Aero- One hit kills

[Come and See]

About problems with SRM Sulla, AC/LBX, Lasers... If you suffer ground fire or get one-shot with LBX, then YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG. Sulla prime is an interceptor, not fighter-bomber. Laser variant (Sulla A) is made for long-range combat. Usual flying lower then 600 meters is a mistake for it. Being One-shotted is a problem only for those, who can one-shot or nearly so (FBomb, LBX, Tbolts in some cases).

I don't see how it is necessarily your fault for being hit by ground fire as long as you don't do anything to try and avoid it. What I mean is don't just fly straight while getting shot and not even make any attempts to try and avoid it.

Also, being under 600 meters is a necessary for a lot of the variants and even for some of the long range variants that need to shoot accurately. You have to remember that you are moving at 300 km/h so you cover ground fast.

[=CJW= Rad Hanzo]

Many of the times I survive being pooped on by the birds I just laugh out my merryment about surviving, maybe turn around for reps or just hit the wall of enemas ahead.

LEEEEEEERRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY !
Maybe some of us guys should get tactics and strategies out of their heads ,go full force-berzerk once again and RAMMMMMMMM (NO RAMMING LITERALLY MEANT) their Assets right into the heart of the fight^^

And, as already stated, getting bombed while standing still is your own fault xD

And another thing:
Lock, please.
This is no news in the ASF-West

[=KoS= Eldragon]

When an Aero takes a hit, it suffers screen shake, just like you do from a PPC or missiles.

I keep seeing this idiotic shit pop up time and again. Lets get this straight:

IT IS ALREADY IN!

Fly an aero, have something with UAC's shoot at you (And hit consistently), You will notice it slams your plane in the physics appropriate direction due to the facing the shots hit. Taking fire while on a strafing run plays merry hell with your aim. It -can- be compensated for but it makes aiming direct fire weapons just that more of a bitch. Hell, if you're doing something tricky (close to the ground/building/mech/other asf) at the time it can even cause you to crash by shoving you into an object, thereby giving you a suicide and the associated point loss.

The screen shake is only noticeable on the Shiva where it can be extremely hard just to line up which only hurts the LRM variant. On the Sulla it's so small and you move so fast that it doesn't interfere as much.

I do fly. And I can only agree with Come and See. If its in at all, its so small I don't notice it, ever.

When I fly my FPS drops to the 5-15 range. Perhaps that has something to do with it.

[Kelmola]

One tactic against divebombing ASF's (not just Fbomb run, but any attack that involves flying to altitude and dropping almost vertically down, as opposed to a low-level strafing run) that works for me is to run towards them as they are making their dive. If they are forced to steepen the dive too much, they risk running into ground before they can pull out or flying into their own blast. If they want to avoid that, they will have to abort the run or drop the bomb from higher up (increasing the chance of a miss especially if you do not run in a straight line). Of course, this does not work every time, and requires that you are in a relatively fast asset and already moving, but it has saved me often enough that I now try to do it as a default when a plane is diving towards me.

[ELH_Vivicector]

I don't see how it is necessarily your fault for being hit by ground fire as long as you don't do anything to try and avoid it. What I mean is don't just fly straight while getting shot and not even make any attempts to try and avoid it.

Also, being under 600 meters is a necessary for a lot of the variants and even for some of the long range variants that need to shoot accurately. You have to remember that you are moving at 300 km/h so you cover ground fast.

I'm not getting the first part of it, sorry. I was talking not about ground-fire, but one-shot kill. Only those, who can deal a lot of damage, must get close to the ground and, therefore, be exposed to ground fire. It's a standard high risk - high reward type of play. May be, the only exception is ATM Sulla. But this one is cheap and used in the beginning - no one-shots.

Many other assets (Like Sulla prime) are made for air combat and therefore should not be in reach of mechs with LBX20.

And usually, all ASF, that need to fly below 600m are also a high risk-high reward.

In Sulla A I am usually shooting and climbing up on about 850-800 m. 700 sometimes. In other cases I know, that I'm risking and not using my asset as intended.

[Come and See]

I'm not getting the first part of it, sorry. I was talking not about ground-fire, but one-shot kill. Only those, who can deal a lot of damage, must get close to the ground and, therefore, be exposed to ground fire. It's a standard high risk - high reward type of play. May be, the only exception is ATM Sulla. But this one is cheap and used in the beginning - no one-shots.

I mean I don't think its a fair assessment to say that if you go below x range that it's automatically a death sentence. Many of you probably see that I usually hug the ground because it's a defensive strategy I've learned to make it harder to be shot at from AA tanks.

Many other assets (Like Sulla prime) are made for air combat and therefore should not be in reach of mechs with LBX20.

Of course, but if you got nothing in the sky to shoot at usually you start shooting ground mechs out of boredom. Heh.

And usually, all ASF, that need to fly below 600m are also a high risk-high reward.

In Sulla A I am usually shooting and climbing up on about 850-800 m. 700 sometimes. In other cases I know, that I'm risking and not using my asset as intended.

If there's an anti-aircraft tank in the area then that strategy is basically useless because you're exposing yourself in the open and limiting how you can respond.

Now, I call the close-range variants "brawlers" because that's what they basically are. The high-risk reward doesn't seem to be fairly balanced in my opinion with the Shiva. Let me explain.

The LRM Shiva is the farthest ranged Shiva and has the least risk for its damage output. Yet, strangely it has the same armor as the "brawler" Shiva's. It's the same thing with the F-bomb Shiva which has the highest sheer damage output.

So basically we have ground attack Shiva's that have the same armor as the ranged Shiva's and with their short-range they get punished harshly by AA tanks because they don't have thick enough armor for their intended role.

The Sulla is a different scenario because it's a much smaller target, faster, and more maneuverable so it's easier to escape and to avoid damage. Depending on how heavy the AA is on the enemy team the Sulla is actually safer and better to use than the Shiva because the close-range ones flop over if you look at them funny with a Huit.

[=CJW=YalK]

Many of the times I survive being pooped on by the birds I just laugh out my merryment about surviving, maybe turn around for reps or just hit the wall of enemas ahead.

LEEEEEEERRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY !
Maybe some of us guys should get tactics and strategies out of their heads ,go full force-berzerk once again and RAMMMMMMMM (NO RAMMING LITERALLY MEANT) their Assets right into the heart of the fight^^

And, as already stated, getting bombed while standing still is your own fault xD

And another thing:
Lock, please.
This is no news in the ASF-West

Rad, I love ya Bro'sif but I gotta politely ask you to stfu 

I'd rather read tired old ASF threads, legging/arming threads, mod dictatorship threads and all manner of flaming than nothing at all....because until 0.5.0 comes out (please make it soon devs, so the forums will be interesting to read again at work) it'll be mighty quite around here without all those aforementioned....

So please, all of you....please stop asking for threads to be closed that are pointless...think of  the children

[LordHack]

As ASF-related threads go, this one is fluffy and soft as a kitten.


--- they do need to release tho (yeah, yeah, it's ready when it's ready, I know ), so I can figure out why I can't fly on Huntress (technical issues), but mech is basically fine.  I've already reinstalled, etc., afraid to jack with it too much more since I had it all nice and smooth until recently - for some unknown reason.  Maybe karma, who knows... lol...

[[CW]Aresye]

Got to agree with you LordHack, this thread is quite tame compared to previous ones.  Perhaps it's because of the position the devs have stated, and that stopped the die hard mech-only game crowd.

[Ishan]

I suggest to pass this post, as it does basically just adress two posts directed at me, which i felt they warranted an answer.

Wise choice, however despite the fact you registered in March 2010, you could clearly see Deathbane's frustration if you've seen every anti-ASF thread that's popped up since the mod was released.  Every week or two a new one pops up with the same complaints, the same suggestions, and the same ASF and anti-ASF forum dwellers shout the same opinions at eachother.  Perhaps if you were a bit more active on the forums you could see that, so don't think Deathbane is being the enemy here.

Not posting does not equal not active, i try to check the forum at least once a month. I consider it redunant to post stuff which has been posted a lot of times already. (And i am aware of the irony of this statment following my last)

Also, i do not believe Deathbane to be the enemy in this discussion, i consider the Mindset Deathbane approached this discussion to be the enemy. And i am aware of all the Threads about the problems with you flyboys. But thats just it. There wouldn't be as many threads if the community wouldn't perceive the current situation as a problem.

Yes, a majority of you flyboys, and i count you into that group, just like come and see or Lord Hack, hang out in the threads concerning what you guys do best. So yes, a lot of familiar faces do show up in these threads. That doesn't change that, from my perspective, there is no single person behind this threads, trying to push the issue, but a lot of different individuals who had a rather unsatisfactory gaming experiance, to the point of coming to this forum and post a solution to what they perceive to be a problem and killing their fun.

So in my opinion, taking a stance like "We ain't listening, it won't change" just frustrates me. In this special case enough to actually bother to write, albit... i probably should have posted that post and not deleted it in a fit of frustration and post what i did post.

Which i agree, was a waste of everyones time and my post count.

Exibit A.  You're basically accusing the Devs of being unable to make an impartial or correct judgment and ignoring evidence.  If you really didn't want to say a few words, why did you go ahead and make an unconstructive post.  Its called paralipsis, its a rhetorical technique, and in this case used to make an ad hominem attack.

Well, you are wrong there. I actually had written out a lengthy post, going on about how he can, speaking for the Devs in general, does fail to see how it is NOT working. It might be working as Intended, but its clearly not working for the players. I proceeded to give examples, in said non existant post, for which you can take my word for or not, trying to make my point. Going as far as becoming sidetracked and giving examples of other Developmentteams who decided to implent their vision over the outcry of their community against said decisions.

Well until, i actually reread Deathbanes statment a couple times over the course of my post and came to realize that whatever i would write, wouldn't change a damn thing. Which in turn lead to me deleting the whole thing and post what i posted.

So yes, the post was unconstructive, because there is no argument to be had here. I came to realize this, Deathbane made it quite clear, in my opinion, that no matter what we write or how good our examples and arguments would be, they won't change it.

Which in turn lead to a frustrated response on my part. Of course, since noone beside me, ever saw the lengthty post i kept typing before finally realizing the above, i understand how my post without any kind of knowledge of the cirumstances which lead to it, appears as something it is not. Or maybe it is, after all.

I have no problems with Deathbane, i do however have a problem with Devs and Dev-Teams who go against their community. It never worked out, in my experiance. Hence the frustration and the paralipsis. Though, in this case it was no paralipsis but a proslepsis.

And as final clarification, it was by no means meant as ad hominem. Deathbane wrote in a manner implying he wrote for all of the Dev Team, and thus my prolepsis can't really be considered ad hominem but rather be ad totum. It surely never meant to adress Deathbane as person, but the general stance of the Dev Team he claimed to represent.

[[CW]Aresye]

I'm not going to quote the entire wall of text for the thread's sake, so while I did read it in its entirety, I'm only going to quote select portions.

Yes, a majority of you flyboys, and i count you into that group, just like come and see or Lord Hack, hang out in the threads concerning what you guys do best. So yes, a lot of familiar faces do show up in these threads. That doesn't change that, from my perspective, there is no single person behind this threads, trying to push the issue, but a lot of different individuals who had a rather unsatisfactory gaming experiance, to the point of coming to this forum and post a solution to what they perceive to be a problem and killing their fun.

The biggest problem with aerospace, and the reason the devs state that it's working as intended, is the very nature of the asset.  We have low enough armor that we can't be overt about our attacks, and instead rely on the element of surprise if we hope to do any damage at all.  There are plenty of assets in the game that can destroy you in virtually one attack, but the fact that with ASF it comes out of nowhere makes it frustrating.  The only solution to this would be buffing our armor big time, and lowering our speed, both of which would degrade from the simulation of flying a fast ASF, and  make a lot of games look very goofy.  To put it simply, people are getting frustrated over the very nature of ASF, not a balance issue.

Well, you are wrong there. I actually had written out a lengthy post, going on about how he can, speaking for the Devs in general, does fail to see how it is NOT working. It might be working as Intended, but its clearly not working for the players. I proceeded to give examples, in said non existant post, for which you can take my word for or not, trying to make my point. Going as far as becoming sidetracked and giving examples of other Developmentteams who decided to implent their vision over the outcry of their community against said decisions.

My response will seem similar to the above, but one thing I want to touch on is that the majority of players in this mod don't mind ASF.  In fact, some players who originally were very anti-ASF played ASF, and realized that it's only a select few pilots who tend to cause an outcry.  Pilots like Come and See, Lord Hack, Iron Chef, and myself.  Most of the so-called "elite" pilots today have been flying air throughout the entirety of the mod, including the 0.2 era which we consider notorious because ASF and VTOLs were made paper thin, and it was nearly impossible to get a positive K/D ratio.  A lot of us who played during that time learned a lot about being sneaky, and getting in/out as fast as possible.  That's pretty much why we tend to appear out of thin air.

I've played against many vets who specialized in nothing but mech combat since the mod's release.  They can kill me insanely quick, and generally lead the scoreboards with an enormous amount of kills.  I've also played against many dedicated anti-air players, but you don't see me making angry threads because I'm cruising around low and get annihilated in one hit from a passive Shadowcat I didn't see.

...the rest...

Overall, your post seems to be about how the devs are wrong to ignore requests for changes because they have a certain vision for the project.  While that could be true in some cases, the ASF case isn't.

A little background on the anti-ASF arguments:
The original ones were about the TBolt Sulla in 0.1, but back then, it wasn't just the overpowered plane.  Many die-hard MW fans were simply angry at ASF because in their eyes, this was a mech game, for mechs only.  After a multitude of balance changes, the ASF balance has been tweaked closer and closer to perfection.  As of right now, the only pilots who pose a problem and inspire threads like these, are good pilots who've been flying for over a year.  Every now and then a rookie pilot may get lucky, but generally they get swatted out of the sky fairly quickly.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, good players will dominate, no matter what asset they specialize in.  [CW] Errodien is one of the deadliest dedicated BA players out there, constantly appearing at the top of the score board with lots of kills.  Invictus is absolutely terrifying in a mech.  I've never played against Come and See, but Lord Hack is one of the best ASF pilots I know, regardless of what config he chooses.  The problem comes when a pilot gets good enough to seem like he appears out of thin air, delivers a devastating attack, and disappears just as quickly.  This isn't a broken game mechanic.  It's using the inherent strengths of ASF while limiting it's weakness (low armor).  A few players don't like this simple fact, hense this thread.  We as pilots get annoyed at these types of threads, because it appears the one tactic we've found to stay alive and actually get a FEW kills makes a few people butthurt and start saying things about unfair balance, etc.

Regarding the overall balance, even in the 0.2 era the very best pilots were still demolishing the scoreboards.  It doesn't really matter what changes the devs make, because we will simply adapt and overcome, unlike the ASF haters who refuse to practice and specialize in anti-ASF tactics, and prefer to stand still and rage about it on the forums when we target them.

[ELH_Vivicector]

I mean I don't think its a fair assessment to say that if you go below x range that it's automatically a death sentence. Many of you probably see that I usually hug the ground because it's a defensive strategy I've learned to make it harder to be shot at from AA tanks.

It is not a death sentence. It is actual for long-range units and the usual flying, not evasive maneuvers on low distance ASF. What are you talking about is for FBomb, TBolt, etc. I was talking about a high-alt flying for long range ASFs. We are both right =) 

Of course, but if you got nothing in the sky to shoot at usually you start shooting ground mechs out of boredom. Heh.

Yep. But then you do understand, that this is not a role of Sulla prime and it is useless to complain that it is bad for Air-to-Ground attacks.

If there's an anti-aircraft tank in the area then that strategy is basically useless because you're exposing yourself in the open and limiting how you can respond.

You are right. Partly. Point is that AA tank should be really close to my target to do anything. When I an diving from 1km to 900m for a shot, AA tank must be within 300m of the target and being able to spot me. Even than... 800-900 m is too big distance to shoot precisely on a quick target.

Even if they have too many AA or one, but too good... Usually, I can wait for them to make a mistake. Once one of them will separate from the others. Or their AA will be destroyed by our forces and I can come into play. Before then - shooting enemy ASFs. If I can't wait to shoot someone, then I may use rocks, mountains and so on as cover. It is also a high-range, medium-alt attack from about 600-700 m. Just a window of engagement for enemy AA becomes too small.

Now, I call the close-range variants "brawlers" because that's what they basically are. The high-risk reward doesn't seem to be fairly balanced in my opinion with the Shiva. Let me explain. ...

LRM Shiva is not so good - many of it's own drawbacks. It takes a hell lot of time to lock on a target (they are all passive usually), and while you are locking on, you are just an easy target. Running active on this time doesn't help. + LRMs are missing easily.