Author Topic: Banishing the SRM Vulture  (Read 6089 times)

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Offline xInVicTuSx

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Re: Banishing the SRM Vulture
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2011, 07:20:04 AM »
:/

The ssrm vult never gives me problems, its a bit annoying when spammed on SA, but other than that...

If it brings down your fps I don't know what to tell you, its fine on my end.

The MRMpult is deadlier imo.

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Offline IG142

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Re: Banishing the SRM Vulture
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2011, 07:40:57 AM »
  Because the Mechlab is planned, simply removing overpowered variants doesn't help at all; they'll come back to haunt us eventually.  This is a Beta, we're supposed to be testing for this kind of thing. If an overpowered loadout is discovered then use it to highlight needed balance adjustments, don't just try to shove it under the rug.

  From what I recall in the last thread about the Vult B, there was some disagreement as to whether it really is overpowered. Personally, I think it is at least somewhat - beatable, but still ahead of the curve in too broad of circumstances (such as the entirety of SA).

  The issue is the mass chainfired SSRMs, of course, which just happen to be currently confined to this one mech. Very easy to use with hardly any aiming needed, and constant screenshake. The screenshake especially is what causes so much frustration, because many times you just can't return fire unless you get lucky.

  A couple of my own thoughts on how to improve this:

  1) Reduce screenshake based on tonnage. Since heavier mechs have to rely on tanking hits more than avoiding them, and thus end up most hampered by screenshake, reduce the amount of shake they receive to compensate. This also distinguishes Assault mechs as being the best able to bull through heavy fire while bringing their own guns to bear. And really - wouldn't an Atlas shrug off a few missiles easier than an Uller would?
  2) Reduce screenshake when crouching. When crouching you're a much easier target, but you're braced against impact and can keep your aim steadier while taking the hits. Of course, a Vult B could just rush around behind your firing arc... unless you have your back to a wall (or a 360 torso), which brings in tactics and positioning. And this gives another function to crouching, which is currently just for AA and missiles.
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Offline Terragent

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Re: Banishing the SRM Vulture
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2011, 08:26:33 AM »
I think the only real problem with the Mad Dog B is its interaction with Solaris Arena mode. In any of the team modes, it's if anything an underpowered asset; it's completely incapable of engaging more than one opponent at a time, it's helpless against air units, and its limited maximum range makes it of questionable value in TC and essentially useless in TSA.

SA removes almost all of its weak points: battles tend to be fought in close quarters with short lines of sight, there are no ASFs or VTOLs for it to be a sitting duck against, and almost every fight is essentially a 1v1 affair - even if there are three-way or larger fights, the frantic nature of the mode and the lack of persistent teams give players little time to coordinate their attacks. As a result, it's now a monster capable of grinding down pretty much any asset that isn't either a MASCing Owens running circles around it or a ludicrously expensive assault with enough guns to smash it to pieces despite the screen shake. Most of the standard answers to getting shaken to death - teammates, air units, smashing it from range before it can close - simply aren't available in SA, so I can certainly understand the hate it gets, even if I don't share it.

Offline [A.C.E.S] IkatsuiKage

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Re: Banishing the SRM Vulture
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2011, 08:37:16 AM »
I admit to using both the Uziel D and Vulture B sometimes...

Didn't realize it was slowing down fps for some people, I've not had any problems with others spamming these.

Offline =KoS= Tripod

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Re: Banishing the SRM Vulture
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2011, 08:41:50 AM »
  Because the Mechlab is planned, simply removing overpowered variants doesn't help at all; they'll come back to haunt us eventually.  This is a Beta, we're supposed to be testing for this kind of thing. If an overpowered loadout is discovered then use it to highlight needed balance adjustments, don't just try to shove it under the rug.

  From what I recall in the last thread about the Vult B, there was some disagreement as to whether it really is overpowered. Personally, I think it is at least somewhat - beatable, but still ahead of the curve in too broad of circumstances (such as the entirety of SA).

  The issue is the mass chainfired SSRMs, of course, which just happen to be currently confined to this one mech. Very easy to use with hardly any aiming needed, and constant screenshake. The screenshake especially is what causes so much frustration, because many times you just can't return fire unless you get lucky.

  A couple of my own thoughts on how to improve this:

  1) Reduce screenshake based on tonnage. Since heavier mechs have to rely on tanking hits more than avoiding them, and thus end up most hampered by screenshake, reduce the amount of shake they receive to compensate. This also distinguishes Assault mechs as being the best able to bull through heavy fire while bringing their own guns to bear. And really - wouldn't an Atlas shrug off a few missiles easier than an Uller would?
  2) Reduce screenshake when crouching. When crouching you're a much easier target, but you're braced against impact and can keep your aim steadier while taking the hits. Of course, a Vult B could just rush around behind your firing arc... unless you have your back to a wall (or a 360 torso), which brings in tactics and positioning. And this gives another function to crouching, which is currently just for AA and missiles.
I really like both of these ideas
Makes you feel like a real badass walking through a Vulture B's lamebarrage in your Atlas and ripping through it's sire torso with 3 PPCs and a swarm of MRMs

+1
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Offline Nope

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Re: Banishing the SRM Vulture
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2011, 08:48:06 AM »
Got to hand it to the Vulture B, nothing brings about a sense of teamwork more than shouting out "I smell vulture b" on a SA game, and watching everyone momentarily putting aside their differences to take it down.
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Offline Spooky

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Re: Banishing the SRM Vulture
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2011, 08:52:34 AM »
So, rolled out on Thunder last night and our team really pressed hard against the other team . So much so that after my first death we already had a stomp going and I switched teams . I mean we were up like 200 tickets, it was ugly, so give the other guys a hand. Well , thats all fine and good until I run across this guy, cant remember his damn name, but if I see it ill remember , and he is running the srm vulture. Ok... now yeah its a mech thats out there, but when you chain fire that mech , like this douche was, eight out of ten peoples computers who play this game will cry and die. My fps dropped right into the single digits, stutter and just omg wtf is this?
This mech really is somewhat of a douche variant, yeah it can be helpful if your team is hurting, but it certainly dumped a bucket of cold water on solaris and it certainly can only be categorized as abuse if you take it when your team is dominant.
So... how bout we just shelve the damn thing?
And dude, Ill remember you when I see you.. I dont mind dying , but Ill make sure to ruin your day.

Shelving the Vulture B will not solve anything. Anyone would be able to recreate it, once we have a Mechlab in the distant future.



I think the framerate problems are because of thunder rift and not the vulture itself.

There is an issue with certain particle effects that slows the game down considerably, depending on your system. As far as I remember the devs got it fixed already in their current developing branch.

Offline Spooky

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Re: Banishing the SRM Vulture
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2011, 08:58:54 AM »
The MRMpult is deadlier imo.

I use the MRMpult a lot in SA. Well, exclusively even, I don't even bother with other mechs usually ;). But the one thing I dread the most as an MRMpult is the VB.  In a head on fight, the VB wins... 7 out of 10 times I'd say. Sure your MRMs have a longer range, but the VB is able to close in on you pretty quick and a 350m range is not that short. Once he is close, the the cockpit shake makes it increasingly difficult to home then in on the VB, especially if he is circling you. The cockpit shake on him by the MRMs does not matter at all on the other hand. Using your jumpjets to get out of his line of fire is not very effective against a VB, since he can spin his Torso all around.  And if you try to get close... well MRMs have a minimum range ;). Contrary to the SRMs.

In an MRMpult I might lose against other mechs more often, but those are usually far heavier and more expensive mechs and thus give me more points.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 09:39:25 AM by Spooky »

Offline Priest

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Re: Banishing the SRM Vulture
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2011, 09:03:38 AM »
We already have one with LRMs like that, and it's sub-par at best
So knock 10K off the price, add a couple of heatsinks and call it a good early-mid game support asset. The problem isn't that the other configs are under-gunned compared to the Alt. B, it's that the Alt. B was a bad idea in the first place and needs to be eliminated from the game period.

Upping the armor a bit across the board might also be a worthwhile idea, allowing the Mad Dog to fight the way it's supposed to: open with the LRMs while you close with the target, and then finish the wounded opponent off with the pulse lasers.

I figure if we yell about the Alt. B often enough, one of our shouts might eventually make it through Leer's head.

Quote
There's no way in hell they're going to be able to balance it. Out of all the suggestions to make it harder to boat, or keep cheese variants from appearing, I know of a few configs that will be utterly rage inducing.
I maintain that no good will come of the Mechlab. Best case scenario is they do something like MC2 or MW4 and allow limited modification based on pod size and type, at which point we might as well not have it to begin with.

I'd LOVE a server cvar that forced Prime configs, or at least canon ones.

I think even with some limited variation (It would seem to make sense that this would be the case to introduce the mech bay in phases rather than throwing it out there for full customization) doesn't mean it will be worthless.  If that was the case, MW4 would have sucked too, and I had a blast with that.  Even with some limitation on configuration.

As far as canon, it sounds good on paper, but canon configs just don't make good playable mechs.  Otherwise we'd see more of that.  And forcing prime configs would be difficult. Although you can always jump on teamspeak and see if you can get a bunch of troops to play in a server and set up some scenario or specific configuration matches.

As far as the srm vulture goes, as much as it is a difficult mech to fight against (I have had my PPC's handed to me on more than one occasion), I don't think it necessarily unbalances things.  Yes, it makes it a bit easier to fire, and I think chain firing is rather annoying when it's used against you (and I'm sure could have some affect on frame rate), I don't think it is that unbalanced.

We could start the same argument about the aerospace fighters that they are impossible to hit, which we know is not true, but doesn't make it any less annoying to go against it.  Instead of attempting to have it banned because it's hard to play against, find a strat that works to your advantage.  I have no doubts that there are plenty of mechs the vulture will have issue with. Just have to find the right combination of weaponry, and I am sure it can be taken down just as easily as any other mech.  Barring you stay well out of the firing range (or at least as long as possible).

I'm not a big fan myself, but I can see it's usefulness.  Still, I don't think it's a reason to consider removing it.  If that were the case, some other mech would step up and fill the role, and then we'd have to consider banning that too.




Offline -SM-SUCKER

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Re: Banishing the SRM Vulture
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2011, 09:15:23 AM »
It has a maximum range of 350m. This is a great weakness, making this mech only good in special situations. Of course, once the pilot manages to get himself into such a good situation, then he should also be rewarded.

Offline ~SJ~MausGMR

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Re: Banishing the SRM Vulture
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2011, 09:16:00 AM »
In a 1v1 environment, the best strategy to beat a vulture B if you can't keep distance (which generally you can only do with assets like the Scat A, which have actually got a chance of killing it whilst keeping away from it), the best strategy is to just ram your mech into its face.

Unfortunately, this is not easily done if the pilot is good, and even then its very unreliable. You need a fast firing mech with moderate-good damage. Ie Madcat A or the Thor A.

In a 1v1 environment, the Vulture B is an auto win for me, it really is just so much easier to do well with than anything else.

In a team game, it can perform very well, almost too well at times.

In a clan match, it doesnt tend to do so well due to focus fire.


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Offline koshadows

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Re: Banishing the SRM Vulture
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2011, 10:22:10 AM »
this may be beating the dead horse from first page, but do note that in battletech itself the alt a. config of the Mad Dog(vulture) is a PPC backed up by a LB-5X and SIX SRM6 launchers. If anything by the books the SRM vulture should have a couple lasers too.

On the other hand, I must agree with the posters form above, there needs to be less screen shake from heavier mechs.

Offline ~SJ~ Xarg Talasko

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Re: Banishing the SRM Vulture
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2011, 10:27:57 AM »
That's still less SRM's than the ingame Vulture B, which is 2 Dual SSRM6, 2 Dual SSRM4. Not by much, though.


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Offline Come and See

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Re: Banishing the SRM Vulture
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2011, 02:53:24 PM »
MRM-40 Catapult was only "really" good with the APC bug. :x

Offline =KoS= Eldragon

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Re: Banishing the SRM Vulture
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2011, 03:16:38 PM »
Normally I would type out a long list of reasons why the ssrm vulture is fine. But I'm on a cell phone so... learn 2 play newbs. :P