Author Topic: Clan society  (Read 27262 times)

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Offline [CW]Outlaw

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2011, 08:42:24 AM »
Interesting, first time hearing about it honestly. Either way sounds like something that would vary from clan to clan.
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Offline ~SJ~ Amarus

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2011, 04:39:17 PM »
For the lower castes a lot of it depends on the Clan. The Warrior caste of Smoke Jaguar, and Jade Falcons were very hostile towards lower caste/freeborn members of their clans however the Jade Falcons could see their importance to the clan where as the Smoke Jaguars did not. On the opposite side of the spectrum you have Ghost Bear and Diamond Sharks who have a bit more kinship with the lower castes; For the most part however the civilians are treated similarly to the way they are in the rest of the Innersphere with varying degrees. Some clans the inter-caste bonds are stronger, others are weaker.

All warrior castes have a sense of superiority over the lower castes. I imagine that a short life, few pleasures, high stress, fighting so others do not have to, and adhering to a strict honor code does afford you some privileges. It is a fact that most civilian castes look upon true-born "superiority" almost as someone would ignore a dog, it is true there are some warriors who took it to an extreme but as a whole all warrior castes treat lower castes with indifference. Civilians have great respect for the warriors, and especially in Clan
Smoke Jaguar's case are shocked and distraught when the warriors are defeated. Though the Clan Smoke Jaguar, among others, did not allow freeborns into their touman that does not mean that they were any different in their treatment of lower castes. What you see as overall oppression, perhaps in the cleanliness and order of Lootera, was actually just a different culture than other clans. The Smoke Jaguar's are all about order and hierarchy, what can you do for the clan.  Things that would be praised in other clans are expected as normal behavior in Clan Smoke Jaguar, it has a very high expectation of excellence.


As for the Falcon's it is similar to the Jaguar's except culture differed, individual excellence was praised and freeborns has a much less warrior-like lifestyle. If you have not read Falcon Rising, you should. The techs had their own bars and corner of town that the warriors left them alone to do as they liked, that does not sound like oppression to me. In fact in all clan cities their is a quarter where all are welcome, yes even the warrior quarter, but all must obey the rules of that caste as you are in it. The warrior quarter obviously had more monuments and a higher demand for respect and disciple.

The idea you have that the clans oppressed their people could not be further from the truth. It is a simple numbers game... because .01% of a population cannot (even with the amount of weapons the warriors had) control the billions in the other 99.99%. Even more, if the warriors piss off the techs and scientists, well the techs have been known to get back at warriors by 'messing up' on upgrades and repairs, and the warriors REALLY do not want to piss off the scientists because they research all of their new toys and how the next generation of warriors will act.  Yes each caste has it's own type of power, and they are all interdependent, yes the warriors are the pinnacle, but they give up a lot to be there...the reason why we all think they have it so easy is because of our overly romanticized view of war.


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Offline =CJW= Zone Warden (W)

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2011, 06:14:34 PM »
I've not read too much into the Clan societies but I always had my own (read: MY OWN) interpretation which is possibly far from what the Clans actually are. It's always been about the culture for me as opposed to how the Clans hierarchy is laid out and such. I have a vivid imagination so I like to envision all that I read and create how a character looks exactly for me the first time I read of them, it helps things to play out as a film reel in my head rather than just a block of fictional text. This is my interpretative vision, not from the established canon.

From the days of playing MW2 I've always envisioned the Clans to be very tribal in nature, very reminiscent of their namesakes. Clan Wolf warriors have always been rooted thoroughly in my mind as brooding burly warriors with flame red or braided blonde hair, piercing blue eyes and favouring knotted tattoos and copious amounts of alcohol. I had the idea that both Wolf and Ghost Bear, the latter being very much more Norse in nature, are modelled after our own Celtic societies from history. I see them regaling younger warriors with great sagas about their Khans and Star Captains around a cloistered fire, built in the centre of their ring of powered down 'Mechs on some world they were conquering, all sharing a cask of ale. I see their culture based in the prowess of their warriors, much in the way of the old world but the warriors wouldn't be warriors without the lower castes. It is the common people who pave the way to war after all and I see the Wolves venerating this, so that the Warriors are more mingled with their common brethren as opposed to being aloof.

I see Clan Jade Falcon to be very oriental in nature, almost entirely opposite of the rustic, raw power of the Wolves or the Ghost Bears. I see them as very defined people, slim and physically fit, built for stamina, not brawn unlike the Wolves. I see a healthy mix of the Samurai ethos mixing through their society, how the Warriors are the be all and end all, their word is law for they are the dominant caste of the society. The others are well provided for by their warriors and in this the warriors are afforded their arrogance and high station. I see them as very serious people, preferable to symmetry and the philosophies of war rather than the loud and brawl prone Wolves. I see great temples on their worlds, with fluted roofs and statues of sweeping Falcons made from jade stone. I see their culture as a very isolated and believing utterly that their way is law, above all.

I see Clan Smoke Jaguar as being people of dusky skin, dark hairs and serious temperament. Based a lot on the old Aztec and Mayan civilisations of our history. I see them as being honour bound to the point that it dictates every action in their lives, even more so than Jade Falcon. That a Warriors words never come lightly for they will be carried out to the literal letter. I see the Warriors as quiet, hard people, their achievements festooned upon their body and their 'Mechs in the forms of jewellery and tribal markings, almost like the Inca Hieroglyphs. Telling an entire story just with one image. I see the warriors not as aloof like the Jade Falcon, or the humanitarians of the Wolves. I see the Smoke Jaguar warriors to be almost godlike, completely separate from their nation but in no way out of harmony with their civilisation. I see them almost like the Sumo of Japan, they are regarded with such super human idol-ism and admiration simply for their way of life but they aren't held above the common man in any superior form. They are to be respected, possibly even admired but never feared for they are just as much a part of your world as you are of theirs. I see the Smoke Jaguar warriors bringing new worlds for the people, for the Clan, not for their Khan or the view of the Star League.

I have skewered images of the other Clans as well, which will shape the more I read into the various source books and combat doctrines and what not.

It's why I see Clan Jade Wolf as the bastard culture crash of Falcon and Wolf. I see the warriors striving to greater feats to out shine their fellow warriors from the old Clans. I see them as young, rash, enthusiastic fighters holding aloft the banners of their failed fathers. Fighting the cause so many have forgotten. Almost like a head strong group of young knights pushing past the seasoned veterans for their bitter taste of the glory.

I've been very tempted to start writing my own fan fiction on the journey of Clan Jade Wolf and its exploits, based on the league drop 'Battle for the Inner Sphere' and the more recent friendly drop with the Vegan Rangers. This is the kind of examples I'll be using to describe the warriors of Clan Jade Wolf and their interactions with the other Clans and the Inner Sphere houses and units.

As I said though, this is my view on the culture of the Clans, not exactly their doctrine or how they actually work. :)
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Offline [IPA] Thalamus

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2011, 08:12:44 PM »
Are civilian clanners allowed to freely choose their careers and "pursue their happiness" (maybe bridging castes, e.g. laborer inventing something and then distributing it, effectively turned into merchant/tech), may they go on vacation, leave their homeplanet etc.?
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Offline Kelmola

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2011, 09:20:10 PM »
I've not read too much into the Clan societies but I always had my own (read: MY OWN) interpretation which is possibly far from what the Clans actually are.

I have skewered images of the other Clans as well, which will shape the more I read into the various source books and combat doctrines and what not.
Would be interested in reading those other as well, your insights were really interesting. :) Here are some of mine, guaranteed to be stereotypical and skewed ;)

Re Ghost Bear, I am sooooo biased but as a Finn their entire cult of bear sounds more than slightly familiar (especially considering their already strong Nordic vibes)... in that the bear was the totem animal of Finns of old (and still is for some Siberian Finno-Ugric tribes). The hunting of a bear (compare to the "Clawing" of CGB) was a holy ritual and the passing of such a great beast was celebrated afterwards with a feast to honour the bear. You were not supposed to even say aloud the name of bear, which is why there are still several Finnish words all meaning "bear": karhu (the formal version in modern times), otso, nalle, kontio, mesikämmen ("nectar palm"), the archaic metsän omena ("apple of the forest" - the shamanistic mushrooms must have been some good stuff) or metsän kuningas ("king of the forest") not being used but still remembered, and the original word totally forgotten (because you were not supposed to say it, duh).

Re Wolves, once you mentioned drinking I can't get rid of the stereotypical image of Russians, especially since half their notable individuals seem to have been of the Kerensky bloodline. Also, when the Clan fluff was originally written, the Soviet Union had not collapsed (and stayed alive in the "future history"), so in my biased view, this heritage would explain the perceived "solidarity" within the clan.

---

As for my tabletop Clan, the Diamond Sharks, I tend to view them as the British Empire of old among the Clans. They are decidedly non-tribal in their affairs, closer to being a nation. I would imagine them trying to maintain a "civilized" face at all times. While the "nobles" might view themselves above the "commoners", neither would seriously want to insult the other, apart from some friendly snickering, jokes and the like. The idea of letting non-warrior castes vote on critical matters (such as the changing of the name from Sea Fox) would also support this image, as England and later Britain was essentially a constitutional monarchy in a time of absolute monarchies, and the kings often sough popular support for their endeavours. They would rather trade than fight, because fighting is rather rude, but when they do fight, the warriors enjoy it much in the same spirit as a labourer would enjoy a good scuffle in a pub. Their strength is in their navy, merchant marine, and explorers (these are not always distinguishable). As a result, the citizens can use their work credit on a myriad of exotic items from faraway worlds. The architecture would be decidedly Gothic with all sorts of unnecessary ornaments, and the clothing and everyday items decidedly elegant. The Clan's riches are used to support science and engineering, allowing the CDS to maintain a technological edge as well as commercial, and the warrior caste would definitely be proud of their scientists because of this. The Chatterweb's historical equivalent (where we are discussing now) was invented by a Briton, and this ties well into the image of the CDS also eagerly building roads, maglev lines, space stations and the like - trade and information must be able to travel in order to flourish. While the other Clans would want to invade the Inner Sphere for ideological reasons, CDS saw it in a more pragmatical way; in the spirit of good old-fashioned colonialism, they would sell Clan-manufactured products to the IS worlds, while getting raw materials from there.

Offline SquareSphere

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2011, 11:41:01 PM »
all this lore talk make pretty freaking sad we never got to have the home clans fleshed out :/  There was so much potential story that we never got to explore.


Offline [CW]Outlaw

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2011, 01:27:08 AM »
Not all are opressive, however the Smoke Jaguars have been known to kill off civilian populations, such as the case with Turtle Bay, not to mention their own citizens during a famine on Londerholm in 2912, and in Exodus Road the mention of their military leveling a city for a few people supporting a resistance movement. Bear in mind that not only did they kill those that actually did support the resistance movement, they killed the innocents including children, which is the main event that culminated in Trent defecting.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 01:40:51 AM by {SR}Outlaw »
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Offline SquareSphere

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2011, 09:41:49 PM »
Trent is not a saint.  Turtle Bay is a much more complex than just "rawr angry clanners hate city". 

Offline Kelmola

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2011, 09:59:17 PM »
Not to mention that in order to justify Trent's defection, Paul Moon was written to be the single most one-dimensional operatic villain in BTU since, well, Katherine Steiner-Davion... ::)

I won't even start about the logic of bribing a Clanner (knowing their "mating habits") with the promise of "getting some" after a couple of years' wait - in exchange for providing the coordinates of an invasion route into his people's unguarded rear areas, but hey, that's Twilight of the Clans for you.

Offline ~SJ~ Amarus

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2011, 05:33:35 PM »
Are civilian clanners allowed to freely choose their careers and "pursue their happiness" (maybe bridging castes, e.g. laborer inventing something and then distributing it, effectively turned into merchant/tech), may they go on vacation, leave their homeplanet etc.?

Yes they can, it is based upon aptitude. If you are a brain you can be a scientist or tech, if you are artistic (yes each clan has artists) it is considered laborer but it is supported. You can do what you will, even apply for freeborn warrior but for everything you must prove that you can do the job well.

Not to mention that in order to justify Trent's defection, Paul Moon was written to be the single most one-dimensional operatic villain in BTU since, well, Katherine Steiner-Davion... ::)

I won't even start about the logic of bribing a Clanner (knowing their "mating habits") with the promise of "getting some" after a couple of years' wait - in exchange for providing the coordinates of an invasion route into his people's unguarded rear areas, but hey, that's Twilight of the Clans for you.

glad to see some people could see how 'un-shades of grey' this series was, it pretty much had to take everything you love out of battletech except for the mechs to make it work. Since when was the ever one super evil faction, or one super good faction. They make trent out to be this tortured soul, and Paul Moon to be satan, and victor to be God himself, Arianna Winson was Joan of Arc, and Russou Howell was a drunken lunatic, IlKhan Lincoln Osis (not my favorite Jaguar) had his head up his ass the whole time, and the poor units of the inner sphere just trying to wipe out a civilization were made to look like an oppressed people when they were getting their collective asses ahanded to them...most pitiful writing in the entire BT universe.


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Offline CGB [CoffiNail]

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2011, 06:35:39 PM »
Are civilian clanners allowed to freely choose their careers and "pursue their happiness" (maybe bridging castes, e.g. laborer inventing something and then distributing it, effectively turned into merchant/tech), may they go on vacation, leave their homeplanet etc.?

Yes they can, it is based upon aptitude. If you are a brain you can be a scientist or tech, if you are artistic (yes each clan has artists) it is considered laborer but it is supported. You can do what you will, even apply for freeborn warrior but for everything you must prove that you can do the job well.

Not to mention that in order to justify Trent's defection, Paul Moon was written to be the single most one-dimensional operatic villain in BTU since, well, Katherine Steiner-Davion... ::)

I won't even start about the logic of bribing a Clanner (knowing their "mating habits") with the promise of "getting some" after a couple of years' wait - in exchange for providing the coordinates of an invasion route into his people's unguarded rear areas, but hey, that's Twilight of the Clans for you.

glad to see some people could see how 'un-shades of grey' this series was, it pretty much had to take everything you love out of battletech except for the mechs to make it work. Since when was the ever one super evil faction, or one super good faction. They make trent out to be this tortured soul, and Paul Moon to be satan, and victor to be God himself, Arianna Winson was Joan of Arc, and Russou Howell was a drunken lunatic, IlKhan Lincoln Osis (not my favorite Jaguar) had his head up his ass the whole time, and the poor units of the inner sphere just trying to wipe out a civilization were made to look like an oppressed people when they were getting their collective asses ahanded to them...most pitiful writing in the entire BT universe.


And this was my first novel in the BTU ;D


Offline shyrkonflex

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2011, 08:47:04 PM »
Really interesting stuff, Kelmola pretty much hit the nail in the head for the looks and feels of the different clans how I imagined them.
Wolves/Bears are all "fapp it, lets drink, shit on the rules and just overrunn anything with a loud battlecry" (closest to "normal :D") while Falcons are calculated and methodic etc. with the Jags being the epitome of warrior-style thinking.

Offline Kalon

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2011, 09:14:34 PM »
@ ~SJ~ Amarus  How dio you explain the Smoke Jaguars treament of Horse & his Trinary in Freebirth? Yes they were freeborn but they were warriors of Jade Falcon.

Offline shyrkonflex

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2011, 09:18:09 PM »
Was it all that bad ?
I thought they were imprisonated and then forced to do labourer tasks, pretty close to being bondsmen.
I don't know if that violates clan rules, but it was obvious that these bitter second-line forces wouldn't party with JF's dropping in their defense zone.
(Leaving out the fact that they shot them down in a ... dishonorable way to say the least).

Offline Xarg Talasko

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Re: Clan society
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2011, 09:41:35 PM »
@ ~SJ~ Amarus  How dio you explain the Smoke Jaguars treament of Horse & his Trinary in Freebirth? Yes they were freeborn but they were warriors of Jade Falcon.

Woah there fella, you mean Russou Howell's treatment of the Falcons. You'll recall from the novel, that while the other Jags were pretty unhappy about the idea of Horse becoming a Jaguar Warrior, they were also unhappy with all the bizarre bullshit hoops Howell was creating for everyone to jump through, probably because he was drunk as shit the entire time.

Let's also temper that with some knowledge about Russou Howell. He's cruisin along with Trent, watching Paul Moon shit all over his friend at every opportunity for no legit reason, then he believes his friend was killed by invading IS troops (the extraction of Trent to ComStar), suddenly Moon jams him into a rigged Trial of Bloodright, he pretty much admits he thinks it was fixed and he doesn't deserve the bloodname, not only that, but right after winning the name, Moon sends him packing back to Huntress to spend the rest of his days wasting away leading a solahma garrison.

Feeling like something is horribly wrong and you got thrown away + drunk every day = Horse being treated like cowdung.


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