Author Topic: Aerotech 2, Bombs and You: a Suggestion  (Read 1015 times)

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Offline (TLL) Heretic

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Aerotech 2, Bombs and You: a Suggestion
« on: January 25, 2012, 05:32:56 PM »
The Following is an explanation of how ASF conduct bombing as per Aerotech 2 (the ruleset for ASF, Dropship & Warship battles in space or within atmosphere.  It is an add-on to the basic CBT ruleset that didn't cover ASF at all well).

My Suggestions are a way of making MWLL ASF a little more interesting, and a LOT more deadly...as they are in the Lore.  If you don't wish to read about how things are done on the tabletop just skip to the "My Suggestion" part.  If you hate ASF or are blinded by the LBX cheese (blame the weapon not the ASF) then don't bother reading or commenting please  :o :P


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Basic Bomb Rules:

In CBT (Aerotech 2) an ASF is able to carry 1 Bomb per 5tons of mass (mass/5= max number of bombs).  However for every increment of 5bombs carried the ASFs Safe Thrust is reduced by 1.  Thrust (not the same as 'mech movement points) is how Dropships, Warships and ASF move in Aerotech 2; a Shiva is 5/8 (Safe/Max), Sulla is 9/14, Sparrow Hawk 10/15 in the Lore.  All ASF can carry bombs without sacrificing any weapons or pod-space to do so.

Example: A  Shiva at 85tons could carry up to 17bombs if it could afford the cost, but doe so while carrying the variants full weapons loadout as well as the Bombs :o. The Shivas Safe thrust is 5, Maximum Thrust is 8, with a Full load of 17 bombs that Shiva would drop to a Safe Thrust of 2 so only capable of Half speed! Or carry 8bombs at a 1point Safe Thrust cost (safe thrust of 4)!

Example: A MWLL SparrowHawk C at 30tons could carry a Maximum of 6 bombs, carrying 4 without penalty to it's Safe Thrust rating of 10, even with the full 6bombs load it only barely notices the drop in speed!


Bomb types:

Bombs in CBT come in several flavours:
High Explosive (HE): 10 points of damage to everything in target Hex
Cluster: 5 points to everything around and at the impact Hex.
Laser-Guided: TAG homing more expensive HE variant.
Inferno: does what it says on the tin.
Mines: maybe not for MWLL!
Arrow IV: Yes please! takes up 5bomb spaces per arrow (but in MWLL that means we get 1ton of Arrows (5shots) for 5bombs space.  Definately something Overpowered on a LRM Shiva, so maybe not good for MWLL!


Limits on Bombers:

In Aerotech 2, other than the Safe Thrust penalty there is no other real limitation on Bombers, for example you could drop all bombs in the same turn!!! In MWLL this would be insane, so I'd suggest a limit on Lights to 2bombs per reload (even if they are carrying 6bombs, it would be 3 passes to drop them all), Mediums to 3bombs per reload, Heavies 4 etc as a rule of thumb.  These bombs-per-relaod could be altered if an ASF is deemed primarily Bomber or Fighter.


**************************************


My Suggestions for Battletech Bombs!:

* FBombs (1000kinetic and 450missile damage) are removed from the game.
* Bombs are loaded after ASF purchase via the hanger purchase screen.
* Bombs do not use up extra tons when purchased.
* Any and All ASF can purchase and drop bombs.
* Only Bombs of the same type can be carried at the same time (so selecting 1bomb type disables selection of another type and bombs must be dropped before new type can be loaded).
* All ASF have a number of Bomb doors, this number determines how many bombs may be dropped before reloading, this is loosely based on the ASFs mass, but can vary to  ie. the Shiva as an Assault ASF may be considered a Bomber by the Devs and gets 6 bomb doors, I purchase 16HE Bombs for the Shiva E but I need 3 bombing-runs to drop all my bombs.  If the Devs decided the Shiva is actually a multi-role ASF, as in the Lore, then it might have 4 doors and I'd need 4 bombing runs to drop all the bombs and so on.
* The maximum number of bombs carried is dependant on asset-mass/5. (maximum of 6bombs carried for a 30ton SparrowHawk, 9bombs for the Sulla, and 17bombs for the Shiva etc.).
* Handling is dampened and Topspeed reduced related to how many bombs are carried/number of bomb doors (Thus we can have assets like a dedicated medium bomber, 50tons but 4bomb doors and thus moves better when carrying 10bombs than a Sulla, which as an Air Superiority fighter that might only have 2 bomb doors and thus really struggle when carrying 6 of it's maximum 9bombs etc.)...I think this would be better in a real-time enviroment than the per 5bomb handling/top-speed decrements in Aerotech 2.

Bomb Flavour Suggestions:

HE: Does 500points Kinetic and 400missile damage (roughly 2/3rd old FBomb values). Splash of 20m.  Fairly inexpensive.
Cluster: Does 250points Kinetic and 250 points missile.  Splash of 150m.  Fairly inexpensive.
Laser Guided: Same damage profile as HE but costs slightly more, follows TAG.
Inferno: 600 Flame (so 60% of a BA Inferno grenade) 200 missile damage. 50m splash radius.


So what does this all mean?
There'd be no "Bomber" variants, all ASF variants could carry bombs, just that bombs are expensive and more bombs = worse handling and slower speed (you're over-tonned with Bombs, more bombs more handling problems); Sparrowhawks would be useful again, strafing runs where the Primary armament does some damage would be the best ASF bomb runs (Let those UACs and RACs do the damage before you drop the hammers!).  Downside is that the bombs would do less damage, and are designed more for a coup-de-grace after the main-guns have straffed than a 1 pass kill-shot.

It'd be closer to the actual Lore ASF and how they behave and would be better IMO.


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Offline CGB [CoffiNail]

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Re: Aerotech 2, Bombs and You: a Suggestion
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2012, 05:55:41 PM »
I really really like this idea. I rarely play in a bomber, so making all ASF viable, then the ability for people to purchase their bombs separately  would greatly please me. For the most my only two ASF i like to fly aside from the sparrowhawks, they are just plain fun, are Sulla A with the 4 CERLL and the 4 LRM20 shiva.



Offline =KoS= Eldragon

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Re: Aerotech 2, Bombs and You: a Suggestion
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2012, 06:06:03 PM »
Unfortunately the AA mechanic in this game is already broken in favor of bombers. 

Reduced handling won't offset the benefits of being able to carry large number of bombs. Too many maps allow bombers to approach under complete cover.

Thus, I cannot help but disagree with the suggestion unless AA also gets a big buff.


Offline CGB [CoffiNail]

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Re: Aerotech 2, Bombs and You: a Suggestion
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2012, 06:09:05 PM »
Unfortunately the AA mechanic in this game is already broken in favor of bombers. 

Reduced handling won't offset the benefits of being able to carry large number of bombs. Too many maps allow bombers to approach under complete cover.

Thus, I cannot help but disagree with the suggestion unless AA also gets a big buff.



Reduced handling AND speed.

Your Shiva going 250kph or what not with no bombs but loaded up with 8 bombs it may only go 120kph. Which takes away a lot of the advantages it has.



Offline =CJW= Dhalrin

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Re: Aerotech 2, Bombs and You: a Suggestion
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2012, 06:15:11 PM »
I seriously LOVE every idea in this post!
Soooo, Devs, can you squeeze that into 0.55, please? ;) *ducks for cover*

-Dhal

Offline Byrkmire

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Re: Aerotech 2, Bombs and You: a Suggestion
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2012, 07:03:12 PM »
wow great idea. Would make bombers more fun to fly. :D

Offline =CJW= Zweistein000 (W)

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Re: Aerotech 2, Bombs and You: a Suggestion
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2012, 12:20:54 AM »
I'm always in favor of bombers not being able to bomb the crap out of AA unless they vasty outnumber* them. I approve :D

* Currently it's the other was around - you need 2-3 sometimes 4 huits to handle a very good shiva pilot. Hell even Sullas are hard in the right hands. But back to topic now.

..., but this is battletech, and sense is often not made.

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Offline -SM-SUCKER

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Re: Aerotech 2, Bombs and You: a Suggestion
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2012, 12:36:28 AM »
This is a very interesting suggestion. And it might be a change for the better.
I say, let the alpha testers fly!

Offline Cloudburst

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Re: Aerotech 2, Bombs and You: a Suggestion
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2012, 01:34:32 AM »
I like the idea of bombing runs that consist of more than 4 bombs that and two could completely cripple a 'Mech. More incremental damage on the bombs would mean more fun, atleast in my book.
(Approve of Idea)
(Disapprove of provided damage in terms of balance)
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Offline Arghy

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Re: Aerotech 2, Bombs and You: a Suggestion
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2012, 03:26:11 AM »
I'm staunch anti aero and i support this but as stated there needs to be alot more penalties due to the planes having such command of the sky. Speed isent everything as they can still hug terrain and only need to get that window to drop bombs then zoom off again. Whats to stop an aero from dropping from the ceiling then climbing again before AA could do its damage?

I'd love for aero weapons to be separated into AA and AG with bombs being the main focus for them so AA weapons wont do as much damage as their ground counterparts against ground targets. This would mean bombs would be the primary ground attack weapon unless you were in a few AG weapon variants and if you balanced plane handling with bombs you'd ensure AA would get a chance to counter the bombers withing getting taken out by the flying assault mechs.

Reduced bomb damage ensuring you'd need more then just a pass to destroy a mech and the reduced handling/speed constant as long as you carried even 1 bomb would counter the current hit and run slaughter going on. Another option is having to open the bomb bay doors that slows down the aero while their deployed but unless its deployed you cant drop bombs. An aero could still dive down and drop his bombs but he'd be slow as hell that entire time so that window for him to do the damage is increased allowing AA to kill him before he destroys a mech then returns to base to repair.

Offline ELH_Vivicector

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Re: Aerotech 2, Bombs and You: a Suggestion
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2012, 07:00:56 AM »
I heavily disapprove this idea. It is quite illogical and won't provide better gameplay.

First, there is no sense in bombs having zero weight. Why then ASF can't carry more weapons in exchange for the speed? Why tonnage rules apply for weapons, but do not apply for bombs? Really, Aerotech 2 looks stupid in this part.

Second, it would essentially make every ASF a bomber, and that would eliminate any need for interceptors. Take cheap Sulla D, that is a great interceptor/dog fighter and get yourself a reload or 2 of bombs. Get in, throw bombs (getting normal speed and manoeuvrability). If enemy ASF is trying to intercept - rape him with your great AA weaponry.

Thirdly, it would brake the state of fragile balance that is achieved now (not so much aero rage threads) - leading to several versions of changes.

Offline Arghy

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Re: Aerotech 2, Bombs and You: a Suggestion
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2012, 07:22:45 AM »
The lack of aero rage threads is due to the lack of good aero pilots. As the balance is now on big maps aeros are king and you have no chance at stopping them unless your in another aero.

Like you said the aeros would balance themselves because interceptors could easily gun down the bombers and if there were no bombers any plane you were currently in could then double as a ground attack role.

Offline ELH_Vivicector

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Re: Aerotech 2, Bombs and You: a Suggestion
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2012, 07:36:36 AM »
A level of skill needed to use aero properly is another balancing factor. No one objects, when a good mechwarrior is scoring 12/0. There is not much of people able to do that (comparing to a mass of people on pubs). Aeros are even harder to master.

Offline NSallaNuto

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Re: Aerotech 2, Bombs and You: a Suggestion
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2012, 08:47:31 AM »
Fbombs are fine, at least on the Sulla. The Shiva is a different problem, it is related to the more general problems of "boats" in this game. I fail to see the usefulness of 4x<big weapon> on any ASF or vehicle. In my opinion large weapons should be limited to two by design rules or slots design, then it would be possible to balance the weapons accordingly.

Different kind of bombs would be nice but current fbombs should be the baseline. An alternate bomb type could have much larger splash but do only limited damage, to be used vs large groups or BA nests. I don't like the idea of any kind of guided or semi-guided bombs.

I agree with Vivicector that bombs must have weight, the limited number of bombs is what balances them.

A much more urgent issue with ASFs is adding a command for manual gear deployment.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 10:04:58 AM by NSallaNuto »

Offline Bobby

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Re: Aerotech 2, Bombs and You: a Suggestion
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2012, 09:53:34 AM »
...

A much more urgent issue with ASFs is adding a command for manual gear deployment.

Why not just replace the "level" key for it?