Author Topic: Clan society  (Read 27655 times)

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Offline Kalon

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2011, 09:30:22 PM »
Really interesting stuff, Kelmola pretty much hit the nail in the head for the looks and feels of the different clans how I imagined them.
Wolves/Bears are all "fapp it, lets drink, shit on the rules and just overrunn anything with a loud battlecry" (closest to "normal :D") while Falcons are calculated and methodic etc. with the Jags being the epitome of warrior-style thinking.

The Wolves are actually quite methodical e.g. their preparation for Tukkayid, the Bears are determined & resolute, us Falcons are a combination of Wolves & Bears while the Jaguars are just "LEROY JENKINS!!!!!!!!!!"

Offline shyrkonflex

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2011, 09:45:27 PM »
I always thought Wolves where known neglecting all rules and strategy and balancing that by being ... badass.
Tukayyid actually shows just that, they are (where) really thinking out of the box when they where wardens, but where still very potent in battle.
The abscence of methodic or use of the "planned" way was actually what enabled them to stay very flexible and powerfull.

Im not an expert though, might be that I mistaken (This is also Stackpoles rendition of the wolves as far as I remember, he always exenturated the differences between the individual clans a lot).

Offline ~SJ~ Amarus

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2011, 02:21:00 PM »
@ ~SJ~ Amarus  How dio you explain the Smoke Jaguars treament of Horse & his Trinary in Freebirth? Yes they were freeborn but they were warriors of Jade Falcon.

I explain that with the fact that the warrior in command, and responsible for his treatment, Rossou Howell was an absolute fapp up. Realize, that if he went on and about like that in Jaguar culture that bastard would have had his block knocked bloody well off! No Jaguar would put up with his antics, even if he was shiting on some freeborn Falcons! It was an aberation of Clan society and tradition, that book pretty much said, "Ok, I know clans act like this(insert traditonal clan society here), and they are pretty honorable, esspecially to their own kind but we are about to wipe out an entire faction, and we have never done that before because everyone is equally evil and good, so to make this stick we need the Jaguar's look like the most evil God-awful nasty characters in the history of the game."

Yeah I pretty much think that is how it went. And from what I have heard from ex-FASA staff, that is pretty much the thought process of those writers that were offing the Jaguar's.

Bloody reprehensible the way my Jaguar's were manhandled.


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Offline ~SJ~ Amarus

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2011, 02:28:46 PM »
Really interesting stuff, Kelmola pretty much hit the nail in the head for the looks and feels of the different clans how I imagined them.
Wolves/Bears are all "fapp it, lets drink, shit on the rules and just overrunn anything with a loud battlecry" (closest to "normal :D") while Falcons are calculated and methodic etc. with the Jags being the epitome of warrior-style thinking.

The Wolves are actually quite methodical e.g. their preparation for Tukkayid, the Bears are determined & resolute, us Falcons are a combination of Wolves & Bears while the Jaguars are just "LEROY JENKINS!!!!!!!!!!"

Neg, the Jaguar's are very well thought out, traditional and warrior minded. If you actually look at how the Jaguar's bid and fought at Tukayyid then you will realize that it makes perfect sense for who they were as a Clan.

In the Clan honor system, to bid the lowest and win is the most honor, also whoever bids the lowest lands first and has the honor of first blood. Therefore Jaguar's, steeped in tradition, bid the lowest (Jaguar's are known as ruthless bidders) because they wanted the honor of first to land. The Jaguar's outfitted their forces in traditional clan style (which did not afford for a long protracted campaign, like the Comguards had planned) and fought in traditional clan manner (they adhered to Zellbringen even when other clans called a grand melee when Zellbringen was broken by Comguard units.)  The Clans went into this battle with no knowledge of Comguard forces, when the Comguards had every shred of knowledge that anyone could have on the clans, after all they had been watching them for three years straight.

Point is, Jaguar's are not anything close to "LEROY JENKINS!!!!!", they are traditional clan warriors, plan as such, fight as such, and when they have been commited to battle are the most ruthless and savage of all of the clans. But until they are commited, they do have their wits about them, in fact they are quite cunning.


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Offline shyrkonflex

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2011, 03:03:09 PM »
Thats exactly what I remembered of the Jags, they kinda have this berserker-styler attitude in which they fight only for the sake of fighting aka never neglect any rules of combat or do any stuff thats considered even close to unhonorable and completely ignoring the expected outcome of the fight.
A bravely fought loss means more than an unhonorable victory for them.
They think that if they loose a fight without breaking the rules they where not strong enough and surviving Jags are usually looked upon by their fellow warriors for not dying in battle (look at that Trent guy).

You could say they are taking the warrior lifestyle the most serious of all the clans (which makes them "bad" people seen from IS perspective).

Offline ~SJ~ Amarus

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2011, 03:19:34 PM »
Thats exactly what I remembered of the Jags, they kinda have this berserker-styler attitude in which they fight only for the sake of fighting aka never neglect any rules of combat or do any stuff thats considered even close to unhonorable and completely ignoring the expected outcome of the fight.
A bravely fought loss means more than an unhonorable victory for them.
They think that if they loose a fight without breaking the rules they where not strong enough and surviving Jags are usually looked upon by their fellow warriors for not dying in battle (look at that Trent guy).

You could say they are taking the warrior lifestyle the most serious of all the clans (which makes them "bad" people seen from IS perspective).

True to some extent.

You are correct in your analysis of my statement of how the Jaguar's fight. That much is ture, they are the most strict adherents to honorable warfare as set down by the Founder. An honorable loss is not better than a dishonorable victory, because the latter would never happen. To a Jaguar honorable combat is the only type of combat, therefore a loss is a loss and a win is a win, there is no distinction between honorable and not, unless it is them evaluating how the enemy fought.

Now on the issue of how warriors that survived Tukayyid were treated, that is purely subjective. If you are refering to Paul Moon and Trent, I will once again state that Exodus Road through Prince of Havoc, are all written will one point of view (the Inner Sphere), I say this because the Jaguar POV was only put there to show how depraved and evil they were. The whole series is BS and throws and "example" of Jaguar society
into serious doubt. Paul Moon was drawn up to be the most irredeemably evil character in Exodus Road, he
was Trent's torrmentor the entire book, so that it ended up with a traitor looking like a good guy. If you
believe that because of one character an entire clan deserved to die then you do not grasp the background
and mentality of battletech. Either way the point is if you were under Paul Moon, then yes you were treat like
shit if you were a Tukayyid survivor, if you were under units in Beta Galaxy then you were respected as
vetrans and warriors learned from your experience, under Alpha Galaxy you were treated no differently than
any other warrior who had failed in combat, it was a loss of honor but the loss of honor to the clan was much
more important than any personal failing. The character Star Colonel Paul Moon was another unbelievable
imagining from the IS writers to drive home that CSJ is evil and deserves to be exterminated...the four books
before "Sword and Fire", Exodus Road, Grave Covenant, The Hunters, and Freebrith are all just the writers
trying to convince old Battletech die-hards, like myself and many others, that a faction can be truely evil and
deserves to be exterminated, and that the ones doing it were truely on the righteous path. Sorry not buying
it, not only was it MY Clan, but no faction in Battletech is white as snow...ever.


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Re: Clan society
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2011, 03:45:40 PM »
Adding another fact about Wolves regarding Tukkayid:

Not only had the Wolves have Ulric Kerensky as their Khan, no, they also were able to field not only the "Black Widow", Natasha Kerensky herself, but also newblooded Phelan , the adopted Spheroid.
These 3 people have decided the course for Clan Wolf on Tukkayid by having insight not only in Anastasius Focht´s thinking, but the general tactial modus operandi of the IS and thus enabling them to have ammosupplies, repair points and Mechvariants for long battles throughout the attacking Galaxies supporting their endeavour.

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Offline ~SJ~ Amarus

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2011, 04:07:55 PM »
Adding another fact about Wolves regarding Tukkayid:

Not only had the Wolves have Ulric Kerensky as their Khan, no, they also were able to field not only the "Black Widow", Natasha Kerensky herself, but also newblooded Phelan , the adopted Spheroid.
These 3 people have decided the course for Clan Wolf on Tukkayid by having insight not only in Anastasius Focht´s thinking, but the general tactial modus operandi of the IS and thus enabling them to have ammosupplies, repair points and Mechvariants for long battles throughout the attacking Galaxies supporting their endeavour.

Absolutely and utterly correct!

I wish I could say that had the Smoke Jaguars had this information that they would have had a better chance but I do not beleive they would have changed their overall strategy (Headhunter force confuses enemy, assault clusters bring down the hammer) Although they would have brought less ammo dependent variants of their omnimechs, and had they known Anastasius Focht´s thinking they may have countered him better.  Overall I think the ammo thing and mad rushes are what killed most of my fellow warriors. Rushing into the Djinu Swamp was a terrible idea(get bogged down so easily)...esspecially when the comguard knew it inside and out. And many forces reported running out of ammunition about halfway through the fighting, making them either combat ineffective or reducing their combat effectivness by over 50%. Had the Jaguars stocked up on energy based weapons I believe that the outcome of many engagements would have been markedly different, but as for tactical earrors, wellwho knows how they might have gone, or even if they would ahve happened if the Jaguars been better equipt for this compaign.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2011, 04:12:57 PM by ~SJ~ Amarus »


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Re: Clan society
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2011, 04:34:43 PM »
As the utter warriors the Smoke Jaguars are, I doubt they would have ignored such an information and would have changed their tactics according to the enemies without even need to think twice about it, sending out mentioned Headhunter-Units and real fast Galaxies of mostly energy-based Mechs.
It would have been like the impact of man-made lightning that would have struck the ComStar Forces, flinging them out of the way of the rapidly and disciplined advancing Jaguars.
It would have been glory in the name of the Clan.
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Offline CGB [CoffiNail]

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2011, 06:44:14 PM »
Let us have a group MWLL project of an alternative timeline to the BT world.


Offline ~SJ~ Amarus

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2011, 07:27:18 PM »
As the utter warriors the Smoke Jaguars are, I doubt they would have ignored such an information and would have changed their tactics according to the enemies without even need to think twice about it, sending out mentioned Headhunter-Units and real fast Galaxies of mostly energy-based Mechs.
It would have been like the impact of man-made lightning that would have struck the ComStar Forces, flinging them out of the way of the rapidly and disciplined advancing Jaguars.
It would have been glory in the name of the Clan.

I can most certainly see that happening...what I thought that would not change was the strict adherence to Zellbringen, Comguard forces would most certainly exploit this viciously.

But otherwise yes you are correct the headhunters would rip through the officers of the Comguard units and the assault clusters would hammer the confused and scattered remains.


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Offline Kalon

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2011, 04:24:42 AM »
Quote
Neg, the Jaguar's are very well thought out, traditional and warrior minded. If you actually look at how the Jaguar's bid and fought at Tukayyid then you will realize that it makes perfect sense for who they were as a Clan.

In the Clan honor system, to bid the lowest and win is the most honor, also whoever bids the lowest lands first and has the honor of first blood. Therefore Jaguar's, steeped in tradition, bid the lowest (Jaguar's are known as ruthless bidders) because they wanted the honor of first to land. The Jaguar's outfitted their forces in traditional clan style (which did not afford for a long protracted campaign, like the Comguards had planned) and fought in traditional clan manner (they adhered to Zellbringen even when other clans called a grand melee when Zellbringen was broken by Comguard units.)  The Clans went into this battle with no knowledge of Comguard forces, when the Comguards had every shred of knowledge that anyone could have on the clans, after all they had been watching them for three years straight.

Point is, Jaguar's are not anything close to "LEROY JENKINS!!!!!", they are traditional clan warriors, plan as such, fight as such, and when they have been commited to battle are the most ruthless and savage of all of the clans. But until they are commited, they do have their wits about them, in fact they are quite cunning.

ROFLMAO you can pass that off on people who know nothing about Battletech or have never read a single book but not me. EVERY single clan has the same view as me. Jaguars are brave but that's it. They are reckless, excessively aggressive, much brawn but little brain. They believe if you fight hard enough you will win. They care little for strategy & I challenge you to prove otherwise.

Actually let us use your "explanation" but first let me give you some canon as a preamble:

Quote
All praise the art of batchall and bidding
For it proves our love of peace and tradition.
-- The Remembrance (Clan Wolf), Passage 118, Verse 3, Lines 11-12

Bidding is an ART. It is involves strategy, long term thinking. It is like chess, it is simulated battle. You must think of your moves & not just the move you are about to make but two or three moves ahead while at the same time considering the possible counter of the enemy & countering his counter. A bid would differ based on the planet in question, most importantly terrain e.g. a reduction of aerospace fighters where there is a lot of brush & foliage as opposed to increasing them on a planet that is basically a desert.

You and I are bidding. We both have a trinary of Mechs, Elementals & aerospace fighters at our disposal. Whoever bids lower wins true but bidding is a process. I start to bid but since you are a Jaguar you decide to bid lowest to win. 1 Star of Mechs, 1 Star of Elementals (since Osis was one) & no fighters. No thought was given to the terrain, the outline of the areas where fighting might be heaviest etc. just bid low & win. Please who are you trying to fool? Yes you have won the right to fight but because there was little thought put into it you lose & there is nothing more dishonorable than defeat. I can't recall now but there is a book where a high ranking officer told his subordinates he would rather they lost a small bit of their personal honor if things get tight & call down the troops available from the original bid rather than have the entire clan lose honor by a defeat. If I remember the title I will edit the post & add it.

 Did you mention HONOR? As a Jaguar I thought your keyboard would malfunction when you tried to type that word. Let us not forget that due to the bumbling of the Jaguars, Prince Hohiro escaped & what did they do? Carpet bombed the place oh & by the way it wasn't even like it was a military installation, it was civilians; an act which was so dishonorable that ALL the other clans forswore using orbital bombardment in the campaign from that time forward. Again you can't fool people who have read the books. I give you an A for effort though.

LEEEEERRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYY JEEEEEEENNNNNNNNKKKKKKKIIIIIIIIIINNNNSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 05:06:02 AM by Kalon »

Offline Cygma

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2011, 10:51:02 AM »
I always thought Wolves where known neglecting all rules and strategy and balancing that by being ... badass.
Tukayyid actually shows just that, they are (where) really thinking out of the box when they where wardens, but where still very potent in battle.
The abscence of methodic or use of the "planned" way was actually what enabled them to stay very flexible and powerfull.
Euh, wait... thinking outside the box and not using the same old strategies over and over again doesn't imply not using strategies. It just means being more flexible when it comes to choosing strategies and and not being afraid to introduce new ones.
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Offline Xarg Talasko

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2011, 01:03:52 PM »
Quote
Neg, the Jaguar's are very well thought out, traditional and warrior minded. If you actually look at how the Jaguar's bid and fought at Tukayyid then you will realize that it makes perfect sense for who they were as a Clan.

In the Clan honor system, to bid the lowest and win is the most honor, also whoever bids the lowest lands first and has the honor of first blood. Therefore Jaguar's, steeped in tradition, bid the lowest (Jaguar's are known as ruthless bidders) because they wanted the honor of first to land. The Jaguar's outfitted their forces in traditional clan style (which did not afford for a long protracted campaign, like the Comguards had planned) and fought in traditional clan manner (they adhered to Zellbringen even when other clans called a grand melee when Zellbringen was broken by Comguard units.)  The Clans went into this battle with no knowledge of Comguard forces, when the Comguards had every shred of knowledge that anyone could have on the clans, after all they had been watching them for three years straight.

Point is, Jaguar's are not anything close to "LEROY JENKINS!!!!!", they are traditional clan warriors, plan as such, fight as such, and when they have been commited to battle are the most ruthless and savage of all of the clans. But until they are commited, they do have their wits about them, in fact they are quite cunning.

ROFLMAO you can pass that off on people who know nothing about Battletech or have never read a single book but not me. EVERY single clan has the same view as me. Jaguars are brave but that's it. They are reckless, excessively aggressive, much brawn but little brain. They believe if you fight hard enough you will win. They care little for strategy & I challenge you to prove otherwise.

Actually let us use your "explanation" but first let me give you some canon as a preamble:

Quote
All praise the art of batchall and bidding
For it proves our love of peace and tradition.
-- The Remembrance (Clan Wolf), Passage 118, Verse 3, Lines 11-12

Bidding is an ART. It is involves strategy, long term thinking. It is like chess, it is simulated battle. You must think of your moves & not just the move you are about to make but two or three moves ahead while at the same time considering the possible counter of the enemy & countering his counter. A bid would differ based on the planet in question, most importantly terrain e.g. a reduction of aerospace fighters where there is a lot of brush & foliage as opposed to increasing them on a planet that is basically a desert.

You and I are bidding. We both have a trinary of Mechs, Elementals & aerospace fighters at our disposal. Whoever bids lower wins true but bidding is a process. I start to bid but since you are a Jaguar you decide to bid lowest to win. 1 Star of Mechs, 1 Star of Elementals (since Osis was one) & no fighters. No thought was given to the terrain, the outline of the areas where fighting might be heaviest etc. just bid low & win. Please who are you trying to fool? Yes you have won the right to fight but because there was little thought put into it you lose & there is nothing more dishonorable than defeat. I can't recall now but there is a book where a high ranking officer told his subordinates he would rather they lost a small bit of their personal honor if things get tight & call down the troops available from the original bid rather than have the entire clan lose honor by a defeat. If I remember the title I will edit the post & add it.

 Did you mention HONOR? As a Jaguar I thought your keyboard would malfunction when you tried to type that word. Let us not forget that due to the bumbling of the Jaguars, Prince Hohiro escaped & what did they do? Carpet bombed the place oh & by the way it wasn't even like it was a military installation, it was civilians; an act which was so dishonorable that ALL the other clans forswore using orbital bombardment in the campaign from that time forward. Again you can't fool people who have read the books. I give you an A for effort though.

LEEEEERRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYY JEEEEEEENNNNNNNNKKKKKKKIIIIIIIIIINNNNSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The other Clans only bid away their WarShips because Phelan Kell told Ulric that bidding away HIS WarShips would gaurantee him the lowest bid to take a planet (which it did). Hard to go below ANY bid Ulric could make while retaining a WarShip.

Y'know, while we're on the 'lets get our facts straight' bender.


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Offline Kalon

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2011, 01:29:46 PM »
Quote
The other Clans only bid away their WarShips because Phelan Kell told Ulric that bidding away HIS WarShips would gaurantee him the lowest bid to take a planet (which it did). Hard to go below ANY bid Ulric could make while retaining a WarShip.

Y'know, while we're on the 'lets get our facts straight' bender.

Oh you want to get facts straight? Phelan had his reasons for not wanting the clans to use orbital bombardment true but what you are aiming at is ridiculous.

1. Phelan was a freeborn. If someone was to ask Ulric why he decided not to use orbital bombardment & he said the freeborn told me it would make me look good, they would laugh at him.

2. Ulric was a Warden by him doing that, the Crusaders should have done the opposite. Oh maybe you Wardens have gone soft from the horror of war blah blah blah or something to that effect would have been said. ALL the other clans, Warden AND Crusader, forswore in tandem.

3. Clan A - bids away their warships. Clan B bids away their warships. Bidding goes on. It became standard practice to do away with warships after Ulric initiated it. After that it was never a case of "Oh no they have bid away their Warships, we have lost!" Try again.

The Clans equated Ulric foreswearing oribtial bombardment as a direct result of the Smoke Jaguar's use of it on Turtle Bay & they ALL agreed it was dishonorable & went along with Ulric. As I said try it on someone who hasn't read the books.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 01:40:50 PM by Kalon »