Changes to tanks

[F22-sama]

For a few games, I have seen tanks are really dominating simply far too hard to kill. Lack of ways stopping it or disabling the weapons made it worse. Tanks need more penalty on getting parts destroyed, on mechs penalty of losing an arm or a leg is rather big.

Ever since the addition of the hull system, it’s pretty bad. Tanks need more downside from destroyed parts, you can leg a mech or shoot their arm off it is very noticeable. However doing the same thing to a tank, they simply just continue shooting at you with the hull armour tanking further damage or simply turn again.

Unlike mechs that have to expose their kill spot, centre torso, every time they are firing tanks can turn their vehicle around and soak up more damage if you are not aiming at the turret. You can argue that the tank’s turret is always visible but so are mech legs and such, with the armour level on heavy tank’s turrets they are harder to kill than other mechs.

While coring a pair of Blood Asp A with an Awesome D was totally doable (one by one), but insta death facing a single Morrgu is kind of silly.
I have a few suggestions to makes tanks more balanced but also more useable.

While keeping the current hull system and damage multipliers, making some changes will be good.

• Destroyed front armour: No negative effect, to promote players pointing the tank the right way.
  
• Destroyed side armour: Stopping the tank totally, like being legged. Tracks are not as tough as armoured mech legs, even though they are harder to hit.
  
• Destroyed turret: Turret rotational speed lower to 2% or so, current value still allow good tracking ability at combat ranges.
  
• Destroyed rear armour: Crippled speed /and turret rotation (still faster than destroyed turret). Similar to mech rear torso getting cored and without the engine running well, the turret drive won’t be working so well.
  
• Additional hit boxes for weapons, so you can disable the weapons like you can with the ones on mechs. Currently it is too hard to lighter assets to create noticeable damage to tanks, unlike where you can arm a bigger mech and cripple their firepower.
  
• Major grip buff on tanks, they are tracked not some tank with under side coated with Teflon. Not buffing their mobility as canon they are not as fast and mobile as mech, but hell no on sliding tanks.
  

With changes like this, tanks are still not one shotted with a single destroyed parts and are able to retreat if damaged, but not continue to fight at full capacity while crippled.

Feel free to post your thoughts on this and improving the tanking experience further.

[TAX_MAN!]

Feel free to post your thoughts on this and improving the tanking experience further.

Play better.

Tanks aren't that hard to kill if you know how to fight them.  Aim for the turret if you can't insure you'll finish that one side.

Tanks have always been able to rotate and soak damage.  The hull system hasn't changed much except give them some more survivability.

[Bloodycrow]

I don't think it's fair to compare always being able to shoot a tank turret to always being able to shoot 'mech's legs. While legs aren't terribly hard to hit, in most situations, a tank turret is one hundred times easier to target, especially from far away. Not only that, but if you can't see the turret, the tank can't shoot you. Unlike 'mech legs.

Anyway, it's been previously stated there will be further tweaking to the hull system and penalties eventually added for destroyed sections. I don't agree that destroyed weapons should be among them.

[F22-sama]

I was kinda mixed on adding weapon hitboxes on the tanks too, taking away their major advantage on the turret mounted platform. Other damage penalty is needed though, along with further grip buffs. Tanks are still too slippery even with the buff a (few?) patches ago.

[=KoS= Tripod]

That new Shadow Cat E will be wicked

I do agree that using normal SRM6 would be a double upgrade with the Bushwacker B... but I do not think it would make it OP.

To me it feels tanks are too durable, but is that a factor of the hull system being wonky on them?

Protip: never ever NEVER NEVER EVER NEVER shoot  tanks in the turret

the amount of turning speed they lose after you destroy the turret is pathetic and the turret is filled with armor and seems to transfer damage to the hull at a tiny rate
the RAC5 Partyvan can actually CT a Bushy B before the Bushy B shoots through it's turret and kills it (both standing still), while the Bushy B can go though a body section and the hull in a matter of seconds

the secret to killing tanks is to choose a body section (front if preferable to any tanks trying to rush your position as they can't turn the front away if they wanna get to you any time soon) and shooting the shit out if it. They twist it away? you walk around the tank so you can shoot it there again. They hug the damaged section to a wall? you stand directly in front of the tank and shoot down at the top of the section you wanna hit (the turret might get in the way but you just need to re position a bit to find a good spot)

I just posted this in another thread asking about how to fight tanks

That said, I'm pretty sure the devs have already stated a few times that the turret damage = slower turn speed thing is just the beginning, and similar effects to what you said are probably going to be added

[F22-sama]

Just that if they are following the trend of the "(reduced) turret turning speed while turret is destroyed" to other components when they are finally adding it, it will be rather boring. The current tank is still same as before without the hull system, dead or non dead, you cannot really cripple a tank other than destroying it outright.

On the weapon hit boxes, if someone is considering it, the weapons are very hard to hit on most tanks if you are comparing to mech arms and side torsos.  With the weapon armour being added on top if it is implemented instead  of taking it off the overall armour, it will be an interesting alternative of taking one on with a smaller asset. Of course, it should be armoured accordingly to the point of only concentrated fire on the spot will damage it.

[Cloudburst]

Howabout "Mechs are dominating the early game, 'Mechs are OP"?

You should be targeting a specific asset: the Demolisher tank, the Morrigu, or what. I sincerely do not believe a lack of mechanical implementation is leading to tanks, as a whole, being overpowered. They have their limits, you know.
A clever Hephaestus can damn near kill a Morrigu.

[F22-sama]

Nope, it is targeting tanks in general. Yes, even paper Huit and Partyvans. There aren't any alternative ways of dealing with tanks other than simply killing it. With mechs, you can disarm mech to no weapons, leg them to stop them moving or sniping cockpit out. With aeros, suppressing fire works on non suicidal pilots.

Also, try out a Hept Prime early game. Use it well, it will pay you well. Only quick way of killing you in an equal fight with other starting mechs is to kick it over and most people don't even focus fire on it over mechs.

[Waffnuffly]

Nope, it is targeting tanks in general. Yes, even paper Huit and Partyvans. There aren't any alternative ways of dealing with tanks other than simply killing it. With mechs, you can disarm mech to no weapons, leg them to stop them moving or sniping cockpit out. With aeros, suppressing fire works on non suicidal pilots.

That's the whole point of a tank. Tanks are generally much slower and less maneuverable than mechs, so more shots are bound to hit them. Tanks suck at dodging fire, so making them have the same weaknesses as mechs (which have numerous strengths over tanks) would make them just completely useless.

[F22-sama]

Nope, it is targeting tanks in general. Yes, even paper Huit and Partyvans. There aren't any alternative ways of dealing with tanks other than simply killing it. With mechs, you can disarm mech to no weapons, leg them to stop them moving or sniping cockpit out. With aeros, suppressing fire works on non suicidal pilots.

That's the whole point of a tank. Tanks are generally much slower and less maneuverable than mechs, so more shots are bound to hit them. Tanks suck at dodging fire, so making them have the same weaknesses as mechs (which have numerous strengths over tanks) would make them just completely useless.

That is why I am mixed on the idea of being able to disable the weapons, however currently the hull system is simply a rather big HP on top. Extra 6k is nothing to ignore, it is more armour than most mech's centre torso, coring from the turret don't even give you a good multiplier to damage the hull (someone said it is actually a negative multiple)

For example, the most heavily armoured mech, Fafnir Prime have 14k points of armour on the CT, run out it will explode and only 10k is needed to take out out one of it's HGauss.

Comparing to the RAC Demo, it have a whooping 18k on the turret, 15k on the hull front, 11k on both side + the 6k hull and having no way to affect it's performance without destroying it outright. Seeing some numbers might help you think if they are tough or not.

I also don't see much of shot dodging ability on the Fafnir too, it is very powerful as it is. Tanks are not overpowered, armour level like this is fine, as long as there is more way to hamper it's ability if you can't kill it outright.

[DFDelta]

Comparing to the RAC Demo, it have a whooping 18k on the turret, 15k on the hull front, 11k on both side + the 6k hull and having no way to affect it's performance without destroying it outright. Seeing some numbers might help you think if they are tough or not.

That is a little bit misleading, after all the Demo C has 50% more armor then all the other Demos and has by far the highest armor of all tanks. Demo Cs are not really around that often, and every other tank is far more squishy then them.

Turret to hull multiplier is x0.9 IIRC, so yes, killing a tank trough the turret is a slow thing.


BTW, I think all this talk about tanks is useless until we know what the other effects of breached armor will be.

[F22-sama]

Just comparing the two extremes. Showing how much armour you need to go through before even starting to touch on the hull in the worst case scenario, just like facing the most armour mech too. Just suggesting the possible outcomes on when parts getting destroyed.

If they have firmly decided internally, this can be closed serving no purpose. If they decide that the level of damage like the current destroyed turret causes, I would hope that voices can be heard. 

[Arghy]

You also gotta factor in the role of a tank because if its useless and easy to kill who is going to use it?

[F22-sama]

I wouldn't say it is useless and easy to kill even with the suggested crits. Problems doesn't lie on tanks versus more powerful stuff, which should have enough fire power to kill one. However the less powerful assets have no way to damage one to the point it is noticeable. Mind you, many assault mechs have 6k arms or less, which is less than the side armour of Demos, Morrgus, that is without the hull touched. Damaging an arm on top tier assaults to point of near destruction is very possible with good aim and stealth even with starting mechs. Mind you, the Demo is cheaper than most heavies and many mediums too.

[kryobig]

The problem is that the way they are currently implemented, tanks are just movable gun turrets. Without ability to fire on the move, they are sitting ducks against anything and everything fired at them.

The current disadvantages far outweigh the advantages, and tanks can only be used effectively for very specific purposes. Most maps favor mechs very heavily too. I do agree it's a bit silly that tanks can't be disabled, but without stabs and mobility upgrades, they'd just be pointless.