Author Topic: 1v1 scoring and rules questions  (Read 7109 times)

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Offline xDeityx

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Re: 1v1 scoring and rules questions
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2011, 06:25:50 PM »
That's what my first thought was - the sorting was a little funky on a new website, no big deal.  But then 420 scared me with that response by indicating that there might be any advantage whatsoever to signing up early.
"Out of every 100 men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the One, One is a Warrior, and He will bring the others back." --  Heraclitus

Offline ~SJ~ Tajin Nevversan

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Re: 1v1 scoring and rules questions
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2011, 06:27:56 PM »
Hum I'd usually put people that are new on rank 0 (either the end of the ladder or not shown at all) then only start ranking them once the have had their first fight.

Everything else makes little or no sense to me.


Easiest way to do it would be to sort it by the number of wins first, before sorting by the win/loose ratio. The same thing works when using a point system that distributes a variable amount of points based on the rank of the opponent and based on how often you've fought him already.

Something like that.

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Offline Tacticus

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Re: 1v1 scoring and rules questions
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2011, 06:55:54 PM »
The league is a classic ladder. You move up by winning when you challenge and you don't move up by winning the defense of your position. Win/Loss record has nothing to do with your rank in the ladder. I believe you move up 50% of the way to the person you challenged if you win and you can challenge a certain amount of ranks up.

I will confirm the rules in this regard, but that is how people that have not played are still above people that have played and won. That all evens out as the ladder has time to progress.


Offline 4204ME

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Re: 1v1 scoring and rules questions
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2011, 10:05:26 PM »
All ladders I am aware of give the first people to join the higher postion. New joiners start at the bottom. There will be a reset in about a month. When this occurs the first people to join will be on top. I will see if we have a shuffle feature however as I already noted this system is a "standard" that has been around longer than the internet.

Offline CHH Deathshade

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Re: 1v1 scoring and rules questions
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2011, 02:40:07 AM »
The scoring is changing to a basic 1 for win and zero for loss. Since this is a ladder system based on activity and not score, it will be set to match that. I have made these changes and will remove the additional stats on the player pages. I apologize for this mix up as it was some code adds I thought could be used but see this as a better option as a ladder system is so much better than the old FCL set. There were just way too many problems cropping up from that  FCL system whereas this traditional ladder system has been tried and tested thoroughly.

Please let me know if you see any other problems with future reporting. I will be running more tests this weekend on the other small ladders.

Offline MerfMerf

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Re: 1v1 scoring and rules questions
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2011, 10:16:07 AM »
How will that ever "even out"?
Say a ladder start at time X and sign up start at time X-10 then at time point X there will still be those that need to win a great many matches only to get up to equal footing with the guy skilled at having much free time and a quick connection.

If you want this to even out you would have to have quite a bit of number of matches played, and the more joiners you have the more matches will have to be played in order to even it out (and by evening it out I simply mean making the extra matches the ones at the bottom have to play a small part of the total number of matches played anyway).

As far as it being a standard, could you please cite some that use it so I can look up what sort of time frame they run over, how many participants they have and what the frequency of matches are? Genuinely interested to see what sort of competition this is geared towards. From what I see it this is something that is more suited to long "seasons", seeing as this does not have a point buildup that has to be overcome by those on lower tiers, but instead have a population hurdle that needs to be overcome.

So, with that ladder method another question is a lot more interesting. How long are the "seasons"? In theory they could be infinitely long (in fact I am thinking it would even be preferable). I take it Deathshade's stated 1 month is due to alpha-testing the thing?

/Merf - Right tool for the job so to speak

Offline Tacticus

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Re: 1v1 scoring and rules questions
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2011, 03:30:55 PM »
Ladder seasons are intended, exactly as you stated, to last over long periods of time. The ladder 'evens out' over time in the sense that those not making challenges and/or forfeiting matches will move systematically down the ladder in ranking.

Again, a ladder ranking system is based on winning. If you challenge up and win, you move up the ladder. If you get challenged and lose, you move down the ladder. To stop new players from rising too quickly, there are limitations to the amount of positions up a person can challenge.

Your win/loss can be 1 win/ 5 losses and you can still maintain a decent rank if you have been challenging up for the losses and not being beat when challenged. This is a simple system and it rewards skill over other systems that reward more free time to play more matches which give some sort of point accumulation.

Off-hand, I do not have any examples of previous games I have played ladders in to show you, but this is the long-standing system that is used across the internet for many first-person shooter ladders. It is easy to understand and is time tested as a system that many games can use successfully.

As a long-time ladder enthusiast I am more than happy to continue discussing the way things work, but I am finding it more difficult with every post to determine what it is that is confusing you. Maybe try to make up a specific scenario and then we can discuss the results of that scenario.

Vague hypothetical questions seem to be keeping anyone from clarifying this process anymore than what has been stated and it would be much better to resolve this confusion now than to let the confusion on your end to mislead you to thinking this is more complicated then it is.


Offline MerfMerf

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Re: 1v1 scoring and rules questions
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2011, 03:55:50 PM »
For someone confused about the questions you answer them very well (Thank you!). If the questions are vague I apologise. I have to disagree on them keeping anyone from clarifying the situations though. What has had me confused or just curious has changed with every post (as one thing is explained another becomes confusing/curious).

Your post pretty much verifies what I was saying then about the time frame and in what way it evens out. Examples of games are no longer needed. They where requested (and not just computer games mind you) for the purpose of determining the suitable time frame for a season/cycle, but seeing as you have already confirmed the intention is longer periods then that is no longer needed. The only questions that remain then concerns details like how long, how far up can you challenge, how often can you challenge, etc and that I think is not really needed to know in an alpha. Could even be said that it could not be known before knowing the approximate number of participants (since for evening out to happen takes longer time the more players are in a ladder).

Time it takes to climb the ladder will always depend only on the ladder size (and of course on your skill, but since that vary for each person it can be disregarded), the time the ladder has been running its cycle becomes irrelevant. I like this a lot, provided the cycle length is scaled properly to the number of participants.

When the time is there, I would propose putting these things (The general format as well as the details on cycle length, challenge frequency, etc) in the rules thread for the relevant ladder. Would be a shame to have to type out the answers all over again ^^

/Merf - Thinking new cycles are really only needed to prune away those inactive

Offline Tacticus

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Re: 1v1 scoring and rules questions
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2011, 04:09:22 PM »
Awesome! Glad I could help. I wasn't sure if I was answering your questions or not. As for the rest of the questions about specific challenge limitations and the rest, I am not really able to answer those questions myself.

Those are excellent questions to ask though, as there should definitely be clear answers provided at some point or another. As this is an alpha run of the system I agree the answers can wait a bit and there might be some things like your questions that are waiting on more data or community input. I would assume it is very difficult to make absolute determinations on a lot of stuff without having the data such as activity level and general ladder size to back up a decision.

Any other generic questions you have I might be able to answer. Other than the style of system I only have the information available to everyone else about specific rules and such.


Offline 4204ME

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Re: 1v1 scoring and rules questions
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2011, 06:13:20 PM »
When the time is there, I would propose putting these things (The general format as well as the details on cycle length, challenge frequency, etc) in the rules thread for the relevant ladder. Would be a shame to have to type out the answers all over again ^^

/Merf - Thinking new cycles are really only needed to prune away those inactive

We can't really give details on cycle length other than to say it will be reset shortly once rules are vetted under fire. We will possibly reset at .6 then .7 and so on but I really see no need as the longer the ladder runs the more accurate a reflection it will give of a players activity/prowess. The challenge frequency is not outlined in the rules as there is no limit other than to the fact you can only have one active challenge at a time per ladder. I am hereby nominating Merf as a conscript to MWBU for the purposes of maintaining clarity.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 07:01:39 PM by 4204ME »

Offline CHH Deathshade

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Re: 1v1 scoring and rules questions
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2011, 08:28:16 PM »
+1 Tacticus

Offline Cygma

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Re: 1v1 scoring and rules questions
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2011, 08:35:33 AM »
I'm also a bit confused on the scoring currently. See the attached ranking from the light ladder - 1st place hasn't played at all, while the 2nd has one win and zero losses?

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Offline Tacticus

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Re: 1v1 scoring and rules questions
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2011, 01:53:49 PM »
Toasterpastries was the first to join the ladder and was given first place by default. He will remain in that position no matter his win/loss until one of the active people in the ladder challenges and either A) Beats him or B) He forfeits. The win/loss is inconsequential as all rankings are held by holding the position or taking the position and not awarded by win/loss.

Hope that clears it up for you!!!


Offline CHH Deathshade

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Re: 1v1 scoring and rules questions
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2011, 03:03:34 PM »
This ladder league is expected to run for quite awhile after the we finish beta testing and is run by activity. It is not like the old FCL score based system where you are expected to sit inactive at the top of the ladder waiting for a championship. Your spot will always be attacked while players jockey for rank. Your expected to defend your rank at all times. Makes me wish we had just run the FCL system like the ladder was meant to because it just makes more sense.

Offline Cygma

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Re: 1v1 scoring and rules questions
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2011, 04:32:06 PM »
Thanks, now it makes more sense - i guess the ladder system is a bit unusual for me.
Now someone go and challenge toaster :D
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