Author Topic: VA monitors for games?  (Read 10433 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline KorJax

  • Level Design (Reader of Stickies)
  • MWLL Developer
  • Living Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 2571
  • l33tp0intz: +45/-2
  • Memento Mori
Re: VA monitors for games?
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2011, 10:48:39 PM »
By close, I mean pretty close. And its only when the scene is dark, and only around the edges. The monitor is big so its not a huge deal to sit back a little, though I honestly prefer not to

Offline sleepysheep

  • Star Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 1936
  • l33tp0intz: +35/-0
  • I'm me deal with it
Re: VA monitors for games?
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2011, 12:09:58 AM »
By close, I mean pretty close. And its only when the scene is dark, and only around the edges. The monitor is big so its not a huge deal to sit back a little, though I honestly prefer not to

Yeah it's down to that monitor, most IPS don't have that black viewing angle problem. However how many times do you use the monitor NOT directly infront of you lol. So I doubt your really notice when your gaming.
Sandy 2500k @ 4.6ghz
GA-Z68X-UD3H-B3 V1.0 - Worst Motherboard ever.
2x GTX 580 3gb
8gb DDR3 dual channl 1600mhz
HX 1000W Corsair
Win 7 x64 Home Edition
5970x1200 Or 1920x1200 Triple Screen 26" Monitors
Dx10 Max settings 16xAF 8xAA

Offline MagicSquirrel07

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 163
  • l33tp0intz: +8/-0
Re: VA monitors for games?
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2011, 12:28:47 AM »
Got my Dell 2412m eIPS LED monitor in today!

Wow this thing is nice! It feels so much bigger than my older 20" Acer Tn monitor. How the monitor sits on the desk and functions just reeks of quality too - perfectly stable swivel, really nice matte bezel on the edges, super simple to put together (the stand just clips on securely), adjustable height, etc. It looks great with my black desk, speakers and keyboard.

It's very bright and vibrant color wise and I don't get any backlight bleed. I've not noticed any ghosting at all either. I love how the colors in the picture are uniform all the way around the image, so things don't appear more or less washed out.

There is one "big" downside though compaired to my TN - this thing has good contrast, but terrible viewing angles on blacks/dark scenes. If you are sitting close to the monitor and are viewing a predominantly dark scene, the edges and corners of the monitor have this "reflective black" look, where it washes out all the details. This makes it so dark scenes have terrible contrast outside the center of your viewing angle up close, to the point where if I am 1'-2' away, the corners of the picture are almost 100% washed out. I can only "fix" it by sitting back a little to widen my FoV on the monitor.

This isn't a problem at all if the image is predominatly bright or colorful, which is where this monitor really shines. And its only an issue if you usually game or watch movies within close proximity to the monitor, as otherwise blacks look just fine "at the right angle".

I read a review once of the older 24" Dell IPS and remember them saying something about pure black at angles having a purplish hue, but we're talking someone sitting to the side of the monitor at an acute angle not within the distance of someone actually using the monitor. 

Since this thread came up originally Sleepysheep and I have both been trying to find fault with ghosting or any other issues with my IPS monitor.  I have been playing DIRT3 all weekend and can honestly say I have not noticed a problem.  Sleepysheep thinks he can see the ghosting if he sticks his head 2" from the screen and stares really hard... But I really don't know what all the fuss is about (I'm sure many people will argue with this but its just my opinion). 
Blacks are also noticeably more black than the TN panel next to it.  If you turned the IPS off and had someone look at a black frame I would think most people would be reasonably happy with it, but you turn the IPS on next to it and suddenly with a direct comparison you can tell the TN panel is not quite right.  Sleepysheep actually remarked on this when he was here and dragged the steam overlay (greyish gradient in the background) across both screens; "why is the one on the right purple"!
HAF X Nvidia Edition + Roccat Kone+ Mouse with matching green stripes
Custom Watercooled Intel 2600k @ 4.9GHz + Gigabyte GA-Z68X-UD7-B3 Motherboard + 16Gb Ballistix Tracer 1600MHz DDR3 RAM
ATI 5970 with quad waterblock mod/abuse
Corsair HX1050 PSU
Win 7 Professional x64, 256Gb Crucial M4 SSD, 500Gb + 1Tb HDD, 2Tb NAS
Dell U2711 27" 2560*1440 IPS Monitor & 23" 1920*1080 AOC TN monitor
Asus Xonar Essence ST + H6 Expansion board, Yamaha RX-V567 7.1 AV Reciever, Front: 2 * Mission Mx-2, Centre: Cambridge Audio s50, Rear: 2 * Wharfedale Diamond 9.1, Subwoofer: BK XLS200 equalised with Behringer Feedback Destroyer FBQ2496

Offline Mitchpate

  • Star Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 1271
  • l33tp0intz: +39/-0
    • NetBattletech
Re: VA monitors for games?
« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2011, 04:33:21 AM »
Blacks are also noticeably more black than the TN panel next to it.  If you turned the IPS off and had someone look at a black frame I would think most people would be reasonably happy with it, but you turn the IPS on next to it and suddenly with a direct comparison you can tell the TN panel is not quite right.  Sleepysheep actually remarked on this when he was here and dragged the steam overlay (greyish gradient in the background) across both screens; "why is the one on the right purple"!
That's an issue with the TN you have because mine displays the Steam overlay correctly and blacks are, well, black.

I think when you buy LCDs from computer manufacturers you run a pretty serious risk of getting a lemon.  Some people swear by Acer, Dell, and Apple monitors but within a few years they're typically swearing AT them as well.
Mitchpate
NBT Admin Team

Offline sleepysheep

  • Star Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 1936
  • l33tp0intz: +35/-0
  • I'm me deal with it
Re: VA monitors for games?
« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2011, 07:32:12 AM »
Blacks are also noticeably more black than the TN panel next to it.  If you turned the IPS off and had someone look at a black frame I would think most people would be reasonably happy with it, but you turn the IPS on next to it and suddenly with a direct comparison you can tell the TN panel is not quite right.  Sleepysheep actually remarked on this when he was here and dragged the steam overlay (greyish gradient in the background) across both screens; "why is the one on the right purple"!
That's an issue with the TN you have because mine displays the Steam overlay correctly and blacks are, well, black.

I think when you buy LCDs from computer manufacturers you run a pretty serious risk of getting a lemon.  Some people swear by Acer, Dell, and Apple monitors but within a few years they're typically swearing AT them as well.

He has software that correctly sets the colour on both screens. And believe me that works spot on. You can't tell how bad the tn monitor is without looking at it with the ips next to it. It honestly looks purple compared to the ips, with the ips looking proper black.
Sandy 2500k @ 4.6ghz
GA-Z68X-UD3H-B3 V1.0 - Worst Motherboard ever.
2x GTX 580 3gb
8gb DDR3 dual channl 1600mhz
HX 1000W Corsair
Win 7 x64 Home Edition
5970x1200 Or 1920x1200 Triple Screen 26" Monitors
Dx10 Max settings 16xAF 8xAA

Offline Mitchpate

  • Star Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 1271
  • l33tp0intz: +39/-0
    • NetBattletech
Re: VA monitors for games?
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2011, 10:05:45 AM »
You can't tell how bad the tn monitor is without looking at it with the ips next to it. It honestly looks purple compared to the ips, with the ips looking proper black.
Like I said, yours might but that doesn't mean they all do.  What make and model is giving you purple?
Mitchpate
NBT Admin Team

Offline MagicSquirrel07

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 163
  • l33tp0intz: +8/-0
Re: VA monitors for games?
« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2011, 08:09:24 PM »
I'm not going to pretend it is the best monitor in the world, it certainly didnt cost that much it is an AOC 23" HD display with *fake* 60000:1 contrast ratio and a dynamic contrast option I refuse to ever turn on.

I am also not making any sweeping statements about colour tints in tn panels to be clear, but the poor black and contrast shows up the most in my monitor when comparing black side to side.

Both my screens are calibrated with my Spyder 3 Elite hardware monitor calibrator.  To get colours looking anywhere near the level that I find acceptable I had to turn the contrast up quite a bit from the standard (to 75%) on the AOC.  Once calibrated this has the effect of completely blowing out the highlights in some images however colour matching across the 2 monitors is much better (colours are still poor in comparison on the tn). 

From my own personal experience I find the factory "calibration" on monitors is set far too cool.  If I turn calibration off in the Spyder software blacks do in fact lose most of the tint however every other colour on the monitor suffers and after you have been used to looking at the calibrated results the whole screen appears to have taken on a blue tint.

And regarding your comment about buying monitors from computer manufacturers I would not put Dell in the same league as the others.  They make some pretty serious monitors and I would personally vouch for the quality.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 08:15:37 PM by MagicSquirrel07 »
HAF X Nvidia Edition + Roccat Kone+ Mouse with matching green stripes
Custom Watercooled Intel 2600k @ 4.9GHz + Gigabyte GA-Z68X-UD7-B3 Motherboard + 16Gb Ballistix Tracer 1600MHz DDR3 RAM
ATI 5970 with quad waterblock mod/abuse
Corsair HX1050 PSU
Win 7 Professional x64, 256Gb Crucial M4 SSD, 500Gb + 1Tb HDD, 2Tb NAS
Dell U2711 27" 2560*1440 IPS Monitor & 23" 1920*1080 AOC TN monitor
Asus Xonar Essence ST + H6 Expansion board, Yamaha RX-V567 7.1 AV Reciever, Front: 2 * Mission Mx-2, Centre: Cambridge Audio s50, Rear: 2 * Wharfedale Diamond 9.1, Subwoofer: BK XLS200 equalised with Behringer Feedback Destroyer FBQ2496

Offline Mitchpate

  • Star Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 1271
  • l33tp0intz: +39/-0
    • NetBattletech
Re: VA monitors for games?
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2011, 01:17:33 AM »
Go try a Samsung or Viewsonic TN panel.  I think you'll find they're much better looking than an AOC.
Mitchpate
NBT Admin Team

Offline sleepysheep

  • Star Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 1936
  • l33tp0intz: +35/-0
  • I'm me deal with it
Re: VA monitors for games?
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2011, 11:08:43 AM »
Go try a Samsung or Viewsonic TN panel.  I think you'll find they're much better looking than an AOC.

He's not saying his tn monitor is uber, but not matter what tn monitor you have, it will never be close to the colour quality of an ips.

It is physically impossible for a tn monitor to show proper black, and it is all so phyically impossible that a tn monitor will show all the colours of an ips.

Tn only look so good because your brain is making it so, when you see it next to an ips the illution is broken and you start to see what the real colours are on the tn.

You get what you pay for sure, but ips will always look better.
Sandy 2500k @ 4.6ghz
GA-Z68X-UD3H-B3 V1.0 - Worst Motherboard ever.
2x GTX 580 3gb
8gb DDR3 dual channl 1600mhz
HX 1000W Corsair
Win 7 x64 Home Edition
5970x1200 Or 1920x1200 Triple Screen 26" Monitors
Dx10 Max settings 16xAF 8xAA

Offline Gremlich

  • Lance Captain
  • ***
  • Posts: 659
  • l33tp0intz: +42/-1
    • Clan Blood Spirit
Re: VA monitors for games?
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2011, 05:29:55 PM »
“Fail to honor people, they fail to honor you; but of a good leader, who talks little, when his work is done, his aims fulfilled, they will all say, 'We did this ourselves.'” -- Lao Tzu


Offline Mitchpate

  • Star Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 1271
  • l33tp0intz: +39/-0
    • NetBattletech
Re: VA monitors for games?
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2011, 08:58:01 PM »
Go try a Samsung or Viewsonic TN panel.  I think you'll find they're much better looking than an AOC.
He's not saying his tn monitor is uber, but not matter what tn monitor you have, it will never be close to the colour quality of an ips.

It is physically impossible for a tn monitor to show proper black, and it is all so phyically impossible that a tn monitor will show all the colours of an ips.

Tn only look so good because your brain is making it so, when you see it next to an ips the illution is broken and you start to see what the real colours are on the tn.

You get what you pay for sure, but ips will always look better.
Not really.  More and more eIPS are using the same 6bit+A-FRC color scale that TN panels use and LG goes out of their way to hide it when they do.  For example, the Dell U2412M that was just linked to isn't true 8 bit color.  The same can be said with almost all 10bit IPS panels.  Except for some extremely high priced models they're all 8bit+A-FRC.  Some don't even do that, opting instead of simulate the 10bit color using an 8bit panel.

This all boils down to how technical you want to get.  The instant you put a backlight behind a screen you're going to get color wash, regardless of the panel tecnology you use.  If you'd ever taken an LCD apart you'd see just how much the backlight affects the "true" color that the panel itself produces.  No reproduced color is ever a "true" color and any technology that promises to be able to compensate for that is lying.  The only reason you'll never notice is because the human eye can't detect more than 10 million different colors.  Pretending you can is nice but it's just not possible.  It's like using a 120hz monitor and claiming to be able to tell the difference between 60FPS and 120FPS.  Your brain might think you can but your eyes physically can't.
Mitchpate
NBT Admin Team

Offline sleepysheep

  • Star Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 1936
  • l33tp0intz: +35/-0
  • I'm me deal with it
Re: VA monitors for games?
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2011, 11:30:04 PM »
Go try a Samsung or Viewsonic TN panel.  I think you'll find they're much better looking than an AOC.
He's not saying his tn monitor is uber, but not matter what tn monitor you have, it will never be close to the colour quality of an ips.

It is physically impossible for a tn monitor to show proper black, and it is all so phyically impossible that a tn monitor will show all the colours of an ips.

Tn only look so good because your brain is making it so, when you see it next to an ips the illution is broken and you start to see what the real colours are on the tn.

You get what you pay for sure, but ips will always look better.
Not really.  More and more eIPS are using the same 6bit+A-FRC color scale that TN panels use and LG goes out of their way to hide it when they do.  For example, the Dell U2412M that was just linked to isn't true 8 bit color.  The same can be said with almost all 10bit IPS panels.  Except for some extremely high priced models they're all 8bit+A-FRC.  Some don't even do that, opting instead of simulate the 10bit color using an 8bit panel.

This all boils down to how technical you want to get.  The instant you put a backlight behind a screen you're going to get color wash, regardless of the panel tecnology you use.  If you'd ever taken an LCD apart you'd see just how much the backlight affects the "true" color that the panel itself produces.  No reproduced color is ever a "true" color and any technology that promises to be able to compensate for that is lying.  The only reason you'll never notice is because the human eye can't detect more than 10 million different colors.  Pretending you can is nice but it's just not possible.  It's like using a 120hz monitor and claiming to be able to tell the difference between 60FPS and 120FPS.  Your brain might think you can but your eyes physically can't.

Actually you can tell the difference between 60hz and 120hz. You eye can easily tell above 60hz. I know I can.

While the backlight will effect the colour, they can design the monitor so the colour given off takes that into concideration. By no means are IPS colour perfect, but compaired to a TN they are far better. Only OLED can give such true and perfect colour, but I bet you would be hard pressed to see much of a difference between one and an IPS, other than maybe slight washing of colour on the IPS.

If you buy a cheap IPS, you get what you pay for. Cheap IPS suck for what they are made for, this is obvious, but I'm not talking about cheap IPS, since they aren't worth the money.

I'm not saying IPS are perfect, but if you stick an expencive IPS next to an expencive TN, anyone could tell the difference. Maybe not stright away, but they could tell.
Sandy 2500k @ 4.6ghz
GA-Z68X-UD3H-B3 V1.0 - Worst Motherboard ever.
2x GTX 580 3gb
8gb DDR3 dual channl 1600mhz
HX 1000W Corsair
Win 7 x64 Home Edition
5970x1200 Or 1920x1200 Triple Screen 26" Monitors
Dx10 Max settings 16xAF 8xAA

Offline Mitchpate

  • Star Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 1271
  • l33tp0intz: +39/-0
    • NetBattletech
Re: VA monitors for games?
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2011, 12:16:10 AM »
Actually you can tell the difference between 60hz and 120hz. You eye can easily tell above 60hz. I know I can.
The visual cortex can only process 10-12 images per second.  When more images than that are received the brain compensates by attempting to link them together.  Whenever you see a blurry or less detailed object, your brain has just compensated for not being able to process the image fast enough.  Recently they've been using motion blurring to try to help the brain percieve more images from the screen but without that I'm afraid you're stuck with what nature gave you.

While the backlight will effect the colour, they can design the monitor so the colour given off takes that into concideration. By no means are IPS colour perfect, but compaired to a TN they are far better. Only OLED can give such true and perfect colour, but I bet you would be hard pressed to see much of a difference between one and an IPS, other than maybe slight washing of colour on the IPS.
There are so many color balancing issues with OLED I don't know why anyone would want one.  Colors fade inconsistently, and independently, over time and the blue subpixels are often twice as large as the others.  They're also rated as having an operational life half that of TN LCDs.

If you buy a cheap IPS, you get what you pay for. Cheap IPS suck for what they are made for, this is obvious, but I'm not talking about cheap IPS, since they aren't worth the money.
Not to troll, but define cheap.  The $400 Dell linked to above isn't what I would call cheap but I guess that's entirely dependent on the level of disposable income one has :-\

I'm not saying IPS are perfect, but if you stick an expencive IPS next to an expencive TN, anyone could tell the difference. Maybe not stright away, but they could tell.
And I don't disagree with that but I guess my question is that with a difference that isn't noticable "straight away" or probably even detectable at all after a months use is the 3x higher price really worth it?  I mean the number of people buying IPS and other overly expensive technology because it "just looks better" far outweighs the number people who actually need to buy it because they're doing work that's highly color sensitive.  It just seems like a market built to sucker people for money on technology that most users simply can't tell the difference while using.
Mitchpate
NBT Admin Team

Offline MagicSquirrel07

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 163
  • l33tp0intz: +8/-0
Re: VA monitors for games?
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2011, 11:24:22 AM »
The visual cortex can only process 10-12 images per second.  When more images than that are received the brain compensates by attempting to link them together.  Whenever you see a blurry or less detailed object, your brain has just compensated for not being able to process the image fast enough.  Recently they've been using motion blurring to try to help the brain percieve more images from the screen but without that I'm afraid you're stuck with what nature gave you.

I dont think its quite as simple as that is it? (Just to be clear thats a genuine question as reading it back it sounds a bit condescending).  I thought the 10-12 images were the number of images the human eye was able to perceieve as individual pictures, and not as a moving stream.  It gets a little complicated after that due to the effects of motion blur (as you rightly said), how fast the object is moving etc.

 I can 100% tell the difference between 60Hz and 70Hz on a CRT as noticeable flicker at 60.  Personally I find the whole 60 vs 120 argument (ignoring 3D) to be more about preventing eye strain than fluid motion in games, but I will admit I have never tried a 120Hz panel for myself.

And I don't disagree with that but I guess my question is that with a difference that isn't noticable "straight away" or probably even detectable at all after a months use is the 3x higher price really worth it?  I mean the number of people buying IPS and other overly expensive technology because it "just looks better" far outweighs the number people who actually need to buy it because they're doing work that's highly color sensitive.  It just seems like a market built to sucker people for money on technology that most users simply can't tell the difference while using.
I could tell the difference instantly and still can with prolonged use.  I will admit I also spent a months salary on a Digital SLR and have stupidly high standards for images that far outweigh most normal users though. 

Can I ask if you have ever seen a high end IPS in person? I have a friend from Uni that does no colour sensitive photo work at all.  At his last job the company he was working for invested in exactly the same Dell monitors that I have (mostly for the extra resolution) and even he remarked to me after using it for a week what a quality monitor it was and how good the image looked.
HAF X Nvidia Edition + Roccat Kone+ Mouse with matching green stripes
Custom Watercooled Intel 2600k @ 4.9GHz + Gigabyte GA-Z68X-UD7-B3 Motherboard + 16Gb Ballistix Tracer 1600MHz DDR3 RAM
ATI 5970 with quad waterblock mod/abuse
Corsair HX1050 PSU
Win 7 Professional x64, 256Gb Crucial M4 SSD, 500Gb + 1Tb HDD, 2Tb NAS
Dell U2711 27" 2560*1440 IPS Monitor & 23" 1920*1080 AOC TN monitor
Asus Xonar Essence ST + H6 Expansion board, Yamaha RX-V567 7.1 AV Reciever, Front: 2 * Mission Mx-2, Centre: Cambridge Audio s50, Rear: 2 * Wharfedale Diamond 9.1, Subwoofer: BK XLS200 equalised with Behringer Feedback Destroyer FBQ2496

Offline sleepysheep

  • Star Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 1936
  • l33tp0intz: +35/-0
  • I'm me deal with it
Re: VA monitors for games?
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2011, 11:52:32 AM »
Actually you can tell the difference between 60hz and 120hz. You eye can easily tell above 60hz. I know I can.
The visual cortex can only process 10-12 images per second.  When more images than that are received the brain compensates by attempting to link them together.  Whenever you see a blurry or less detailed object, your brain has just compensated for not being able to process the image fast enough.  Recently they've been using motion blurring to try to help the brain percieve more images from the screen but without that I'm afraid you're stuck with what nature gave you.

While the backlight will effect the colour, they can design the monitor so the colour given off takes that into concideration. By no means are IPS colour perfect, but compaired to a TN they are far better. Only OLED can give such true and perfect colour, but I bet you would be hard pressed to see much of a difference between one and an IPS, other than maybe slight washing of colour on the IPS.
There are so many color balancing issues with OLED I don't know why anyone would want one.  Colors fade inconsistently, and independently, over time and the blue subpixels are often twice as large as the others.  They're also rated as having an operational life half that of TN LCDs.

If you buy a cheap IPS, you get what you pay for. Cheap IPS suck for what they are made for, this is obvious, but I'm not talking about cheap IPS, since they aren't worth the money.
Not to troll, but define cheap.  The $400 Dell linked to above isn't what I would call cheap but I guess that's entirely dependent on the level of disposable income one has :-\

I'm not saying IPS are perfect, but if you stick an expencive IPS next to an expencive TN, anyone could tell the difference. Maybe not stright away, but they could tell.
And I don't disagree with that but I guess my question is that with a difference that isn't noticable "straight away" or probably even detectable at all after a months use is the 3x higher price really worth it?  I mean the number of people buying IPS and other overly expensive technology because it "just looks better" far outweighs the number people who actually need to buy it because they're doing work that's highly color sensitive.  It just seems like a market built to sucker people for money on technology that most users simply can't tell the difference while using.

I don't know what the current Doller to Pound exchange is, but my 26" TN panel cost me £240ish....And that was CHEAP -.- (It was 16:10 I hate 16:9!) It easy to buy an IPS for under £600 in England, but they are small screens and lower res, which are not as good for anything but their actual purpose of photo work and can be of lower quality. All the very good IPS are expencive and I'm never going to buy one! I don't see the point for the cost, even though the extra res is tempting.

I'd much rather buy 120hz monitor, but I only game and don't do any photo work. While MagicSquirrel does photo work that he badly needs an IPS for and since he spent enough money on a decent IPS he is also able to game on it just as well as any 60hz TN monitor. Except he has a higher res and everything looks prettier with better colour ;)


While 120hz and IPS monitors give real benifits there are only a small selection of the population that actually care or have the hardware and money to use and buy one. Me and MagicSquirrel both spent alot of money on our PC's, so spending more money on a decent monitor is money well spent.
Sandy 2500k @ 4.6ghz
GA-Z68X-UD3H-B3 V1.0 - Worst Motherboard ever.
2x GTX 580 3gb
8gb DDR3 dual channl 1600mhz
HX 1000W Corsair
Win 7 x64 Home Edition
5970x1200 Or 1920x1200 Triple Screen 26" Monitors
Dx10 Max settings 16xAF 8xAA