Nerf beam lasers?!?!

[Frostiken]

Why not start a thread called, "Make Heavy Lasers the ONLY lasers."?  Why all the rigamarole?

Quit being dramatic.

While we're at it, quit being a Spheroid fanboy:

XPLs have completely replaced PLs. If the mechlab were in right now, you wouldn't see a single standard pulse laser on anything. Not only do they have the range advantage (which, may I point out, was the only reason they existed in CBT), but they out-DPS, they have better accuracy, their heat is easier to control, they are always ready to fire. They're just more useful overall. Hell if I had the option, I'd replace the CPLs on every Clan mech too.

The reason heavy lasers exist is to serve as a close-range Clan laser, not a gimmick. It's so the Clan can trade range for something else, which is an option that was never available to them before. They're supposed to be viable replacements for standard lasers. The whole point of taking them is to get in range and then completely annihilate your enemy. Funny thing is, right now the closer you are to your enemy, the less useful they are.

You make it sound like heavy lasers were all shit in CBT and they should be that way in MWLL. Maybe you should remember that IS:Clan tech isn't analogous 1:1. Heavy lasers are just plain better. XPLs aren't supposed to really be as useful as they currently are (X-tra range Pulse Laser). Hell right now I'd take XPLs over HLs.

It's also worth pointing out that the +1 accuracy penalty to heavy lasers isn't really that huge a deal, seeing as how you moving + your target moving can give you cumulative accuracy penalties of +6. The whole thing is blown way the hell out of proportion.

CBT Spoilers:

Code: [Select]

-------------------
LBL

DAM: **
HEAT: *
RANGE: ***
ROF: ***
COST (BV): **
COST ($): *
ACC: 0 (Avg)

-------------------
ERLBL

DAM: **
HEAT: ***
RANGE: ****
ROF: ***
COST (BV): ***
COST ($): ***
ACC: 0 (Avg)

-------------------
CERLBL

DAM: ***
HEAT: ***
RANGE: *****
ROF: ***
COST (BV): *******
COST ($): ***
ACC: 0 (Avg)

-------------------
LPL

DAM: ***
HEAT: **
RANGE: **
ROF: ***
COST (BV): *
COST ($): **
ACC: -1 (Good)

-------------------
CLPL

DAM: ***
HEAT: **
RANGE: ****
ROF: ***
COST (BV): ********
COST ($): **
ACC: -1 (Good)

-------------------
LXPL

DAM: ***
HEAT: ****
RANGE: ***
ROF: ***
COST (BV): ****
COST ($): *****
ACC: -1 (Good)

-------------------
LHL

DAM: ***** (More than anything else)
HEAT: ***** (More than anything else)
RANGE: *** (Same as LXPL, same as LBL)
ROF: *** (Same as every other laser weapon - once a round)
COST (BV): ****** (Less than CERLBL)
COST ($): **** (Less than LXPL)
ACC: +1 (Poor)


[Frostiken]

By the way, why not have the smaller lasers have a much shorter discharge time, to reflect their better use at close range?

A one-second discharge is fine for LBLs, but for SBLs it would sort of defeat the point. Giving short range versions of weapons (yes, to include heavy lasers) a much faster discharge would be helpful, methinks.

At the very least, I imagine if LBLs and ERLBLs had one-second discharges, SBLs should be around .33 to .5, with MBLs around .66 to .75.

Personally, for their weight, I think having the MW3 version would be great. Give them an overheat bar like the RAC, only it is called a "Charge" bar and it empties the charge for the laser in like, 1.5-2 seconds of continuous fire, and then make them fire on demand (unless they emptied the charge, then it takes longer). Basically, they discharge a giant beam of energy non-stop, similarly to a heavy laser as long as you hold the trigger down, but stop the second you take it off and it starts recharging the capacitors. Makes them excellent at long range shooting because if you miss you don't spend 4-6 seconds waiting for a recharge, you can just adjust and fire again, and up close they are DEADLY because you can hose the enemy down for as long as your heat sinks can handle it so long as you let them recharge. They're different from X-Pulse because X-Pulse don't have anything stopping you from firing them except heat.

I like that, it reminds me of how AT1:BT did their pulse lasers too.

Worth a thread in I&S, tbh.

[Taemien]

I put Heavy Lasers with the worst draw backs because they have the highest damage output. If you ever played Star Trek Online, you'd know that Quantum Torpedoes were the worst on paper due to cooldown, and horrendous DPS. However they were the most popular because of their burst damage. Same thing applies here.

This is MechWarrior and not BattleTech, so high burst weapons are usually the best. You want to hit and move. Having such a high heat cost and cbill cost means that these weapons fill a niche with short duration burst weapons. If you want something more sustained, you'd use a regular laser or extended range laser instead. But as in BattleTech (the game, not fiction), Pulse, X-Pulse, and Heavy lasers were Never meant to replace their regular vanilla counterparts. They were meant to add other options. Just like the regular ACs were never replaced by LBX's despite being lighter and using same ammo (with other ammo types). Options comes drawbacks and nich roles.

We can't always rely on just paper for results. Its about HOW weapons are used that ultimately determines balance. If this weren't the case, then we wouldn't need to Beta Test this mod.

[=CJW=YalK]

^ I completely agree

And that's why I QFT

XPLs have completely replaced PLs. If the mechlab were in right now, you wouldn't see a single standard pulse laser on anything. Not only do they have the range advantage (which, may I point out, was the only reason they existed in CBT), but they out-DPS, they have better accuracy, their heat is easier to control, they are always ready to fire. They're just more useful overall. Hell if I had the option, I'd replace the CPLs on every Clan mech

XPLS are better than both PL's and CPL's.....if there was a mech lab (and I hate to say this) but I'd replace the CPL's on the MadDog Prime with XPL's....in a heart beat

And I'm a huge Clan fan boi....so that should speak for itself....

[AlfalphaCat]

See, I am not saying that Heavy Laser are where they should be at the moment, just saying that is the real point of this thread.  You want them to be more damaging, all these charts and comparisons being thrown into the mix don't really help make that point.  Looks more like someone is trying to prove something, that most might already agree with. 

I will have to use some more Heavy Laze variants, but in the last 2 patches they have seemed quite underwhelming, but I do think they need a more pronounced disadvantage then the ones they have now.  I think a charge up would work perfectly for mimicking their poorer accuracy.  Would take some practice to be good with them.

The Heavy Larges seem pretty good from my perspective on the receiving end of them. 

[Terragent]

Given the 1.5 second discharge time, I don't think you could really characterise heavy lasers as "great burst damage". Their rate of damage while the beam is on target is actually lower than that of an equivalent Clan ER laser, and the odds of maintaining the beam on target for that time are pretty slim, especially at close quarters.

I would happily accept heavy lasers' heat-to-damage balance if their firing duration was shorter, but as it is they're pretty much never worth using; I'd even take regular IS pulse lasers over them.

EDIT: The devs have stated in one of doorknob's interviews that they're considering making heavy lasers cause self-inflicted EM damage when fired; this is in line with the fluff reason for their inaccuracy, and would be pretty neat IMO. A charge-up time makes no sense at all.

[Frostiken]

Hey guys, remember this thread?

Beam lasers still need a nerf.

Has it ever been considered and at least tested on the alpha server? It's an easy enough change, and I don't see anything but good things coming from it. It would have a small but noticeable impact on the game mostly for the better.

[DFDelta]

I'm still in favor of slightly longer beam discharge times on er and standart lasers.

[Ressk [CSF]]

Hey guys, remember this thread?

Beam lasers still need a nerf.

Has it ever been considered and at least tested on the alpha server? It's an easy enough change, and I don't see anything but good things coming from it. It would have a small but noticeable impact on the game mostly for the better.

as much as i usually agree with you, id say that ATM, the stats on lasers (according to me) sit like:
Beam: weak solo, good grouped
ER: good to reach out and touch, nicely balanced
CER: stupid if boated, but good when mounted logically
Pulse: powerful, hot, fun
CPulse: hotter, better, funner
Heavy: very good over all. HSL is a bit weak.

and by category:
Small: never discount them, not stellar but not useless (except for the HSL, have yet to be good with it)
Medium: workhorses, CERMBLs seem reallllly good, but hot as heck. standard beams are a bit low power, but good enough. MHL is so nice.
Large: if novacatted, SO ANNOYING. otherwise im cool with it. HLL is boss.

really id say that somehow (or according to me), the beams are pretty balanced. id say that they are way down the list of most annoying weapon these days.

edit: forgot about the anaconda. so annoying, but so flawed i should really be packing flamers more...

edit 2: to conclude, i really only dislike the units that boat them, as expected. otherwise i love them.

[Frostiken]

Hey guys, remember this thread?

Beam lasers still need a nerf.

Has it ever been considered and at least tested on the alpha server? It's an easy enough change, and I don't see anything but good things coming from it. It would have a small but noticeable impact on the game mostly for the better.

as much as i usually agree with you, id say that ATM, the stats on lasers (according to me) sit like:
Beam: weak solo, good grouped
ER: good to reach out and touch, nicely balanced
CER: stupid if boated, but good when mounted logically
Pulse: powerful, hot, fun
CPulse: hotter, better, funner
Heavy: very good over all. HSL is a bit weak.

and by category:
Small: never discount them, not stellar but not useless (except for the HSL, have yet to be good with it)
Medium: workhorses, CERMBLs seem reallllly good, but hot as heck. standard beams are a bit low power, but good enough. MHL is so nice.
Large: if novacatted, SO ANNOYING. otherwise im cool with it. HLL is boss.

really id say that somehow (or according to me), the beams are pretty balanced. id say that they are way down the list of most annoying weapon these days.

edit: forgot about the anaconda. so annoying, but so flawed i should really be packing flamers more...

edit 2: to conclude, i really only dislike the units that boat them, as expected. otherwise i love them.

I think you're reading too much into it.

The fundamental principle (I should've summed it up in my bump) is to simply increase the beam laser discharge to one full second, as opposed to the half second it is now.

This will make them just slightly less 'accurate' in so far as that we apparently determine accuracy of lasers with beam duration. This will make pulse lasers seem more accurate and heavy lasers not *quite* as inaccurate. Damage stays the same, heat stays the same, the beam just discharges its damage over a slightly longer time. It's really not much of a nerf, all things considered.

The thread kind of ran away as most of my threads usually do and talked about all god damn manner of things, but the original point still stands: 1 full second on beam lasers, plz.

[Brainwright]

The thing about simply increasing the beam time is it actually increases the accuracy at longer ranges by giving a gunner more time to adjust their aim.  Do not want, really.

If I were going to change beam lasers, I'd use something based on the fact that real lasers would need to be focused on target for a small period of time before they actually did any serious damage.  I'd have a beam laser threshold for each section of a mech, and once a laser had done damage past that threshold, it would start doing real damage to the armor section.  Essentially, I'd disable the ability for a laser to effectively, "rake," a target, forcing a degree of stability in their use.

[Ressk [CSF]]

The thing about simply increasing the beam time is it actually increases the accuracy at longer ranges by giving a gunner more time to adjust their aim.  Do not want, really.

If I were going to change beam lasers, I'd use something based on the fact that real lasers would need to be focused on target for a small period of time before they actually did any serious damage.  I'd have a beam laser threshold for each section of a mech, and once a laser had done damage past that threshold, it would start doing real damage to the armor section.  Essentially, I'd disable the ability for a laser to effectively, "rake," a target, forcing a degree of stability in their use.

oh noes, thats half the reason i even like lasers. the ability to rake lets you catch a running target or BA, and at least hit them with something.

longer discharge, while allowing the gunner to adjust his aim, also lets his target go evaisive, so its a double edged sword. and at 900M, i dont think a extra .5 second is gonna help with accuracy much.

i approve of longer discharge to narrow the gap

[(TLL) Heretic]

The thing about simply increasing the beam time is it actually increases the accuracy at longer ranges by giving a gunner more time to adjust their aim.  Do not want, really.

This is just non-sense BW, think current Beams vs Heavy Lasers, beams are by far the most accurate given their shorter discharge duration....things are the opposite of what you're saying here.

If I were going to change beam lasers, I'd use something based on the fact that real lasers would need to be focused on target for a small period of time before they actually did any serious damage.  I'd have a beam laser threshold for each section of a mech, and once a laser had done damage past that threshold, it would start doing real damage to the armor section.  Essentially, I'd disable the ability for a laser to effectively, "rake," a target, forcing a degree of stability in their use.

The you'd get the same kind of effect as lengthening the beam duration, but with an added frustration of zero-damage against fast movers.  I don't think it would be good at all TBH.

As previously stated, I'm all in favour of us testing out longer duration beam lasers....adding a minimal level of skill (tracking the target during discharge) to a hit-scan weapon would be a good improvement in gameplay.

[TheSneak]

We know all this already. Everyone knows it all, in enormous detail. I found out about this idea last year after less than two weeks registration on the forums, thats how often we hear about it.

When/if it gets tested, we will hear about it in regular updates and/or patch notes. Just like everything.

Also, try and remain calm if you successfully bait a dev to respond and dont get the response you're after.

[Brainwright]

This is just non-sense BW, think current Beams vs Heavy Lasers, beams are by far the most accurate given their shorter discharge duration....things are the opposite of what you're saying here.

The effectiveness of an asset's traverse increases with range.  Therefore, it is more difficult to track a target at close range than at longer ranges.  This is actually the factual basis for the Gauss Rifle's minimum range in CBT.  It's the reason why the large heavy laser is widely loved and one of the primary reasons that the why the small heavy laser is reviled.  The beam duration is just more useful at longer ranges.

The fact of the matter is that longer beam duration would also reduce lasers' close range combat ability, where simply turning is much more effective than at longer ranges.  It's a very serious potential nerf that doesn't actually address the long range ability of beam lasers.  Think of how painful it is to use the Catapult Prime's assortment of beam lasers against an onrushing Shadow Cat, and you'll be advocating making that much worse.

The you'd get the same kind of effect as lengthening the beam duration, but with an added frustration of zero-damage against fast movers.  I don't think it would be good at all TBH.

Not that I'm in favor of adding frustration, but wouldn't that bring beam lasers into line with every other weapon in the game with the possible exception of X-Pulse Lasers?