Aerotech 2, Bombs and You: a Suggestion

[[CW]Aresye]

...and the only person that can actually shoot down ASF in any ASF other than a flying Novacat or Shiva E that I know of is Twinkletoes

Do you get similar scores in ASFs as in mechs?

I'm a fairly decent pilot, however the last time I had similar good score in an ASF was back in 0.3. And yes, I fly a lot.

A pilot's measure of skill isn't based off K/D ratio.

Sure, a Sulla C pilot could rack up kills going after lights and BA, but that doesn't do anything to help their team when there's assaults on the ground.  Being an effective ASF player is finding the most dangerous assets your team is facing, and softening them up for them.

This of course places the pilot at more risk.  A quad LBX-20 Fafnir is a very dangerous target to all assets, but making a dead-on bomb pass greatly helps your team in defeating it.  So a good pilot can be judged by how effective they are at assisting their team whilst at the same time preventing themselves from being shot down.

Anybody can fly a Sulla C, instagib light mechs away from their team's line, and turn around and say bombing is easy.  A RAC5 Hawkmoth pilot could do the same thing by hovering near an APC and shredding BA as they spawn, keeping themselves away from what is actually challenging.  Only difference is you don't see Hawkmoth pilots going on the forums and claiming the RAC5 Hawkmoth is easy as a result, yet it seems a lot of novice pilots like to claim bombers are easy when they haven't tried using them in a way that actually helps their team.

[ELH_Vivicector]

...and the only person that can actually shoot down ASF in any ASF other than a flying Novacat or Shiva E that I know of is Twinkletoes

+ . I had a lot of fun killing ASF in SparrowHawk B WITHOUT ramming. It is doing quite a good damage! Also, used Sulla D when enemy has too much aero (not much - it is quite rarely needed) and got a lot of kills with it. Even managed to make an aero kill with Shiva B once  . Used Shiva A against air and had some success (killing Shiva E in head-on charge) Also, Shiva Prime. Looks like I am nearly the only person using it from time to time 

Bombers basically ARE the only good ASF.

I really want to say some insult right now. Usually, such things are said by people who never properly used any other ASF then a bomber and is still flying on standard controls. Also, we have probably never played on one server when I was in Sulla A.

Any of the others (besides the Flying Novacat and BS Shiva) are outclassed by similarly priced things on the ground,

Rly? Sulla E. ~37000. 2*ATM-6, 2*UAC-2. What mech packs similar load? Shiva B. 4*LRM20, NARC, 6 tonnes (ultimate death to slow targets and AA, BTW). SparrowHawk with full electronics and C3 for ~20k. Sulla D beeing one of the most effective AA for only 27k. Shiva Prime suffers from weapon diversity, but is still remarkable. Shiva A suffers from UAC10s bad damage. Gonna try it again with future UAC10 buff.

There ARE very good ASF, not just Sulla C, Sulla A, Shiva E. You just need to see them

Do you get similar scores in ASFs as in mechs?

Basically, Sulla A gives me better score. But I see what do you mean. Basically, if I am playing to win on pub (rare thing), I will be getting way better score on mechs, then on ASF (NCat A and they will loose hands before saying "WTF?").

[=KoS= Tripod]

...and the only person that can actually shoot down ASF in any ASF other than a flying Novacat or Shiva E that I know of is Twinkletoes

+ . I had a lot of fun killing ASF in SparrowHawk B WITHOUT ramming. It is doing quite a good damage! Also, used Sulla D when enemy has too much aero (not much - it is quite rarely needed) and got a lot of kills with it. Even managed to make an aero kill with Shiva B once  . Used Shiva A against air and had some success (killing Shiva E in head-on charge) Also, Shiva Prime. Looks like I am nearly the only person using it from time to time 

Like I said, he was the only one I've SEEN doing it. If you or Aresye ever shot me down in a Sulla Prime or Sparrowhawk or something, well sorry for forgetting but he's done it like 4 times (also the only 4 times I've ever been shot down by an ASF that isn't BSShiva or flying novacat)

Bombers basically ARE the only good ASF.

I really want to say some insult right now. Usually, such things are said by people who never properly used any other ASF then a bomber and is still flying on standard controls. Also, we have probably never played on one server when I was in Sulla A.

Sulla A is the flying novacat, which is one of the two non bombers I said didn't suck

Any of the others (besides the Flying Novacat and BS Shiva) are outclassed by similarly priced things on the ground,

Rly? Sulla E. ~37000. 2*ATM-6, 2*UAC-2. What mech packs similar load? Shiva B. 4*LRM20, NARC, 6 tonnes (ultimate death to slow targets and AA, BTW). SparrowHawk with full electronics and C3 for ~20k. Sulla D beeing one of the most effective AA for only 27k. Shiva Prime suffers from weapon diversity, but is still remarkable. Shiva A suffers from UAC10s bad damage. Gonna try it again with future UAC10 buff.

There ARE very good ASF, not just Sulla C, Sulla A, Shiva E. You just need to see them

I've shot down plenty of Shiva B Fagspammers with LtGauss Fafnir so it's not the easymode it used to be, Sulla E isn't that great and is actually a worse dogfighter than the Prime, sparrowhawk I can't use with my FPS as it gets really choppy and pretty much useless in anything other than a near empty server and can be instakilled by a Ltgauss Uziel

Do you get similar scores in ASFs as in mechs?

Basically, Sulla A gives me better score. But I see what do you mean. Basically, if I am playing to win on pub (rare thing), I will be getting way better score on mechs, then on ASF (NCat A and they will loose hands before saying "WTF?").

[[CW]Aresye]

You might be forgetting I taught TwinkleToes a lot of his dogfighting skills.  Something I always regret when I face off against him.

Can't wait for Iron Chef to get back.

[=KoS= Tripod]

You might be forgetting I taught TwinkleToes a lot of his dogfighting skills.  Something I always regret when I face off against him.

Can't wait for Iron Chef to get back.

lol, your misake

[ELH_Vivicector]

Sulla A is the flying novacat, which is one of the two non bombers I said didn't suck

I know. The quote below is referring to the same thing as that one. Not all other non-A/FBomb/E-ASF suck.

I've shot down plenty of Shiva B Fagspammers with LtGauss Fafnir so it's not the easymode it used to be

Hm. LtGauss? Then Shiva B was just used in the wrong way. Easy to guess the right way, but don't want to post it (not to create a wave of testers  ).

Sulla E isn't that great and is actually a worse dogfighter than the Prime

Sulla E is great at the match start and is may be the best choice for around 40k. Not a dogfighter, yep.

sparrowhawk I can't use with my FPS as it gets really

That is really bad. Devs should find a way to untie SparrowHawk and Hawkmoth from FPS. However, this is not a problem of asset as it is, but a bug. Asset itself is the best air fighter you can get.

[DFDelta]

Shiva Prime is also good for air to air.

Those 2 Gauss are easy to hit with and pack a punch that no ASF can ignore, also it outranges pretty much everything that could pose a danger to it. (killing Huit Primes with Gauss and LRM salvoes from outside their UAC5 range is fun  )
I love the Shiva Prime, too bad people intantly start to spam BullShit BeatStick Shivas as soon as they see an enemy Shiva of any kind. And you can't kill it before it comes in range and instagibs you... 

Hm. LtGauss? Then Shiva B was just used in the wrong way. Easy to guess the right way, but don't want to post it (not to create a wave of testers  ).

You mean abuse the crap out of the fact that air-LRMs hit out to far longer ranges then 1000m? Almost ELRM ranges if I remember that correctly 

[Ralux]

1250m, just like ground (C)LRMs...

Was fun when that Shiva had 4x 20 ELRMs with a range of about... 1750m? Maximum trolling.

[(TLL) Heretic]

Wow, I got almost 2 pages before the usual suspects warped this into the usual weekly Aero thread  Karma for all those who took the time to read the massive wall-of-text that was my OP.

Unfortunately the AA mechanic in this game is already broken in favor of bombers. 
Yes, but only because we have a bomber variant that can move as fast and handle like a Prime, if bombs were purchasable (like BA grenades) we can place penalties on speed and handling in increments related to number of bombs carried.  Bombs also do much less damage in this Lore-based model, they are intended as the coup-de-grace at the end of your strafing run. 

Reduced handling won't offset the benefits of being able to carry large number of bombs. Too many maps allow bombers to approach under complete cover.
Handling reductions as a balancing factor has 3 variables here, amount of bombs you can drop in one pass, the damage potential of those bombs and the severity of the incremental reductions.  You CAN carry a lot of Bombs in Aerotech 2, sure, but the penalties are very severe for doing so (Every fighter out there will eat you for breakfast as you turn like a pregnant cow in a full bomb-load Shiva), each standard HE bomb only does 10points of damage, and consider that in MWLL every ground unit will be taking pot-shots at your half-speed, half-handling fat Shiva-arse you'd need a lot of team support to land the kill blow on heavies with just the bombs.   On top of that is the "Bomb Doors" Idea, where each asset has a set number of bomb doors (taking say 5s to reload) and thus limiting the number of bombs that can be dropped each pass.

As an ASF pilot you might often take just enough bombs for 1 pass (so you're almost as fast and manouverable as without the extra weight), and you'd strafe the enemy with Gauss, Lasers, PPCs and UAC20s before attempting the finish with the bombs.....this should be the aimed for ASF vs Ground gameplay IMHO.  The balance point of handling reductions would have to be tested on each asset but it'd make ASF so much more dynamic and closer to the Lore too.

Thus, I cannot help but disagree with the suggestion unless AA also gets a big buff.

I heavily disapprove this idea. It is quite illogical and won't provide better gameplay.
It's Battletech, not a lot is logical  

First, there is no sense in bombs having zero weight.
They have weight, that's why they reduce your Safe Thrust by 1 point per 5bombs, think of it as "overweight" or engine rating reduction.

Why then ASF can't carry more weapons in exchange for the speed?
It's easier to think of it like the strange rules that allow 'mechs to carry trees as clubs and such.....cue the obligatory 300 pic of some-one shouting "This is BATTLETECH!"     If you want it fluffed, Nebfer or Zeus are your men, they'll explain it no doubt, but "thems the rules" 'm just translating them into MWLL from CBT.

Why tonnage rules apply for weapons, but do not apply for bombs? Really, Aerotech 2 looks stupid in this part.
If it makes you happy I agree and think we could do exactly that for the MWLL SparrowHawk, reduce the handling to match it's extra-weight (welcome for pilots no?) and a 'Hawk that would bite.....of course the pod-mounts are going to limit you.

Second, it would essentially make every ASF a bomber, and that would eliminate any need for interceptors. Take cheap Sulla D, that is a great interceptor/dog fighter and get yourself a reload or 2 of bombs. Get in, throw bombs (getting normal speed and manoeuvrability). If enemy ASF is trying to intercept - rape him with your great AA weaponry.
Well the 2 Bombs you would be carrying would be a lot less damaging than the current F-Bombs are, Aerotech 2 bombs are like an IS PPC hit worth of damage, sure they'd be upscaled for MWLL (my suggested damage levels are in the OP). 

There would be nothing at all stopping you from taking a Shiva E and a single load of bombs to avoid a big handling penalty (If you can afford them) and dropping your expensive bombs if you see an air threat and taking him out with the LBX cheese, or if the air is clear landing 4LB-20X then 4 HE Bombs on some poor sap assault 'mech or tank.....there's aircraft today that do the job of mixed-role fighter bomber, Typhoon and the old Eagle spring to mind, both will drop external stores prior to a furball, or bomb the bejesus out of ground-targets if the air is clear....that's all part of air combat, no?....incidentally the Shiva Prime was designed as a Nuclear Warhead delivery system for the Thera Super-Carrier

Thirdly, it would brake the state of fragile balance that is achieved now (not so much aero rage threads) - leading to several versions of changes.
The "state of balance" right now is just awful, it is balanced I agree, but it is also boring, frustrating and/or too-cheap/cheesy-for-words, depending on your point of view as an ASF bomber, Interceptor or AA gunner.   Complete lack of strafing runs, cheap Ballooning, cheesy LBX 1shots, frustrating Air vs Air, frustrating and unrewarding AA.  It's balanced right now I agree (as far as AA vs ASF on open maps), but I'd hardly say it's feature complete or even much fun right now.

The Joy of MWLL is that it is still in development, and lets face it one of the reasons for the weekly ASF threads is due to their implementation being disliked by the community.  When I see a dedicated BA, ASF, Tank or 'mech pilot having the same levels of point earning then I think we will be balanced, and TBH I only VERY rarely see any ASF pilot in a podium place (they usually just use the ASF until they can afford the Heavy/Assault 'mech of their choosing if they are in the top slots it was the 'mech that usually got them there, although the ASF got them that 'mech).

[AXEL]

I read your wall of text, and all I got out of it was that according to your damage numbers you want to pilot a sulla with the firepower of six fire bombs. I wouldnt mind free bombs basically, but make them falling ac20 shells if the jet gets to keep all of its weapons.

[Waffnuffly]

I read your wall of text, and all I got out of it was that according to your damage numbers you want to pilot a sulla with the firepower of six fire bombs.

Uh, no. He's said multiple times now that the individual bombs are a lot weaker than firebombs. If the numbers don't add up properly, then that's something which would be fixed in balance testing / patches. Assuming this system was implemented.


It's an interesting idea, but I have to wonder how much work it would take just to even TRY it given it would probably require massive code rewrites for ASFs, and that's a lot of manpower and resources spent on a gamble.

[AXEL]

Uh, no. He's said multiple times now that the individual bombs are a lot weaker than firebombs. If the numbers don't add up properly, then that's something which would be fixed in balance testing / patches. Assuming this system was implemented.


It's an interesting idea, but I have to wonder how much work it would take just to even TRY it given it would probably require massive code rewrites for ASFs, and that's a lot of manpower and resources spent on a gamble.

HE: Does 500points Kinetic and 400missile damage (roughly 2/3rd old FBomb values). Splash of 20m.  Fairly inexpensive.

So with the Sulla's 9 available bombs, times 0.6666666666666666667, gives you 6.000000003 F bombs worth of damage, along with your existing weapons.   Oh yeah all this with no additional weight.  I still think its a flawed design, unless your bombs equated to the damage equivalent of an AC20 or something more reallistic.

[(TLL) Heretic]

Uh, no. He's said multiple times now that the individual bombs are a lot weaker than firebombs. If the numbers don't add up properly, then that's something which would be fixed in balance testing / patches. Assuming this system was implemented.


It's an interesting idea, but I have to wonder how much work it would take just to even TRY it given it would probably require massive code rewrites for ASFs, and that's a lot of manpower and resources spent on a gamble.

HE: Does 500points Kinetic and 400missile damage (roughly 2/3rd old FBomb values). Splash of 20m.  Fairly inexpensive.

So with the Sulla's 9 available bombs, times 0.6666666666666666667, gives you 6.000000003 F bombs worth of damage, along with your existing weapons.   Oh yeah all this with no additional weight.  I still think its a flawed design, unless your bombs equated to the damage equivalent of an AC20 or something more reallistic.

Yeah your numbers are right, strictly speaking they should have an IS PPCs worth of damage (474/474) but there's 2 things that I already said that made me suggest the slightly higher numbers:
1) That Sulla would be at massively reduced maneuverability and speed, easy pickings for AA, stream-lined ASF (no bombs) and random groundfire alike; there should be a reward for the payoff and 1 IS PPCs damage seems pretty poor reward, but again it would have to be tested.
2) The Balancing concept of Bomb Doors: In my example would limit that Sulla, as a medium ASF to a maximum of 3 Bomb Doors (meaning ~6s reload x3 to drop all 9 bombs), that's 2 current FBombs worth of firepower for each bombload (but all 3 need direct hist instead of 2, placement of bomb-doors, ie. where the bombs spawn can effect this also I assume).

The main change is that Bombers are now no-longer a separate variant that strips weapons to be as maneuverable as the Primes, they are the Primes etc. with bombs loaded, and incremental penalties for carrying them, sure ASF pilots that are planning AA work will never load them, some folks will load up just the minimum to stay almost as maneuverable and drop them either when they see an enemy ASF or when they finish a strafing run with the primary weapons.

Strafing is something we should encourage. Bombers would also be easier for AA to hit under an Aerotech based system, and this should be encouraged too.

EDIT: And BTW an AC20 is something like 800/800 damage, so that'd be insane buff to the bombs from what I suggested 
EDIT: IS PPC damage correction.

[[CW]Aresye]

1) That Sulla would be at massively reduced maneuverability and speed, easy pickings for AA, stream-lined ASF (no bombs) and random groundfire alike; there should be a reward for the payoff and 1 IS PPCs damage seems pretty poor reward, but again it would have to be tested.

The only problem with reduced maneuverability and speed based on weapon loadouts, is that the devs themselves are not even sure how to add reduced maneuverability and speed to damage characteristics.

Most of the anger towards ASF is related to the fact that they have no consequences for taking damage compared to mechs.  Tanks seem to get a decent bit of disdain for the same reason.  I personally feel more time should be focused on improving the flight characteristics and damage model as much as possible.