Author Topic: Chaos March - Feedback Thread  (Read 6921 times)

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Offline thEClaw

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Re: Chaos March - Feedback Thread
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2015, 07:00:58 AM »
BV was just a term I used form the boardgame to rate each variant by its usefulness.
Ah, ok. Then it's probably a useful criterion.

If you actually want to try random drop-lists, how long until you need the program to provide a usable interface (I need at least a work-day at my current speed, so it won't happen before next week)? Do you want to centralize the generation so nobody can cheat by adding custom, overpowered criteria ("only Madcats")? How about a "no BS"-criterion ("max 1 hover, no BA, no Sparrowhawks"? :P) Any use for a mobile version of the generator?

Offline duelist

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Re: Chaos March - Feedback Thread
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2015, 07:42:09 AM »
I try to keep from posting too much. But figured an update was in order:
These look like some great ideas guys  8)

Looks like this weekend will still be asset pools.
So for this weekend, Saturday we will test 2 ideas:

1) Enforce the drop list creation time limit. Did a test run last Sunday and it seemed to go well. Basically each team gets a reasonable time limit, say 15-20 minutes. If they go over, the supervisor finishes the list. Each team has the five minute build timer to assign stuff if needed.
2) Try this mini tournament idea. Should run similar to Invictus' old 2v2. I will try to get details up soon.

Sunday will test one more idea:

3) Create 2 map drop lists at once. This is a variation of Starch1ld's 4 at once idea.


Assuming this new stuff you are all working on is ready to test, Friday January 30th will try it all out with a test run. Then we can take the feedback and move from there.

I am continuing to use the old drop calcs as I need clarification from Starch1ld if he intends us to have access to the other versions.

It is great to see many people working together in the community. Keep posting these great ideas as we continue to make this event better.

Offline thEClaw

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Re: Chaos March - Feedback Thread
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2015, 08:14:12 AM »
Looks like this weekend will still be asset pools.
Well, if you wanted to try out random lists already, you could. It's just a little difficult to set up new criteria via the corresponding .ini file. I could help with that. Or just give you an amount of lists (10, 50... - however high the need is) to try some out. All I need is a sane set of criteria.

Offline cest73

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Re: Chaos March - Feedback Thread
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2015, 08:37:52 PM »
i would sugest 2v2 BA only matches?  ;D
we do it anyways in hangars, why not take it to dedicated map?
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Offline BuRNeR

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Re: Chaos March - Feedback Thread
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2015, 11:03:47 AM »
i would sugest 2v2 BA only matches?  ;D
we do it anyways in hangars, why not take it to dedicated map?

look here http://forum.mechlivinglegends.net/index.php/topic,20508.0.html , for our 3rd campaign ;)


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Offline thEClaw

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Re: Chaos March - Feedback Thread
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2015, 08:18:28 PM »
The interface is mostly done now - despite some smaller hiccups the program should be in a usable state. There is still a single problem to sort out, then maybe I can play around with the generator and improve a couple things...but that's something I don't want to guarantee.
The speed of the generator depends highly on the sanity of the settings - I just tried a couple of combinations and if, for example, BV and tonnage are chosen "conservatively" (i.e. pretty low) and the price is chosen pretty high, and only minor deviations from the entered values are allowed, the generation might just take an eternity. On the other hand, if criteria are picked with some brain, the generation will not take more than a couple of seconds. :)

Here we go:


PS: I am looking for a better name, so if anybody has an idea...^^

Offline Starch1ld

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Re: Chaos March - Feedback Thread
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2015, 03:24:51 PM »
The interface is mostly done now - despite some smaller hiccups the program should be in a usable state. There is still a single problem to sort out, then maybe I can play around with the generator and improve a couple things...but that's something I don't want to guarantee.
The speed of the generator depends highly on the sanity of the settings - I just tried a couple of combinations and if, for example, BV and tonnage are chosen "conservatively" (i.e. pretty low) and the price is chosen pretty high, and only minor deviations from the entered values are allowed, the generation might just take an eternity. On the other hand, if criteria are picked with some brain, the generation will not take more than a couple of seconds. :)


PS: I am looking for a better name, so if anybody has an idea...^^
Wow, nice work! A completely customizable droplist generator! That's exactly what we needed!
Better name? "MWLL Drop List Generator" will be fine, I guess

Offline thEClaw

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Re: Chaos March - Feedback Thread
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2015, 03:32:22 PM »
I went with "MWLL-RDLG", short for "Random Drop List Generator"^^.

The hiccups and smallish problems are gone now, I am currently preparing everything to compile a Windows-version. I will make a thread about it (reminds me of the good old times...I tend to wonder where we could be today if somebody would have had the ingenious foresight back then to slaughter every living being at Microsoft and IGP...sigh), give an update here and hope that the generator sees some testing soon. :)

Offline Starch1ld

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Re: Chaos March - Feedback Thread
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2015, 04:25:06 PM »
Good! Hope to see it soon :)
Oh, and btw, Partisan is meant to weigh 50 tons, Donar 25 and APC 25. BV would not work with the canonical tonnage of these assets

Offline thEClaw

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Re: Chaos March - Feedback Thread
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2015, 04:42:36 PM »
No, I won't change the weights of those things. That's like urinating on a 1000-year-old altar! (Which I might do some day...unlike changing the Partisans weight!)

The program is up. It would be nice if somebody could at least try to run it, I might have forgotten to ship a dll or two. Other feedback is welcome, too, of course.

Offline Starch1ld

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Re: Chaos March - Feedback Thread
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2015, 03:03:26 AM »
meh i'll just post the best solution IMO. Didn't want to share it before because reasons.
There it is

A trifecta of Cbill cost, tonnage, and BV might be the solution as BV and tonnage has gotten fairly close if enough effort is put into the droplist. But that has always been the problem, putting THAT much effort into a droplist on the spot is just not that fun for some people and it tends to take forever.
This is the best idea, but it needs correct implementation:

Just pre-generate random drop decks of 5 and 4 assets using this idea [BV, Tonnage and C-Bills limits], and hard lock player numbers to only 4,5,8,9,10,12,13 players per team so noone will have to build droplists. That would give more flexibility.

If a team got 8 players, for example, it would be assigned 2x 4assets decks.
If a team got 9 players, it would be assigned 1x 4asset deck and 1x 5 assets deck.

Easy.

Also, balance decks properly. They should all be balanced the same way, so ANY 4-player deck could fight against ANY 5-player one. In this way we could have asymmetrical team without problems. Limit asimmetrycal teams to: 4vs5, 8vs9 and 12vs13.
Also, avoid Shiva As and Donar As, and flying assets in general if we have less than 8 players per team.

P.S:Would be cool if you made drop decks using Clan Stars and IS Lances (clan only in 5-star decks, IS only in 4-star decks), but that would be really hard to balance.

Basically we pre-generate some hundreds of dropdecks (with 4 or 5 assets), and then assign few of them [maybe 10-15 of each size] to the teams right before the games start.
That's the idea. There is also a possibility to integrate some persistency elements.
I also have some ideas of how to implement all of this stuff in the drop calculators, but meh, got other stuff to do here.

Could something like this work?

Code: [Select]
Picked the following assets (4/4 in total) after 9 failed tries (0.700s):
       100 t, 128397 CBills, 3    BV, Atlas B (Inner Sphere) - AECM, EOptics, 4 DHS - 1 HGauss, 2 PPC, 2 SRM6
        70 t,  90546 CBills, 1    BV, Avatar G (Inner Sphere) - Radar, EOptics, 5 DHS - 2 SRM2, 2 MBL, 2 RAC2, 2 PPC
        30 t,  41199 CBills, 3    BV, Osiris C (Inner Sphere) - ImprJJ, EOptics, 2 DHS - 2 Mgun, 2 PPC
        50 t,  67597 CBills, 2    BV, Uziel E (Inner Sphere) - MASC, StndJJ, EOptics, 6 DHS - 1 NARC, 2 LPL
Total: 250 t, 327739 CBills, 2.25 BV

Picked the following assets (4/4 in total) after 23 failed tries (0.703s):
       100 t, 109500 CBills, 2    BV, Atlas D (Inner Sphere) - 5 HS - 1 AC20, 4 MBL, 1 DSRM6, 1 LRM20
        30 t,  44449 CBills, 2    BV, Osiris A (Inner Sphere) - ImprJJ, EOptics, 3 DHS - 1 ERMBL, 2 ERLBL
        50 t,  67597 CBills, 2    BV, Uziel E (Inner Sphere) - MASC, StndJJ, EOptics, 6 DHS - 1 NARC, 2 LPL
        70 t,  95600 CBills, 3    BV, Warhammer A (Inner Sphere) - BHP, GECM, EOptics, 1 LAMS - 1 ELRM15, 2 LtGauss, 2 Mgun
Total: 250 t, 317146 CBills, 2.25 BV

Picked the following assets (4/4 in total) after 66 failed tries (1.978s):
        55 t,  70700 CBills, 2    BV, Bushwacker F (Inner Sphere) - 2 DHS - 1 MRM30, 2 LBL, 2 ERMBL
        90 t, 104996 CBills, 2    BV, Mauler F (Inner Sphere) - EOptics, 2 HS - 2 LRM10, 2 LBL, 4 UAC5
        30 t,  41199 CBills, 3    BV, Osiris C (Inner Sphere) - ImprJJ, EOptics, 2 DHS - 2 Mgun, 2 PPC
        75 t,  96799 CBills, 2    BV, Thanatos Prime (Inner Sphere) - GECM, C3, StndJJ, 6 DHS - 1 MRM30, 2 ERMBL, 1 ERLBL, 1 MPL
Total: 250 t, 313694 CBills, 2.25 BV

Picked the following assets (4/4 in total) after 20 failed tries (0.630s):
       100 t, 169846 CBills, 5    BV, Fafnir C (Inner Sphere) - EOptics, 1 DHS - 2 iHGauss, 2 ERLBL
        45 t,  51898 CBills, 1    BV, Hollander II C (Inner Sphere) - ImprJJ, EOptics - 1 RAC5, 2 UAC2
        35 t,  37548 CBills, 1    BV, Owens E (Inner Sphere) - BAP, 1 HS - 2 MRM20
        70 t,  92000 CBills, 2    BV, Warhammer F (Inner Sphere) - 1 LAMS - 2 RAC5, 2 MBL, 1 LBX10
Total: 250 t, 351292 CBills, 2.25 BV

Picked the following assets (5/5 in total) after 101 failed tries (4.528s):
        25 t,  61523 CBills, 2    BV, Donar E (Clan) - Radar, 4 DHS - 1 CHLL, 6 CERSBL
        85 t, 124497 CBills, 2    BV, Masakari G (Clan) - EOptics, 5 DHS - 4 CLBX5, 2 CERLBL, 4 CERSBL, 1 CSRM4
        70 t,  99896 CBills, 1    BV, Novacat C (Clan) - EOptics, 5 DHS - 2 CLPL, 1 CLBX5, 2 CUAC5
        45 t,  62948 CBills, 1    BV, Shadowcat F (Clan) - StndJJ, EOptics - 3 CLBX5, 2 CERMBL
        25 t,  46997 CBills, 3    BV, Solitaire A (Clan) - Radar, EOptics, 4 DHS - 4 CERSBL, 1 CERLBL, 1 CERMBL
Total: 250 t, 395861 CBills, 1.80 BV

Picked the following assets (5/5 in total) after 131 failed tries (5.279s):
        55 t,  77848 CBills, 2    BV, Black Lanner B (Clan) - C3, MASC, 5 DHS - 6 CERSBL, 1 TAG, 1 CDSRM4, 1 CHLL
        25 t,  48498 CBills, 1    BV, Donar G (Clan) - Radar, EOptics - 1 CUAC10, 2 CERSBL
        85 t, 128722 CBills, 3    BV, Masakari C (Clan) - 8 DHS - 4 CHML, 2 CLBX10, 4 CERSBL, 1 CSSRM4
        25 t,  29599 CBills, 1    BV, Solitaire G (Clan) - Radar - 2 CERSBL, 1 CUAC10
        60 t,  91250 CBills, 2    BV, Vulture F (Clan) - EOptics, 3 DHS - 2 CDSSRM4, 1 CERPPC, 1 CLBX10
Total: 250 t, 375917 CBills, 1.80 BV

Picked the following assets (5/5 in total) after 307 failed tries (11.962s):
        85 t, 129547 CBills, 1    BV, Masakari F (Clan) - EOptics, 8 DHS - 2 CHLL, 2 CUAC5, 1 ATM12
        35 t,  75798 CBills, 3    BV, Puma C (Clan) - GECM, MASC, 4 DHS - 2 Mgun, 6 CERMBL
        45 t,  73046 CBills, 2    BV, Shadowcat Prime (Clan) - MASC, StndJJ, EOptics, 1 DHS - 2 CERMBL, 1 CGauss
        25 t,  29599 CBills, 1    BV, Solitaire G (Clan) - Radar - 2 CERSBL, 1 CUAC10
        60 t,  94750 CBills, 2    BV, Vulture Prime (Clan) - EOptics, 5 DHS - 2 CLRM15, 2 CLPL, 2 CMPL
Total: 250 t, 402740 CBills, 1.80 BV

Picked the following assets (5/5 in total) after 305 failed tries (12.557s):
        30 t,  46349 CBills, 1    BV, Hephaestus C (Clan) - BAP, AECM, C3, EOptics - 1 TAG, 1 CHSL, 1 CLRM15
        65 t, 102500 CBills, 3    BV, Loki B (Clan) - 11 DHS - 2 CHLL, 2 Mgun, 1 CUAC20
        85 t, 129547 CBills, 1    BV, Masakari F (Clan) - EOptics, 8 DHS - 2 CHLL, 2 CUAC5, 1 ATM12
        45 t,  69295 CBills, 3    BV, Shadowcat A (Clan) - MASC, ImprJJ, 1 DHS - 3 CERSBL, 1 CUAC20
        25 t,  29599 CBills, 1    BV, Solitaire G (Clan) - Radar - 2 CERSBL, 1 CUAC10
Total: 250 t, 377290 CBills, 1.80 BV

Not sure about the puretech thing though. Maybe we need some testing on the field?

Offline thEClaw

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Re: Chaos March - Feedback Thread
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2015, 08:34:13 AM »
If you use the little save-button instead of copying the text, there will be a file created named "stored_lists.txt" - in there you not only see the currently shown drop-lists but also an abbreviated version of all the criteria you used to generate it. Might be useful if you want to share lists, so others understand how you got them. (Also, should there be any questions regarding the configuration of the settings, feel free to ask - I expect that things will be a little difficult at first since I probably didn't find the right balance between a minimalistic interface and an informative one.)

PS: Regarding the modified weights you mentioned: I think it's not a good idea to tweak things. You now have the ability to generate lists with respect to as many criteria as you wish, so balancing the different criteria against one another should not be necessary, it rather makes one of the criteria superfluous since its "discriminating power" is the same as for the other criterion. If you feel that a weight is too low or too high, the assets in question will just show up less often - and when they do, they will be balanced out by assets with a higher price and/or BV. In my opinion that is a good deal.

Offline duelist

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Re: Chaos March - Feedback Thread
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2015, 02:30:46 PM »
Random drop list test Friday January 30th. Time ? What is a good time for everyone?

Offline cest73

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Re: Chaos March - Feedback Thread
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2015, 05:26:28 PM »
i guess the usual time (19h UTC?) it's around 2000 here (+01 UTC Berlin, Bratislava, Belgrade)
 ::)
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Offline Starch1ld

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Re: Chaos March - Feedback Thread
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2015, 12:44:55 AM »
PS: Regarding the modified weights you mentioned: I think it's not a good idea to tweak things. You now have the ability to generate lists with respect to as many criteria as you wish, so balancing the different criteria against one another should not be necessary, it rather makes one of the criteria superfluous since its "discriminating power" is the same as for the other criterion. If you feel that a weight is too low or too high, the assets in question will just show up less often - and when they do, they will be balanced out by assets with a higher price and/or BV. In my opinion that is a good deal.
It's not only about weights, because the BVs are related to the assets' weights. Think about it: Partisan E is rated 1 at 50 tons. If it was 80 tons, its rating should be probably -2, since there is no way a Partisan E can kill an Awesome, a Morrigu or a Demolisher :)

Anyway yes, the criteria I used aren't actually good. Already made some changes, will post some examples as soon as I have time (I can't now, i'm on mobile :P)