Author Topic: How big is too big?  (Read 458 times)

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Offline linkinfrost

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How big is too big?
« on: September 06, 2011, 05:03:55 PM »
For the last two map concepts I've put out I've heard they are 'too big'. This was actually a change from an earlier map where it was too 'brawler friendly'. I think that's a fair -- they're large. Are there any guidelines for size? Once I get home tonight I'll run an Owens across Deathvalley to time starting base -> middle and aim for the same with a new map I'm working through.

Since hearing that it was too big, I pushed the bases together significantly. I think the two primary bases are sitting right at 5k from each other (2.5k to the middle capture point). You can see them on the far left and upper right. Grey square in the middle is central capture.

Is this still too big?



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Offline Aidan

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Re: How big is too big?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2011, 05:37:42 PM »
You will typically here this type of "its too big complaint" from those players that like playing on an open public re-spawn server. Their priority is too engage in the maximum action in the minimum time. And from a purely casual entertainment point of view, this is reasonable. BUT, if you are the kind of player seeking organized, competitive team play with tactical strategy, then large maps are definitely preferred.

So your intended audience will govern your map design.



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Offline Spooky

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Re: How big is too big?
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2011, 05:40:39 PM »
5 km distance for the main bases does not sound too big. Map looks frakking awesome though ;). Will it be TSA or TC? Or both? Hopefully TC only ;P

Offline Epona

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Re: How big is too big?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2011, 05:58:39 PM »
The map itself is cool, but when I was playing it I got frustrated because people tend to camp their big Mechs and AA on a hill and just rape me every time I'd show my face. It's too wide open for air to really be effective and for brawlers to be useful. Maybe it was just because of my bad experience, I came in late and could never get the funds to do well. Maybe it's just not forgiving for players that join late, because once the long range catapults and maulers come out it's difficult to do anything at all. Maybe it could use more cover in some way, or maybe this map will stay this way and just be known for being a long ranged centric map- which is fine. but IMO it could use more cover somehow.

Offline (Wilson)

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Re: How big is too big?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2011, 06:30:28 PM »
By way of guidelines... our official maps, all except TC_Deathvalley and TC_Kagoshima feature playable areas that are usually within at most 4k x 4k areas. Alot less in some cases. The actual heightmaps on most maps are 8k x 8k, though the majority of the outer area is what we call "background terrain", which means its for decoration and the player cant get there, so it can be made much less detailed and with much cheaper scenery(ie. no normal/detail maps, no collision, billboard geometry etc)..
 
The Heightmap for TC_Deathvalley is 8k x 8k .. with most of that in use. We found this to be way too big for anything except very large(10vs10 or more) groups of players. The other problem we found with such a large scale map was performance. I personally spent 10's of hours running optimization passes on TC_Deathvalley, and it still doesnt perform as well as we would have liked.
 
The rule is basically, the larger the map area you create, the more compromise and cutbacks you will need to make on detailing its environment and making it playable for all. It will always work out better to first sit down and really think out the design of the level before starting it, to make it as small as possible while retaining the gameplay elements you want(pen and paper + thinking outside the box ftw at this point lol).
 
Also keep in mind, that while you can create maps that are larger than 8k x 8k in Cryengine2, the engine has known problems and crashing associated with them if ur not really careful/have a supercomputer in the basement lol..
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Offline linkinfrost

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Re: How big is too big?
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2011, 07:01:23 PM »
By way of guidelines... our official maps, all except TC_Deathvalley and TC_Kagoshima feature playable areas that are usually within at most 4k x 4k areas. Alot less in some cases. The actual heightmaps on most maps are 8k x 8k, though the majority of the outer area is what we call "background terrain", which means its for decoration and the player cant get there, so it can be made much less detailed and with much cheaper scenery(ie. no normal/detail maps, no collision, billboard geometry etc)..
 
The Heightmap for TC_Deathvalley is 8k x 8k .. with most of that in use. We found this to be way too big for anything except very large(10vs10 or more) groups of players. The other problem we found with such a large scale map was performance. I personally spent 10's of hours running optimization passes on TC_Deathvalley, and it still doesnt perform as well as we would have liked.
 
The rule is basically, the larger the map area you create, the more compromise and cutbacks you will need to make on detailing its environment and making it playable for all. It will always work out better to first sit down and really think out the design of the level before starting it, to make it as small as possible while retaining the gameplay elements you want(pen and paper + thinking outside the box ftw at this point lol).
 
Also keep in mind, that while you can create maps that are larger than 8k x 8k in Cryengine2, the engine has known problems and crashing associated with them if ur not really careful/have a supercomputer in the basement lol..

Fantastic feedback Wilson, thanks. To your point, when we had 10v10 it was a blast. At 3v3 it was hell (5m without a contact - blah).

Maybe I'll move the bases in a little bit more. Right now I think the playable area is right at 5x5 with some outer roads that can be used for safely flanking the enemy (but paying for it in travel time). I think I can bring it down to 4v4.

Another thing to consider, it might be a good idea for me to set it up so that the from each side base to the middle base is 1.5k. That way active radars will show people who are in the next area (avoid people wandering around aimlessly).

One thing to note, I didn't start this discussion to make it about Ridgeline (which is being gutted and rebuilt). It's more to discuss general size guidelines for the community of mappers since it has an enormous impact on playability.

---

To Epona's point of cover (it's a little off topic to the size discussion, but no worries). I'm going through the entire Ridgeline map adding strategic rocks that give brawlers a path of approach. The goal will be to provide partial cover from one or two angle(s), but ensure that from another you are still exposed to prevent camping.

Offline linkinfrost

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Re: How big is too big?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2011, 02:20:29 AM »
A slight different approach: I'm adding a poll. I intentionally left out the 'I like a perfect map which mixes both' option. Keep in mind this poll is for matches with 'enough' players (8v8+) to where you wont roam the larger maps indefinitely without a contact.

Offline linkinfrost

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Re: How big is too big?
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2011, 02:57:37 AM »
Another question for you Wilson- What do you do to improve performance usually? On a previous map I worked on, a few changes improved perf twice over and I have no real idea why.

Offline =CJW=YalK

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Re: How big is too big?
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2011, 03:00:19 AM »
I love huge maps....but I hate stale enviroments....DV you can set the throttle and go grab a snack

Idk, small map if it's the same Enviroment.....

Huge if it's varied...i.e. Kago is fairly varied in fighting areas, Ring of fire another one

The time too engage really doesn't matter as long as I'm not forced to plod in a straight line over endless dunes...And if you can manage to arrange multiple fighting areas that are different than all the better....

Variety is the spice of life, on a single map even better

Just be careful to not be schizophrenic



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Offline (Wilson)

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Re: How big is too big?
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2011, 03:54:47 AM »
Another question for you Wilson- What do you do to improve performance usually? On a previous map I worked on, a few changes improved perf twice over and I have no real idea why.

It really depends on the map and where the performance problems are coming from, that decides where you put the most effort. I'll usually start off first checking the level against our standard budgets for things like Triangle Count and Draw Calls. Tri count should be lower than 2.5 mil and Draw Calls lower than 2500 in areas that are accessible by players(will be alot higher in editor in most cases.. always check performance numbers in pure game mode to be sure, ie. on a dedi server). I'll then try to remove objects, shaders from objects and adjust the view and LOD ratios of objects so they arent visible unless they need to be, in areas where these numbers are too high, with the goal of bringing them back within a reasonable distance of the budget.. this usually also includes placing occluder areas strategically inside objects that dont already have them(such as base walls and some larger buildings, large terrain features etc) and also checking and reducing "overdraw" which is a term that describes redundant rendering.. where the engine is rendering pixels over the top of other pixels, where the bottom-most pixel get drawn over, but is still rendered first anyway.. decals are a the main antoganists here, you should try to make sure there is as little overlap as possible in them.
 
One other thing I do is to make sure that terrain outside the play area contains as little geometric detail as possible, which really just means i smooth it out until its able to swap down LOD levels properly.... Cryengine terrain thats highly detailed wont switch to lower lod's as well or as far as smoother terrain will... you can visualise this either in wireframe mode, or using the coloured terrain tile bounding boxes.
 
Once Ive gotten the tri count and DP into a reasonable range from player accessible areas, ill run some profiling on the map while running around ingame, to check if it has any obvious bottlenecks, such as frametime for the particle engine, renderer etc.. Depending on how these different areas perform ill look at reducing the quality of the particles, or creating specific "low-spec" cheaper variants, ill make custom materials for objects that dont have anything besides a generic diffuse and normal map(no env maps, detail maps, decal layers etc) or ill get more aggressive in view and lod ratio adjustments.
 
Its really an iterative process. I make a bunch of changes that look as though they will help performance, then test it to see how much it actually did help, rinse and repeat until performance is where I want it, or the release deadline smacks me in the butt lol. :)
 
EDIT: One thing I should also mention is that you should run these tests in all spec settings, from low to very high and check them all... something that runs fine in medium, may kill the engine on very high or vise versa. Also, try not to use "Frame per second" as a guideline for performance at all as its tied closely to ur hardware and isnt an indication of what other users will experience. "Frametime" in percentage(as given by the profiling tools) is the best way to measure performance. generally if the particle engine is taking 5% of frametime to render on one pc, it will be taking 5% on others, even though the pc's themselves may have FPS differences of 30 or more.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 04:09:01 AM by (Wilson) »
"Engage people with what they expect; it is what they are able to discern and confirms their projections. It settles them into predictable patterns of response, occupying their minds while you wait for the extraordinary moment — that which they cannot anticipate"
- Attributed to Sun Tzu - The Art of War

Offline Snyp3r

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Re: How big is too big?
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2011, 04:08:53 AM »
There's nothing wrong with making new maps that are "too big", 6km x 6km or more. The way I see it, players already have all the MWLL stock maps if they want small instant action type gameplay, but really big maps are few and far between right now. It'd be nice to have a good selection of both, and especially a good selection of big maps for organized matches and scrims.

Offline linkinfrost

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Re: How big is too big?
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2011, 04:32:45 AM »
Cool! Thanks Wilson. That should add another 30% to my level creation time... at least. Just what I needed!

Offline AlfalphaCat

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Re: How big is too big?
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2011, 07:29:02 AM »
So I can make a 6kmx6km playable area map, awesomesauce!! ;D ;D

 

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Offline (Wilson)

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Re: How big is too big?
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2011, 07:32:28 AM »
Haha it definately will add that at the very least.. its always all these small final technical things that take the longest in level design.. the tedious less fun bits that ya never wanna do but really have no choice cause they are what bring the map to life and make it playable lol.
Good luck man, the map looks really good so far.. hopefully get a game on it sometime soon :)
 
Quote
So I can make a 6kmx6km playable area map, awesomesauce!! ;D ;D

Yep, you can have upto 8x8 without any trouble if you are careful.
"Engage people with what they expect; it is what they are able to discern and confirms their projections. It settles them into predictable patterns of response, occupying their minds while you wait for the extraordinary moment — that which they cannot anticipate"
- Attributed to Sun Tzu - The Art of War

Offline -SM-SUCKER

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Re: How big is too big?
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2011, 08:28:28 AM »
Cannot vote in the poll because it depends mostly on the type of game. Simple TSA needs small maps, for more action.
TC on the other hand can be much better on bigger maps, like CrashValley.