Author Topic: The incredible power of AC/20s  (Read 4159 times)

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Offline Aposiopesis

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The incredible power of AC/20s
« on: August 11, 2012, 03:49:05 PM »
I thought some of you would find this interesting. I decided to figure out how exactly AC/20s fire.

First, I noted in one of the novels that Yen-Lo-Wang, which has a Pontiac 100 AC/20 (100mm shells) and 3 tons of AC/20 ammo has 201 shots. Allard dumped a full load of AC/20 ammo, which is stated to be 200 shots, plus the one he had stuck in the gun itself. Divide that 201 by the 3 tons and you get 67 shots per ton.

Now, as each ton of CBT ammo has 5 'shots', 67/5 = 13.4 And each CBT round represents 10 seconds. So the Pontiac 100 AC/20 is firing 13.4 rounds every 10 seconds, or 13.4 * 6 = 80.4 rounds per minute. That's 80.4 rounds per minute of 100mm ammo. That's pretty frightening.

Now as far as I know, the Pontiac 100 is the small round size of AC/20s. The largest I believe is 205mm. For the sake of argument lets say that the 205mm shoots exactly 1 round per 10 seconds (the absolute minimum using CBT as a base). Or 6 rounds per minute.

A range of 100-205mm puts the average AC/20 at around 150-155mm. Let's go with 150mm. Now, if you split the firing rate distance between 205mm and 100mm you get 43 rounds per minute. However, as round size:firing rate tends to be an exponential curve, it's more like that the 150mm is firing somewhere between 45-55 rounds per minute.

A couple reference points:

The M256 120mm cannon mounted by the Abrams tank fires at roughly 6 rounds per minute.

The 5 inch (127mm) naval gun mounted by a modern Arleigh Burke class destroyer is capable of 15-20 rounds per minute.

The 8 inch (~205mm) naval guns seen on ships in the mid 20th century could fire about 4 rounds per minute (compare to the minimum of 6 per minute of the 205mm AC/20s above).

In relation to MWLL, a popular platform for plain AC/20s, the Demolisher, packs 185mm Chemjets. Given all the above info I'd say the current setup of MWLL has the firing rates for the large bore ACs pretty well done.




Offline ~SJ~KorbinWimmer

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Re: The incredible power of AC/20s
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2012, 04:07:20 PM »
hurray

Offline ~SJ~ Blhurr

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Re: The incredible power of AC/20s
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2012, 04:27:07 PM »
Get this guy on mythbusters stat!
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Offline eRkkituo

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Re: The incredible power of AC/20s
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2012, 05:01:15 PM »
Get this guy on mythbusters stat!

They could use some numbers for a change - they've been "murkanized" a bit too much since the first few seasons.

Offline cyofee

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Re: The incredible power of AC/20s
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2012, 08:40:11 PM »
I thought some of you would find this interesting. I decided to figure out how exactly AC/20s fire.

First, I noted in one of the novels that Yen-Lo-Wang, which has a Pontiac 100 AC/20 (100mm shells) and 3 tons of AC/20 ammo has 201 shots. Allard dumped a full load of AC/20 ammo, which is stated to be 200 shots, plus the one he had stuck in the gun itself. Divide that 201 by the 3 tons and you get 67 shots per ton.

Now, as each ton of CBT ammo has 5 'shots', 67/5 = 13.4 And each CBT round represents 10 seconds. So the Pontiac 100 AC/20 is firing 13.4 rounds every 10 seconds, or 13.4 * 6 = 80.4 rounds per minute. That's 80.4 rounds per minute of 100mm ammo. That's pretty frightening.

Now as far as I know, the Pontiac 100 is the small round size of AC/20s. The largest I believe is 205mm. For the sake of argument lets say that the 205mm shoots exactly 1 round per 10 seconds (the absolute minimum using CBT as a base). Or 6 rounds per minute.

A range of 100-205mm puts the average AC/20 at around 150-155mm. Let's go with 150mm. Now, if you split the firing rate distance between 205mm and 100mm you get 43 rounds per minute. However, as round size:firing rate tends to be an exponential curve, it's more like that the 150mm is firing somewhere between 45-55 rounds per minute.

A couple reference points:

The M256 120mm cannon mounted by the Abrams tank fires at roughly 6 rounds per minute.

The 5 inch (127mm) naval gun mounted by a modern Arleigh Burke class destroyer is capable of 15-20 rounds per minute.

The 8 inch (~205mm) naval guns seen on ships in the mid 20th century could fire about 4 rounds per minute (compare to the minimum of 6 per minute of the 205mm AC/20s above).

In relation to MWLL, a popular platform for plain AC/20s, the Demolisher, packs 185mm Chemjets. Given all the above info I'd say the current setup of MWLL has the firing rates for the large bore ACs pretty well done.
You can't assume that the same laws of physics or mathematics apply in the Battletech universe, since they obviously don't.

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Re: The incredible power of AC/20s
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2012, 09:05:32 PM »
I thought some of you would find this interesting. I decided to figure out how exactly AC/20s fire.

First, I noted in one of the novels that Yen-Lo-Wang, which has a Pontiac 100 AC/20 (100mm shells) and 3 tons of AC/20 ammo has 201 shots. Allard dumped a full load of AC/20 ammo, which is stated to be 200 shots, plus the one he had stuck in the gun itself. Divide that 201 by the 3 tons and you get 67 shots per ton.

Now, as each ton of CBT ammo has 5 'shots', 67/5 = 13.4 And each CBT round represents 10 seconds. So the Pontiac 100 AC/20 is firing 13.4 rounds every 10 seconds, or 13.4 * 6 = 80.4 rounds per minute. That's 80.4 rounds per minute of 100mm ammo. That's pretty frightening.

Now as far as I know, the Pontiac 100 is the small round size of AC/20s. The largest I believe is 205mm. For the sake of argument lets say that the 205mm shoots exactly 1 round per 10 seconds (the absolute minimum using CBT as a base). Or 6 rounds per minute.

A range of 100-205mm puts the average AC/20 at around 150-155mm. Let's go with 150mm. Now, if you split the firing rate distance between 205mm and 100mm you get 43 rounds per minute. However, as round size:firing rate tends to be an exponential curve, it's more like that the 150mm is firing somewhere between 45-55 rounds per minute.

A couple reference points:

The M256 120mm cannon mounted by the Abrams tank fires at roughly 6 rounds per minute.

The 5 inch (127mm) naval gun mounted by a modern Arleigh Burke class destroyer is capable of 15-20 rounds per minute.

The 8 inch (~205mm) naval guns seen on ships in the mid 20th century could fire about 4 rounds per minute (compare to the minimum of 6 per minute of the 205mm AC/20s above).

In relation to MWLL, a popular platform for plain AC/20s, the Demolisher, packs 185mm Chemjets. Given all the above info I'd say the current setup of MWLL has the firing rates for the large bore ACs pretty well done.
You can't assume that the same laws of physics or mathematics apply in the Battletech universe, since they obviously don't.

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You can't take that from us.
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Offline Aposiopesis

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Re: The incredible power of AC/20s
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2012, 09:11:11 PM »
You can't assume that the same laws of physics or mathematics apply in the Battletech universe, since they obviously don't.

I'm not sure what your point is, nor am I sure as to what assumptions you are referencing.

All of my numbers, with the exception of the mid ranges I offered for mere speculation, are hard numbers based off of Battletech sources.

The smallest AC/20 projectile size is, to my knowledge, 100mm. The largest is 205mm.

Each turn in CBT represents 10 seconds. This is stated in source material.

The folks of the CBT universe still use Terran time as an accepted standard time. This is stated over and over again in the literature. As we all know, a Terran minute has 60 seconds.

As an AC/20 can fire once per turn with no restrictions, and a turn lasts 10 seconds, it is safe to reason that even the slowest firing of AC/20s fire at least one round per 10 seconds, or at least 6 rounds per minute.

Using ammo numbers given by the novels, combined with CBT mech info and CBT rules/timing, I calculated that the 100mm Pontiac 100 AC/20 fires 80.4 rounds/minute.

Given the above, we know that (non-ultra) AC/20s range in sizes from 100mm to 205mm and can fire at rates of a minimum of 6 rounds per minute up to at least 80.4 rounds/minute. There may be even faster firing AC/20s in a similar or larger size, but we know from literature that some AC/20s are capable of at least 80.4 rounds/minute and that's impressive.

It's stated quite plainly in numerous pieces of literature that different manufactured autocannons work differently. Some blast big holes every few seconds and some act more like the Pontiac 100. Reading enough of the fiction also gives the impression that as a tendency (though there are exceptions), the larger the autocannon, the slower its rate of fire tends to be.

Hence, the only assumption made is when I speculate about the average AC/20 round size/firing rate, and even then those assumptions have a solid basis in both the fiction and rules literature.

There are enough examples of mathematics in the literature to be able to figure out that basic arithmetic is calculated the same in the Battletech universe as the real world. That may change at more advanced levels of mathematics, but none of the above work requires anything but basic skills which are easily demonstrated as applicable via the literature.

Quiet, you. He's saying we did something right.
You can't take that from us.

I was a huge not-fan of the oooold MWLL AC10s/20s (Way too MW4ish), but I love them now (well, except AC10s needing some balance love). The AC10s/20s of the last couple of versions have seemed much more like the stuff you read in the novels come to life. MWLL has gone that way in general the last couple versions and it makes me smile. I feel like I'm playing Battletech, not CBT translated to a computer screen nor MW4, but the actual feel of the Battletech universe.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 09:16:24 PM by Aposiopesis »

Offline =CJW=YalK

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Re: The incredible power of AC/20s
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2012, 10:03:57 PM »
*claps*

Karma for you


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Offline Aposiopesis

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Re: The incredible power of AC/20s
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2012, 09:43:45 AM »
Adding a little more fun to this, the Luxor AC/10 carried by the Centurion (don't remember the size but I think 100mm) fires at exactly half the Pontiac, so 40.2 rounds per minute. Note that some weapons fire in clips; the Pontiac 100 is actually one of them. Over the course of a minute, it fires 80.4 rounds per minute but its actual fire rate is significantly higher through the clip.

Some autocannons go:

BOOM--reload --BOOM--reload...

Others go:

Boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom...

And yet others go:

boomboomboomboombooom--reload--boomboomboomboomboom--reload...

One of the 150mm ones, don't remember the model offhand, does 60 rounds per minute. A shot a second of 150mm shells... ouch.

Offline (TLL) Heretic

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Re: The incredible power of AC/20s
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2012, 12:33:33 PM »

What's really going to blow your mind is that you can take the ammo from the Pontiac 100 AC/20 and shove it into a Chemjet AC/20 or any other class 20 Autocannon, such as a Ultra AC/20, LB-20X or RAC/20 (you would have to invent that last one first though ;) )....regardless of bore size or firing method (Clip, Belt or Single-shot)...........freaky!  :D


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Offline SJ SaKhan Wolf

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Re: The incredible power of AC/20s
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2012, 01:07:48 PM »

What's really going to blow your mind is that you can take the ammo from the Pontiac 100 AC/20 and shove it into a Chemjet AC/20 or any other class 20 Autocannon, such as a Ultra AC/20, LB-20X or RAC/20 (you would have to invent that last one first though ;) )....regardless of bore size or firing method (Clip, Belt or Single-shot)...........freaky!  :D

And you can shove those clips into the legs of the mechs and they will magically traverse the innards en route to the gun at the end of your mech's arm on the opposite side of the body. I love the magic of BT!
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Offline Nebfer

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Re: The incredible power of AC/20s
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2012, 12:43:17 AM »
Some things to note While a turn in 10 seconds it dose not mean that the weapon fires for the entire duration of the turn, in fact the current RPG splits the 10 second turn in to two 5 second turns with damage resolutions taking place in the same half turn (so at most 5 seconds), and the older Solaris 7 rules had 2.5 second turns, with the attack declaration and damage resolutions taking place in the same turn (so at most 2.5 seconds).

So a Autocannon in fact only fires for a second or two, then cools down, and reloads for the next burst (in short B-tech ACs behave some what like the famous 40mm Bofors gun).

B-tech autocannons fire 22.2, 50, 100 and 200kg worth of munitions per "burst" (twice that for Ultras)

A 203mm Shell is between 90 and 150kg for a shell, but thats for older WW2 era ammo (and the lighter end is in fact land based guns vs naval) with some 30-50kg of propellant.

An interesting thing to note is that modern APFSDS & HEAT shells are roughly half that of WW2 era APCBC shells.

So it would not be to hard to see a 203mm AC-20 firing two rounds in a burst...

A list of Autocannons calibers by brand

================================
Machineguns
================================
20mm Gatling               = 20mm (TRO 3039) scorpion tank entry (same entry mentions 30mm based guns)
M100                            = 12.7mm (lethal heritage) -Phawk
Johnston minigun          = 20mm (temptation by war) Ranger VV1 -described as caseless (ch 14)
Scattergun                    = 20mm (temptation by war) DI Schmitt
22mm Gatling                = 22mm (TRO 3075) JES 1 entry
================================
Class 2 Autocannons
================================
Whirlwind-L               = 32mm (Binding force) BlackJack BJ-1
Whirlwind-L               = 30mm (Threads of ambition) Blackjack BJ-1
SarLon                       = 30mm (TRO 3026) Warrior VTOL
Thor RAC-2                = 40mm (TRO 3058) Warrior VTOL
Mydron Model D-rf (Ultra) = 20mm (Imminent Crisis) Jagermech III 
Mydron Model D                = 30mm (Threads of ambition) Jagermech
Defiance Shredder LBX     = 20mm (Fortress republic) -Catapult
================================
Class 5 Autocannons
================================
GM Nova 5  Ultra      = 50mm (Binding force) -cataphract
GM Nova 5  Ultra      = 40mm (Illusions of victory) -Cataphract
GM Whirlwind           = 120mm (Thunder ridge & Wolves on the border) -Marauder
GM Whirlwind           = 50mm (killing field) -Marauder
Armstrong J11          = 80mm or 90mm (Thunder ridge, same book) -Shadow Hawk
Imperator-A              = 80mm (Price of Glory) -Riflemen
Whirlwind                 = 60mm (Price of glory) -Wolverine
Whirlwind                 = 90mm (Wolves on the border) -Wolverine
Imperator Ultra AC-5  = 80mm (Storms of fate) -Vulcan & Daikyu
Armstrong AC-5        = 50mm (Double blind) -Clint
Armstrong AC-5        = 105mm (TRO 3075) -Merkava Hvy Tank
Pontiac Light             = 40mm (Illusions of victory) -Striker mech
Snake killer LAC-5       = 60mm (Battlecorps) -Shadowhawk-9D
Mydron Model RC RAC5  = 50mm (A call to arms & fortress republic) -Legionnaire & Rifleman
Mydron Tornado  RAC5   = 50mm (By Temptations and By War) -DI Schmitt
Defiance type J AC-5      = 75mm (Heir to the dragon) -Zeus 6S
================================
Class 10 Autocannons
================================
Luxor-D                      = 80mm (Price of glory, Ghost of winter) -centurion
Mydron Excel UAC       = 80mm (Patriots and tyrants) -Enforcer
Mydron Excel LBX       = 80mm (Patriots and styrene) -Dragon Fire
Mydron Excel LBX       = 80mm (Illusions of victory)  -Cataphract
Defiance Disintegrator?= 100mm (end game) -Banshee
Mydron Model B         = 80mm (Flash point) -Bushwacker
Federated AC-10        = 80mm (Flash point) -Enforcer
Imperator Code Red     = 100mm (Flashpoint) -Challenger MBT
KaliYama                       = 80mm (Illusions of victory) -Orion
Imperator Code Red     = 80mm (Illusions of victory) -Emperor
Imperator-B                  = 80mm (Warrior en Guard) Urbanmech (implied to be smiler in caliber as the Riflemen)
================================
Class 20 Autocannons
================================
Death Giver                = 100mm (Heir to the dragon) -Atlas
Pontiac 100                = 100mm (Heir to the dragon) -Victor
Armstrong                  = 120mm (binding force) -Von Luckner MBT
Chemjet                     = 185mm (TRO 3026) -Demolisher I tank
Crusher SH                 = 150mm (TRO 3026) -Hetzer Assault gun (or 120mm Threads of ambition)
Defiance Thunder Ultra     = 120mm (Patriots and Tyrants) -Blitzkrieg
Defiance Disintegrator LBX = 120mm (Patriots and Tyrants) -Barghest -Illusions of victory & The Dying time as well
Kali Yama Big Bore              = 120mm (Threads of ambition) -Thunder
Tomodzuru                          = 180mm (Era Report 3052) -Hunchback
================================
Unknown types
================================
Jagermech "500mm" AC (Double blind)  ::)
Mackie 5S AC-5 = 110mm (Birth of a King scenario)
Jagermech 7F RAC-5 = 80mm (End Game) -can not find what model these are, but the two known RAC-5s are said to be 50mm...
Templar omni, Grayson config AC-5 = 40mm (Imminent Crisis)
Blackjack omni LBX-10 = 80mm (Binding force)


Clan (TRO 3060 for the most part)
Type 9 UAC 10  = 75mm
Type 10 UAC 20 = 120mm (Fortress republic) SM1 Tank Destroyer
Type 20 UAC 20 = 200mm (Battlecorps, Fire Scorpion 3 entry)
Type 25 UAC 2  = 50mm
Type 31 UAC 5  = 40mm
Type Cov LBX-10 = 75mm (their are two sizes, the Mars says it's 150mm, but the Ishtar says 75mm)
Type COVR-X LBX-5 =40mm




Offline S7alker117

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Re: The incredible power of AC/20s
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2012, 02:11:59 PM »
Some things to note While a turn in 10 seconds it dose not mean that the weapon fires for the entire duration of the turn, in fact the current RPG splits the 10 second turn in to two 5 second turns with damage resolutions taking place in the same half turn (so at most 5 seconds), and the older Solaris 7 rules had 2.5 second turns, with the attack declaration and damage resolutions taking place in the same turn (so at most 2.5 seconds).

So a Autocannon in fact only fires for a second or two, then cools down, and reloads for the next burst (in short B-tech ACs behave some what like the famous 40mm Bofors gun).

B-tech autocannons fire 22.2, 50, 100 and 200kg worth of munitions per "burst" (twice that for Ultras)

A 203mm Shell is between 90 and 150kg for a shell, but thats for older WW2 era ammo (and the lighter end is in fact land based guns vs naval) with some 30-50kg of propellant.

An interesting thing to note is that modern APFSDS & HEAT shells are roughly half that of WW2 era APCBC shells.

So it would not be to hard to see a 203mm AC-20 firing two rounds in a burst...

A list of Autocannons calibers by brand

================================
Machineguns
================================
20mm Gatling               = 20mm (TRO 3039) scorpion tank entry (same entry mentions 30mm based guns)
M100                            = 12.7mm (lethal heritage) -Phawk
Johnston minigun          = 20mm (temptation by war) Ranger VV1 -described as caseless (ch 14)
Scattergun                    = 20mm (temptation by war) DI Schmitt
22mm Gatling                = 22mm (TRO 3075) JES 1 entry
================================
Class 2 Autocannons
================================
Whirlwind-L               = 32mm (Binding force) BlackJack BJ-1
Whirlwind-L               = 30mm (Threads of ambition) Blackjack BJ-1
SarLon                       = 30mm (TRO 3026) Warrior VTOL
Thor RAC-2                = 40mm (TRO 3058) Warrior VTOL
Mydron Model D-rf (Ultra) = 20mm (Imminent Crisis) Jagermech III 
Mydron Model D                = 30mm (Threads of ambition) Jagermech
Defiance Shredder LBX     = 20mm (Fortress republic) -Catapult
================================
Class 5 Autocannons
================================
GM Nova 5  Ultra      = 50mm (Binding force) -cataphract
GM Nova 5  Ultra      = 40mm (Illusions of victory) -Cataphract
GM Whirlwind           = 120mm (Thunder ridge & Wolves on the border) -Marauder
GM Whirlwind           = 50mm (killing field) -Marauder
Armstrong J11          = 80mm or 90mm (Thunder ridge, same book) -Shadow Hawk
Imperator-A              = 80mm (Price of Glory) -Riflemen
Whirlwind                 = 60mm (Price of glory) -Wolverine
Whirlwind                 = 90mm (Wolves on the border) -Wolverine
Imperator Ultra AC-5  = 80mm (Storms of fate) -Vulcan & Daikyu
Armstrong AC-5        = 50mm (Double blind) -Clint
Armstrong AC-5        = 105mm (TRO 3075) -Merkava Hvy Tank
Pontiac Light             = 40mm (Illusions of victory) -Striker mech
Snake killer LAC-5       = 60mm (Battlecorps) -Shadowhawk-9D
Mydron Model RC RAC5  = 50mm (A call to arms & fortress republic) -Legionnaire & Rifleman
Mydron Tornado  RAC5   = 50mm (By Temptations and By War) -DI Schmitt
Defiance type J AC-5      = 75mm (Heir to the dragon) -Zeus 6S
================================
Class 10 Autocannons
================================
Luxor-D                      = 80mm (Price of glory, Ghost of winter) -centurion
Mydron Excel UAC       = 80mm (Patriots and tyrants) -Enforcer
Mydron Excel LBX       = 80mm (Patriots and styrene) -Dragon Fire
Mydron Excel LBX       = 80mm (Illusions of victory)  -Cataphract
Defiance Disintegrator?= 100mm (end game) -Banshee
Mydron Model B         = 80mm (Flash point) -Bushwacker
Federated AC-10        = 80mm (Flash point) -Enforcer
Imperator Code Red     = 100mm (Flashpoint) -Challenger MBT
KaliYama                       = 80mm (Illusions of victory) -Orion
Imperator Code Red     = 80mm (Illusions of victory) -Emperor
Imperator-B                  = 80mm (Warrior en Guard) Urbanmech (implied to be smiler in caliber as the Riflemen)
================================
Class 20 Autocannons
================================
Death Giver                = 100mm (Heir to the dragon) -Atlas
Pontiac 100                = 100mm (Heir to the dragon) -Victor
Armstrong                  = 120mm (binding force) -Von Luckner MBT
Chemjet                     = 185mm (TRO 3026) -Demolisher I tank
Crusher SH                 = 150mm (TRO 3026) -Hetzer Assault gun (or 120mm Threads of ambition)
Defiance Thunder Ultra     = 120mm (Patriots and Tyrants) -Blitzkrieg
Defiance Disintegrator LBX = 120mm (Patriots and Tyrants) -Barghest -Illusions of victory & The Dying time as well
Kali Yama Big Bore              = 120mm (Threads of ambition) -Thunder
Tomodzuru                          = 180mm (Era Report 3052) -Hunchback
================================
Unknown types
================================
Jagermech "500mm" AC (Double blind)  ::)
Mackie 5S AC-5 = 110mm (Birth of a King scenario)
Jagermech 7F RAC-5 = 80mm (End Game) -can not find what model these are, but the two known RAC-5s are said to be 50mm...
Templar omni, Grayson config AC-5 = 40mm (Imminent Crisis)
Blackjack omni LBX-10 = 80mm (Binding force)


Clan (TRO 3060 for the most part)
Type 9 UAC 10  = 75mm
Type 10 UAC 20 = 120mm (Fortress republic) SM1 Tank Destroyer
Type 20 UAC 20 = 200mm (Battlecorps, Fire Scorpion 3 entry)
Type 25 UAC 2  = 50mm
Type 31 UAC 5  = 40mm
Type Cov LBX-10 = 75mm (their are two sizes, the Mars says it's 150mm, but the Ishtar says 75mm)
Type COVR-X LBX-5 =40mm





This is amazingly useful. Thanks! :)
ASSUMING CONTROL OF THIS FORM

OO_OO