd put it on the table as a thought.






* I'd also be tempted to add Air-to-Air ASF, as a counter to the VTOLs.   But of course, then we'd be back into the compromises of slower speed and heavier armour necessary to get an ASF to work within a MWLL scale battlefield.

[=KoS= Eldragon]

I'm pretty sure even Aero jocks would hate it. Because quite simply Aero would need to obey the laws of physics.

Aerospace would have to perform strafing runs at high speed. No more hovering at stall speed. Aero stall speed would be around 400 kph. And your turning radius would be much much larger than is now.  So no more weaving in between  the trees or pulling out of a 90 degree dive in under 20 meters.

Not to mention a minor lag hiccup when you're going 900kph

But again... its just a game. balance trumps all.

[Virt]

Let's hope they never let us fly those Dropships, huh    

[SquareSphere }12thVR{]

Well the reason why we still need ground pounders is to hold territory.  Sure an ASF can make a city or base empty out it's inhabitants, but they're terrible for riot control.

For most BT battles a lot of times the objective is to not break the other side, but more we need to capture and hold X asset which you can't do in ASF.

[Virt]

Well the reason why we still need ground pounders is to hold territory. 

Wouldn't you just do that with BA...? 

Big ground assets like Mechs and Tanks are easy for ASF bombers to detect, target and destroy.    So just send in a squad of BA to take out the base defences, capture the base, and hold it.   ASF would be left flying around looking for something big enough drop our payload on.     

[Serious Table]

I'm willing to bet it's more for precision, occupation, and staying power.  Remember, a lot of the combat involved reclaiming territories versus destroying them, which is why they outlawed space-to-surface weaponry if I remember correctly.

ASFs can do a tremendous amount of damage very quickly, but they're limited by their fuel capacity and a ground to land on to refuel.  They also generally cause devastation over a wide area with the bombs that they deploy to wipe out Mechs.  A Battlemech also doles out devastation like its their job, but they can focus it much more with directed weaponry that high yield bombs simply can't replicate.  Plus, the fusion reactors present on a Battlemech means you can field a devastating amount of firepower on a platform that doesn't require constant refueling or a soft straight ground to land on.

ASF if you want to blow shit up.  Battlemechs if you want to blow it up and keep it.

[MaximusPayne]

I'm willing to bet mechs make for a better story.

[dsi1]

Just like in (*GASP*) real life, air superiority is required if you want to win the ground war.

The only problem I really see with aero is that 1 aero = 1 less ground unit on the field, if the aero pilot isn't very good your team is going to do a lot worse as a whole.

[=KoS= Eldragon]

Just like in (*GASP*) real life, air superiority is required if you want to win the ground war.

The only problem I really see with aero is that 1 aero = 1 less ground unit on the field, if the aero pilot isn't very good your team is going to do a lot worse as a whole.

Right. It drives me crazy when my team has 6 guys flying around annoying the enemy while the remaining 6 or so are actually trying to take points.. You team is outnumbered at every turn.

[Arghy]

I also remember 4 novels saying how aeros getting raped when going against prepared mechs--the rifleman and the jaeger mech were designed to slaughter aeros and do so on numerous occasions.

[=KoS= Saber15]

Keep in mind that just about everything in CBT can still shoot at aeros, while in MWLL only a AA tank can really effectively fight back (without being at a dead stop)

Wouldn't you just do that with BA...? 

Big ground assets like Mechs and Tanks are easy for ASF bombers to detect, target and destroy.    So just send in a squad of BA to take out the base defences, capture the base, and hold it.   ASF would be left flying around looking for something big enough drop our payload on.     

You thinking about MWLL BA or CBT BA? The BA in CBT aren't that great, and they didn't exist until the clanners showed up. BA lack staying power in combat, as they have almost no ammunition for their SRMs so they have to rely on their claw/lasers.

A Battlemech also doles out devastation like its their job, but they can focus it much more with directed weaponry that high yield bombs simply can't replicate.  Plus, the fusion reactors present on a Battlemech means you can field a devastating amount of firepower on a platform that doesn't require constant refueling or a soft straight ground to land on.

Aerospace fighters all have fusion engines so they can function in space (hence the aerospace part), though I think they still need refueling for some reason, even though a fusion torch engine wouldn't need much refueling and would be way more efficient than jet fuel