A Message to the Devs and Players

[[CW]Aresye]

How would you feel if the subject of years of your dedicated development were being referenced as above?

Most graphics work doesn't take years, but I've had my fair share of complaints like that.  Once we even designed the graphics (buttons, banners, layout, etc) for an entire clan's website.  They weren't impressed, criticized our work, and then told us they would get it somewhere else.  The sad thing, is when we were double checking their request, ours was exactly how they wanted it.  Almost makes me believe they were just trolling.  It was maybe a week's worth of work split between 3 designers, but it still cut pretty deep.  I can't imagine how much worse it feels with a multi-year project.

[HAARP]

Just a sampling of the various things that I and the rest of the team get to read on a regular basis.  How would you feel if the subject of years of your dedicated development were being referenced as above?

I'd be glad that people care enough about my game that they try to post ideas to make it better. And that they are honest enough to say how it is, unlikely certain sheep. I'd try to address shortcomings and get a stable, workable platform going before throwing in new assets.

Seriously Leer, as a dev you need a thick hide. People will complain about things, often rightfully, often not. It doesn't mean that they hate your game or don't play it. Quite the opposite actually.
But you also can't expect everybody to just "like" your decisions, especially when there are issues that seemingly never get addressed, or issues that are shoved under the rug with "there will be changes" and in the end it turns out it still doesn't work.

Issues like:
Heat/coolant, slowdown when jumping, boaty and unimaginative assets, weapons with no clear purpose, weapons with a clear, overpowered purpose, ranking system (don't have problems with that one personally), insta-kill aeros (not a problem on my part either, it's avoidable), insta-kill against aeros, aero ramming and randomly exploding when touching the hangar bay, cheap, flying beatstick, EW equipment boring and copied straight out of MW4, then dumped onto every other asset, pricing for many loadouts is way off their usefulness, useless pulse lasers that lack in damage and put out shittons of heat, etc.
And then minor issues that just hurt the perfection, like the ballistic arm on the Summoner, optics still being in the weapons list, BA could be fleshed out better instead of having that weapon-switch mechanic, things like that. You may think that's not a big deal, but it hurts the big picture.

Your utter secrecy and unwillingness to share much about planned changes and the lack of a proper bugtracker doesn't help either (I could submit a shitton of bugs, if I didn't have to deal with the annoying forums and the lack of feedback I get for it). You seem to think you're a professional game studio - you're not. The level of quality in this game is often very impressive and more than comparable to that of commercial games, but you still need the community to make it work. Not a game studio.

Personally, I won't stop complaining about the things I dislike. I speak my mind freely and wouldn't ever censor myself or accept external censorship. Also, OCD prevents me from being at ease with anything but the perfect game.
And I will not stop complaining until this game is what it was meant to be: An awesome representation of Battletech that doesn't reek of MW4 anymore, beyond the scale of previous MechWarrior games, with a level of quality that pulls in thousands of players.

[~SJ~ Wolf]

And I will not stop complaining until this game is what it was meant to be: An awesome representation of Battletech that doesn't reek of MW4 anymore, beyond the scale of previous MechWarrior games, with a level of quality that pulls in thousands of players.

+motherfapping 1.

[VictorMorson]

Your utter secrecy and unwillingness to share much about planned changes and the lack of a proper bugtracker doesn't help either (I could submit a shitton of bugs, if I didn't have to deal with the annoying forums and the lack of feedback I get for it). You seem to think you're a professional game studio - you're not. The level of quality in this game is often very impressive and more than comparable to that of commercial games, but you still need the community to make it work. Not a game studio.

This right here is the kind of post I mean you should read to the whole dev team, dramatically, next time you talk and then laugh hysterically at. 

It's also the reason we need anti-karma.

ou seem to think you're a professional game studio - you're not.

As a side note, you guys are more professional than a lot of established, funded game studios.  Seriously.  I have seen things you people would not believe.. producers who can't find power buttons on their own consoles.. lead designers who never read their design doc.. all lost, like posts on the internet.

Also, OCD prevents me from being at ease with anything but the perfect game.

Man, I wish you could buy someone a custom title on these forums because HAARP is begging for one.
"Make this game my way, because I HAVE A DISORDER!"

[Serious Table]

Your utter secrecy and unwillingness to share much about planned changes and the lack of a proper bugtracker doesn't help either (I could submit a shitton of bugs, if I didn't have to deal with the annoying forums and the lack of feedback I get for it). You seem to think you're a professional game studio - you're not. The level of quality in this game is often very impressive and more than comparable to that of commercial games, but you still need the community to make it work. Not a game studio.

This right here is the kind of post I mean you should read to the whole dev team, dramatically, next time you talk and then laugh hysterically at. 

It's also the reason we need anti-karma.

A +1 for this.  Dear god, I'd like to submit a petition on his ass to remove posting privileges, and file it under the "self-entitled prick" category.

Haarp, you're getting this mod (MODIFICATION, do note) from a group of astoundingly talented developers who are VOLUNTEERING THEIR TIME to provide you this form of entertainment.  How about you run that through your thick head of yours three or four times the next time you decide to post with demands of changes because you don't like something, because it doesn't fit your personal vision of the perfect mechwarrior game. 

Personally, I won't stop complaining about the things I dislike. I speak my mind freely and wouldn't ever censor myself or accept external censorship. Also, OCD prevents me from being at ease with anything but the perfect game.
And I will not stop complaining until this game is what it was meant to be: An awesome representation of Battletech that doesn't reek of MW4 anymore, beyond the scale of previous MechWarrior games, with a level of quality that pulls in thousands of players.

Then I suggest you stop posting now---right now---unless you plan on paying each one of these volunteers 60k+ a year to do what they so graciously do for free already.  Or better yet, assemble your own team and start your own mod.  You aren't a dev and you aren't as knowledgeable as you'd like to think you are when it comes to WTF the devs are doing.  You aren't paying a cent towards this project, either.  You don't pay a monthly subscription, you didn't buy their modification for any amount of money, and they don't owe you anything.  You, therefore, have no right to demand things be changed to fit your vision.

Suggestions for improvements are fine.  Demanding and demeaning developers is not.  So sit down, shut up, and enjoy your free mod.

[~SJ~ Wolf]

Your utter secrecy and unwillingness to share much about planned changes and the lack of a proper bugtracker doesn't help either (I could submit a shitton of bugs, if I didn't have to deal with the annoying forums and the lack of feedback I get for it). You seem to think you're a professional game studio - you're not. The level of quality in this game is often very impressive and more than comparable to that of commercial games, but you still need the community to make it work. Not a game studio.

This right here is the kind of post I mean you should read to the whole dev team, dramatically, next time you talk and then laugh hysterically at. 

It's also the reason we need anti-karma.

Careful what you wish for, that swings both ways

you seem to think you're a professional game studio - you're not.


As a side note, you guys are more professional than a lot of established, funded game studios.  Seriously.  I have seen things you people would not believe.. producers who can't find power buttons on their own consoles.. lead designers who never read their design doc.. all lost, like posts on the internet.

[/quote]

So because some people are bad at their jobs we are supposed to understand? I have no idea what you are trying to say.

[MerfMerf]

I am thinking very outspoken or offensive posts are passively encouraged. Writing a reflection on some gameplay aspect or bringing up a concern backed by numbers and in game examples often at most yields a few quotes from other players with some possible "+1" in them. Often there are those who disagree with varying degrees of eloquence in their replies. Finally someone tires and brings out the posts the devs really do not want to read (the completely broken, this reeks of incompetence, no vision, etc) and lo and behold. Suddenly a dev is there commenting on the issue! While the dev is rightfully upset there is usually a pearl of information brought to show those rude forum people that they are wrong. Not unlike certain drooling dogs a group of individuals learn to associate a direct attack with a reward in the form of information.

/Merf - Offering observations from its corner of the internet.

[Serious Table]

So because some people are bad at their jobs we are supposed to understand? I have no idea what you are trying to say.

I believe he was implying that these developers who are volunteer and unpaid are doing their job better than several paid developers do/are doing/have done in the past.

[~SJ~ Wolf]

So because some people are bad at their jobs we are supposed to understand? I have no idea what you are trying to say.

I believe he was implying that these developers who are volunteer and unpaid are doing their job better than several paid developers do/are doing/have done in the past.

So because they volunteer all traditional expectations, feedback methods, and usual BS that goes with it somehow goes out the door?

I definitely DO NOT agree with rude posts, or calling the devs or their game shit. (you can find me calling people out for that via the search box/posting history). What I do think however is that whether it is the first thread or the 9234634390392 thread doesn't invalidate the content. I do feel that whether or not there is any merit to a suggestion it has a place on the board because someone who is passionate about the mod posted it.

People read something in a post and assume about the tone, the emotional intent, the furiousness of the keypresses and a whatever else an overactive forumgoers imagination can think up. They assume exponentially further than they would in verbal conversation. I rarely agree with HAARP but because I talk to him often I know that what he said in his post is not malicious, and I know the real thing that matters is the part I +1'd.

edit:
Perhaps the devs could let us police ourselves a bit more. Does a dev really need to step in and put them self in the line of fire when the community has already beat up the idea/opinion/suggestion?

[Toth]

Ok, decided to pop a few messages off the stack, and roll this thread back to a non-complete shit state.

I'd be glad that people care enough about my game that they try to post ideas to make it better. And that they are honest enough to say how it is, unlikely certain sheep. I'd try to address shortcomings and get a stable, workable platform going before throwing in new assets.

Seriously Leer, as a dev you need a thick hide. People will complain about things, often rightfully, often not. It doesn't mean that they hate your game or don't play it. Quite the opposite actually.
But you also can't expect everybody to just "like" your decisions, especially when there are issues that seemingly never get addressed, or issues that are shoved under the rug with "there will be changes" and in the end it turns out it still doesn't work.

Issues like:
Heat/coolant, slowdown when jumping, boaty and unimaginative assets, weapons with no clear purpose, weapons with a clear, overpowered purpose, ranking system (don't have problems with that one personally), insta-kill aeros (not a problem on my part either, it's avoidable), insta-kill against aeros, aero ramming and randomly exploding when touching the hangar bay, cheap, flying beatstick, EW equipment boring and copied straight out of MW4, then dumped onto every other asset, pricing for many loadouts is way off their usefulness, useless pulse lasers that lack in damage and put out shittons of heat, etc.
And then minor issues that just hurt the perfection, like the ballistic arm on the Summoner, optics still being in the weapons list, BA could be fleshed out better instead of having that weapon-switch mechanic, things like that. You may think that's not a big deal, but it hurts the big picture.

Your utter secrecy and unwillingness to share much about planned changes and the lack of a proper bugtracker doesn't help either (I could submit a shitton of bugs, if I didn't have to deal with the annoying forums and the lack of feedback I get for it). You seem to think you're a professional game studio - you're not. The level of quality in this game is often very impressive and more than comparable to that of commercial games, but you still need the community to make it work. Not a game studio.

Let me be straight with you HAARP, your use of the phrase "honest enough to tell them how it is", is exactly why some of you get flat out ignored on this forum. You assume you know better when you barely know how the systems work. You apply your experiences to everyone, when you are often just the vocal minority. If you can't see that and work within in that framework then you will continue to get ignored. Its that simple. Most developers in other projects wouldn't even take the time to clarify that point because they wouldn't care. I do, and I like King see a ugly under current of entitlement. Some of you wonder why we respond, but its because if no one moderates then that undercurrent will swell , drowning out all the normal more rational posts. Since that isn't working, we will simply start locking/removing posts like most developer forums do.

"Seriously Leer, as a dev you need a thick hide.": No we don't. Its that simple. We don't get paid for this and we don't HAVE to do or act in any particular way. Everything we do, we do for happiness of the player base. Beyond that there are no rules. Thats why I believe that this game is something special.

We can't expect you to like ALL of our decisions, but we will expect you to respect them. We do expect you to trust our decisions over the long term, and we expect you to be mature enough to realize your opinion is only representative of your own.

90% of the things you list in that post were clearly opinion and not fact. They were further made with a tone of "my opinion is the only one". Therefore you will continue to be ignored. Its that simple.

[sgnl05]

How did this thread get to be 4 pages long?

It's real simple: you get to offer up any opinions you want on whatever mod related matters you want, as long as you're polite, you make it clear that you're simply stating your personal opinion, you don't go on to state it again 40000000000000 times, and any suggestions you offer more or less fit with what you understand the dev's vision of the mod to be.


Failure to abide by this results in this:

http://forum.mechlivinglegends.net/index.php/topic,12393.msg191271.html#msg191271

I stopped reading large portions of this forum, because every time I read them, I don't want to work on the mod any more.

Which is pretty much bad for everybody.


I'm sure I've broken the above rule at least once, because it's easy to get carried away and overstate your point. But I think it's truly stupid to argue that it isn't a good rule, because apparently by not following it we're pissing the devs off and making them not want to be devs anymore.


EDIT: Actually it's pretty cool that we get paid as much attention as we do. I've followed a bunch of mods where the developers had a GRAND VISION that nobody was allowed to disagree with, and any posts that did were criticised pretty harshly. For some of those mods, it eventually turned out that the GRAND VISION was a complete mess but the developers wouldn't shift from it because it was their baby. I think it's actually somewhat unusual that community suggestions are seriously considered at all round here, and are regularly responded to by devs. Even if the response more often than not is, "this isn't a very good idea. Here is why:"

[HAARP]

90% of the things you list in that post were clearly opinion and not fact. They were further made with a tone of "my opinion is the only one". Therefore you will continue to be ignored. Its that simple.

Yes, Toth. You're right, they are. But I  am rarely alone in my opinion.
And I believe that I know what I'm talking about a bit more than you care to admit. Having played around with Sandbox and testing things gained me some insight into this game. It may not give me the knowledge the devs have, but it means that I'm not completely ignorant.

I won't respect decisions that I feel hurt the game. Sorry, that's a big no-can-do.
Don't ever make the mistake of giving me an opportunity to change the game, cause I will I just see this mod, all the potential it has, tainted by some (yes, in my opinion!) broken mechanics and unimaginative decisions, when it could be so much more. Yes, I have my own personal opinion of what would be best. Call me egomanical or whatever, but I dare to say that it would work!


Having said all that, I still hold the utmost respect for your team, your skills and the time every single one of you dedicated to bring us this. Even if my posts appear harsh. You put out and awesome and intensive experience that is fun to play in. I just happen to be the person who has even more fun thinking about game mechanics.
And yes, it's a free mod. People keep telling me that, as if it changed facts. Yes, I appreciate and enjoy the free mod I've been given! But that doesn't magically make the game perfect.

[Toth]

I'm rolling back posts again, because I feel there is worthwhile discussion in this thread that should remain for posterity.

It doesn't matter if you are alone or not HAARP, thats not the point. The point is as developers we have to have a much broader scope, or else we are simply pandering. If you read about this you'll see that this stance is used across the industry, because otherwise your game will turn to shit.

As far as Sandbox giving you insight? It can't man, not unless you have our code base, our design documents, etc. Its not just about the process of making a game, its how our game is designed and implemented.

As for unimaginative decisions? Once again the game is not complete. We work on what we feel like when we feel like. Things get polished with time, and patience is required. All you have to do is have fun and play the game (or not play it if you have other things to do).

No it doesn't make the game perfect, no developer has ever even hinted this. It does mean that we expect more patience and understanding from our community than a developer that is charging you money.