LBX Partyvan fan thread

[«اك§» Trooper_Thorn]

I killed a Warhammer yesterday in opens using a AC2,MG partyvan. Yes, it does inflict serious damage and I did not overheat once. Nuff Said!

[(TLL) Heretic]

I'd like to throw in that a RAC2 Parti can kill a Cougar before the RAC2s overheat. It is still able to do that 200m out, which is more then enough range to completely cover any base in TC.

And please keep in mind that despite the prejudice against it, the cougar is still the light mech with the second highest armor levels, having 3k more armor then the Owens.

So what? I once armed and then then headshot a HGauss Thanny in a RAC Parti once (300m ending at 0m engagement)....point is that anything is possible given pilot skill and luck.  As for base defence the LBX Oro is still superior at all but anti-BA work....a good Owens B pilot can shake off any accurate RAC fire, and when the pilot spins up again land another 6SRMs of shake on his head...rinse and repeat.

Anecdotes are tricky things, but if you go test the RAC2 you'll see that 1RAC2 is equivalent to 1ERLBL damage at close range and around half that damage at 400m range.....so yes I agree it has 2/3rds of it's CBT potential damage at close range and while that's not to be sniffed at it is still a serious nerf, as the weapon whould have it's full range and it's full damage.....of course that would increase the cost significantly.

The Partisan B is a superb early game base defender and close range combat vehicle, doing to lights what a demo prime does to heavies. With the additional bonus that it totally rapes lowflying aircraft, dealing roughly 70% of the damage a Huit Prime does.

Funny you should mention the Huit prime..personally I'd rather have the Huits 4UAC2s and 2UAC5s over the Partisans 4RAC2s........however in the BTU it's quite a different story....this is from Sarna on the RAC/2 page:
"While it has the same bore, it is capable of firing up to six times as many rounds as its standard cousin, allowing it to deal three times the damage of even an Ultra AC/2. The weapon may be use to fire up to six times in a turn, with each additional shot giving the potential for increased damage. At the same time, each extra shot increases the amount of heat the autocannon builds and increases the chance for a jam."

1 RAC2 = potentially 3UAC2s of damage, therefore 4RAC2s = 12UAC2s damage at 800m!  In the Lore at range the Quad Partisan would be like having a Huit with 12UAC2s....which would you rather pilot?

A Huit Prime can eat a RAC partisan for breakfast at 800m, this shows you how nerfed the MWLL RAC2 is, compared to the Lore.  If the RAC2 functioned as the Lore in MWLL then the RAC Partisan whould cost around 70k and it'd be a situational choice to take the RAC Partisan or Huit Prime.

Its always fun to watch the light mechs trying to beat you in a close range fight, trading bursts of fire while standing still, probably laughing at the funny sounds my bullets make as they ricochet of their CT or head, only to realize that I have cut them into half before their lasers reloaded.

Yes RAC2s are fun, and I love firing them, always have.....it's just a pity that they are so fawfully underpowered and myopically ranged.

[DFDelta]

Oh Heretic you evil man, quoting me while I am still editing (and doing ingame !!science!!(sorry, dwarf fortress habit )).

I generally agree with you, especially the part about the range. It is the mech/tank weapon with the lowest effective range (apart from flamers), which makes the whole weapon kinda hilariously bad.
Also I do think it needs a buff concerning its ammo, look at it that way: 4 guns need to fire roughly 50% of their bullets to core a light mech, so you'd have to fire 2 full magazines if you were to use a single one. This is pretty pathetic for one of the most advanced weapons in the classic BTU.
Even if the magazine size was doubled it would still need a full reload to kill a cougar, which is bad, but at least not that stupid.
Long story short, I don't think the weapon deals enough damage for each ton of ammo.

Possible idea to fix that would be to simply raise the ammo/ton, but if that is not possible/wanted (hey, IIRC UACs do also get more ammo then normal ACs, so why not the RAC, too?), one could also raise the damage dealt per bullet, while at the same time lowering the time it takes until it overheats, so that "long-term-dps" stays the same.



Also:
Ages ago I suggested to add different weapon modes, especially for cases like the RAC. Make the current weapon with less spread the x4 mode, and add the x6 mode, which overheats in half the time, but deals considerably more damage per second, while also spreading like our current weapon. That way you'd have a strong melee oriented burst mode, which is good for quick fights, like hit and run, and one mode that has better dps on the long term, and also a much better effective range.

This would not fix the "damage/ton of ammo" problem, but at least it would make the weapon a little more desireable as a secondary weapon system.

[(TLL) Heretic]

*SNIP*

Alternative suggestion:
Ages ago I suggested to add different weapon modes, especially for cases like the RAC. Make the current weapon with less spread the x4 mode, and add the x6 mode, which overheats 1/3 faster, but deals considerably more damage per second, while also spreading like our current weapon.

This I like, different spin speeds with the effective range tied to the spin speed!, x6 limited to short, x4 inefficient after the weapons medium range and x2 having no spread up to max weapon range!  Would of course mean that the RAC2 would function like a UAC2 at 800m (a definite improvement over current behaviour, and ammo efficient for sure) and at point blank x6 it's firing like 3UAC2s..... I like the idea, anything that improves the weapons accuracy is welcome!

However, I'd like that button to be more about different ammo types, or your LRM direct/indirect idea far more than for the RACs, as RACs don't really work like that in the Lore where risk of jam/breakage is the only thing stopping x6 mode being used all the time...so IMO a pilot should be allowed to risk jamming while accurately firing at 800m; the current RAC2 model delivers that feeling of risk with the weapons heat bar, and it's a main reason why the weapon is a lot of fun....so I think we'd be best to keep the heat bar approach to jamming/fire-rate limiter and look at accuracy first.

To be fair I think we need to have a beta build where the RAC spread is removed completely (with as you suggest a ~20% price increase added) and see what people think of the 56k 800m accurate RAC2 first.....*crosses fingers that the RAC2 will get some Dev love soon* 

[=KoS= Eldragon]

Honestly I have not used the RAC2 in a serious way in a long time. But I do use a crapton of RAC5, spread seems fine, I have no trouble hitting targets at 400 meters. Although I still need to close to <200 meters ASAP. Is the spread on the RAC2 that much worse, or is the low damage of the RAC2 holding it back?

RAC2, as they are right now, would make great aircraft mounted weapons. Sparrowhawk with 2 RAC2s and 2 machine guns? HawkMoth with 3 RAC2s? I'd use that every time.

I agree the spread as it is now makes the RAC2 a really crappy Mech/Tank mounted weapon. No point in claiming the weapon reaches out to 800 meters when the weapon spread limits you to 400 at best.

Another alternative would be to treat RAC2 as a 5 or 6 ton weapon that fits on the "small" pod mount. Its a crappy weapon, but at least its not too big so you can fit lots of them. (4x RAC2 Uziel?)

[DFDelta]

Honestly I have not used the RAC2 in a serious way in a long time. But I do use a crapton of RAC5, spread seems fine, I have no trouble hitting targets at 400 meters. Although I still need to close to <200 meters ASAP. Is the spread on the RAC2 that much worse, or is the low damage of the RAC2 holding it back?

The spread on the RAC2 is horrible.
At 200m its still manageable, if you aim at a cougars "nose" from directly in front of it, 99% of your shots hit the CT, the sides only get a scratch, maybe 5% damage.
At 250m, the right and left torso both lose about 20% of their armor before the mech is cored.
At 300m, both sides have only 5% - 10% of their armor left when the mech is cored.
At about 450m the arms start taking light damage, maybe 5% each. (the health bar for the arms does not really move much.) It is also likely that you cut out the sides before you break trough the CT.
At 550m I had 150 - 170 bullets left when the Cougar exploded.
650m and more, it is almost impossible to kill a standing Cougar without reloading, about 50 bullets left in each gun. Strangely enough, the arms don't take significantly more damage then at 450m, but then again, the Cougar has very small arms.

This much ammo, just to kill a light, and its not even trying to evade you. My guess is that its virtually impossible to core a light without reloading that is actively engaging you at any range over 300m.



I just tested that a few hours ago, thats the science I was talking about in a previous post.

Please don't ask me why I picked the Cougar Prime as a test subject, I honestly don't know.

[LordHack]

Agree, for the ammo load and how fast it uses it, the RAC2 should be a bit more surgical.

[Taemien]

Been giving the LBX Parti a go for the last few games and its growing on me. Not too bad for late game I've found too.

Its got my seal of approval.

[xInVicTuSx]

@DF
This test was with 4 RAC2s?

[DFDelta]

@DF
This test was with 4 RAC2s?

Aye, did the tests with a Partisan B vs a Cougar Prime, always firing all 4 guns. Guess I missed to mention that 

I did also make each test 4 times to be sure my results are consistant.

[(TLL) Heretic]

Honestly I have not used the RAC2 in a serious way in a long time. But I do use a crapton of RAC5, spread seems fine, I have no trouble hitting targets at 400 meters. Although I still need to close to <200 meters ASAP. Is the spread on the RAC2 that much worse, or is the low damage of the RAC2 holding it back?

The spread on the RAC2 is horrible.
At 200m its still manageable, if you aim at a cougars "nose" from directly in front of it, 99% of your shots hit the CT, the sides only get a scratch, maybe 5% damage.
At 250m, the right and left torso both lose about 20% of their armor before the mech is cored.
At 300m, both sides have only 5% - 10% of their armor left when the mech is cored.
At about 450m the arms start taking light damage, maybe 5% each. (the health bar for the arms does not really move much.) It is also likely that you cut out the sides before you break trough the CT.
At 550m I had 150 - 170 bullets left when the Cougar exploded.
650m and more, it is almost impossible to kill a standing Cougar without reloading, about 50 bullets left in each gun. Strangely enough, the arms don't take significantly more damage then at 450m, but then again, the Cougar has very small arms.

This much ammo, just to kill a light, and its not even trying to evade you. My guess is that its virtually impossible to core a light without reloading that is actively engaging you at any range over 300m.



I just tested that a few hours ago, thats the science I was talking about in a previous post.

Please don't ask me why I picked the Cougar Prime as a test subject, I honestly don't know.

Thanks for the data Delta, it confirms what I suspected, my own testing with the 4RAC2s was from a few versions back (before and after the RAC2 spread was tightened to the current level.... back before they improved the spread a 400m volley would struggle to kill an Osiris before overheat  ) ).

If the spread was dialled back so that at 800m the RAC2s function as they currently do at around 200-300m )some spread at maximum range) or even better,  spread is removed altogether(or spread only after max range) then the new pricey 4RAC2 Partisan would be very popular despite it's ammo problems (that's somewhat expected in RAC carrying machines).

[Brainwright]

Eh, I think a spread of about 3 degrees would be a fine improvement.

[=KoS= Eldragon]

Spread of 3 degrees forms a 25m circle at 500m. Aka the size of a mech.

[Brainwright]

Spread of 3 degrees forms a 25m circle at 500m. Aka the size of a mech.

So 1 degree of spread should be perfect, amirite?

[=KoS= Eldragon]

Spread of 3 degrees forms a 25m circle at 500m. Aka the size of a mech.

So 1 degree of spread should be perfect, amirite?

Maybe. More likely the current spread is already less than 1 degree. I have no idea. Just pointing out how what seems like a small angle results in a huge miss.