Author Topic: Searchable graphical database of Mechs (or all assets) - work in progress  (Read 630 times)

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Offline cest73

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WIP of an searchable asset data base

done: few (2) mechs:
Osiris and Warhammer

files of interest:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7zyq6ubk3guzakp/mechs.zip?dl=0

Offline [IPA] Avatar

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Interesting idea for sure, but I'd like to know how exactly you prepare those charts. I'd be curious to read a detailed explanation of what we're seeing here, cause it sure looks good, but it's a bit all-over-the-place and inconsistent.

  • I can see the logic behind the firepower charts, but without some explanation (e.g. what the height of a column means), it's very hard to make sense of it. I sorta see the pattern, but it's inconsistent.
  • Armor chart is also messy (for me). How are the bracketed values next to the base armor value calculated (same goes for speed and price)? Why is 33 for the Osiris F and 29 for the G, when the G has cca 3600 more base armor? And then Prime has 33, despite having the same armor as the G? Does the Prime have +tons of armor above the base value? (I can't check this right now, and I won't have access for the game for a while, so sorry if I'm missing something)
  • You could write the speed value over the chart, same as for every other. I assume light blue column color means MASC, but this should also be clarified. Again, how are the "condensed" values calculated?
  • Same question goes for price chart, though these last two are more understandable, then the first two.

These are my first impressions. Overall, again, this is a great idea and really neat work, but explanations have to be provided for it to become useful.

Offline cest73

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Glad You've asked :)
I'll ship You the sources tomorrow (i'm off site of my work station), but here the explanations:

As DragonGod (editor @wiki team) at discord wrote, the firepower chart is in lulz/dakka units.
Sort of.
The problem is simple: how in the hell generalize the firepower into a single number (digit)?
We have RoF, DPS, damage per hit, WoE, and what not (lock on time?).
So i made a quick and dirty deed: i scaled the calculated "raw DPS" and the calculated "Primary +Secondary" damage ("Alpha strike per weapon) "about so".
Then i added the two together (yes as simple as that! :D )
Then, I pulled a square root of it and got range of values from ~5 to "zero" (0.8 is for MG and AC2)

This way I wanted to emphasize the extremes a bit (low end and high end) and to "compress" the values in the middle.
Luckily, i've got MBL to be 1.0 , which I find just ideal :^]

What i didn't expect, is the MRM40 to be "king of the hill" alongside the UAC20 ( enter "Bluebird"?)

Ranges:
The 1st "lul" token is for 100m
the next is 300, and it steps up for 200 each.

So i got the LRM to show the "empty" 1st "lul" and it's 2-7 as range and 1.4 as dakka (lrm5)
Also this "range division" seems to properly divide the weapons and really shows of how little merit the "ER"and "cER" are in the medium laser range bracket.
IMHO

So all in all, I expect objections to "dakka", but fail to see any flaw in "lulz" (=ranges)?


Armor.
I simply took the armor values from the wiki/spikx.net and divided them with 900 (Fafnir has 90000 points and gets 100 "nibbles")
There from all units merely scale away.
There might be errors

Speed.
Speed is to be updated, I found speed in the XMLs and plan to extract those (and add it to spikx.net's pool of data soon)
Speed is scaled to be in points 1-10 and a chart is in my source drawing, showing each speed's MASC value too.
Therefrom I needed to show MASC vs non MASC and I think i goofed it up, maybe i revisit it before final release.
Currently the solution of "light vs dark" cyan might stay, but I think it's more consistent to firepower if I turn it to scale horizontally?

Price.
The price is calculated by dividing the raw value with 1700. The result is shown in "nibbles".


The intention is to get an quick and easy oversight along mechs, variants and other sort of lists.

Now, shoot along, I can take it :D

Offline cest73

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the aforementioned link is obsolete, few new variants are entered, and few errors are mitigated :^]

the new link to graphs:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/htub9joti6feumb/mechs.zip?dl=0

and the file of (maybe) interest is in the attachment:

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I'll chew through your explanations and see if I can come up with something useful.

Offline (TLL)KitLightning

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Inderesding idea and it's really nice to see someone taking up this idea.;D Though more transparency as to what the values means, some of us gets distracted easy.

Having the firepower display the damage-over-time, with a high peak at the start and then dropping as any ammunition based weapons deplete is preferred. Though it needs a single values for the total damage output available added, ie. Alpha Strike. Then again its not entirely needed t have firepower at all since the weapons load-out are explained.

The total Armor value is good to have, the bars on the display however, could display the values on the chassis parts individually with the abbreviations for the armor locations above.

As for the Speed, the top speed is all that is needed, the values in brackets are redundant though having the. And what does the red bar mean?

On another note, heat management may be a factor to add to the charts. Though I'm uncertain as to how this would be calculated other than taking the heat generated from the lowest weapons up to an Alpha Strike, and graphically display this as a peak in bars with the heat generated over time.

Something old :-[

   

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Offline cest73

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@kit
yes, i did consider that, bud vent the down following path:
destilation
which means, strip all the data you can do without, yet still be able to righteously compare any two mechs.
while im still due the chart legend, it is obvious that i did decide to omit quite few datas from the standard data sheet.
i couldn't however omitt following:
-how much threat ("dakka") does that particular mech project @ given range?
-how much staying power does it have (armor)
-how fast does it project it's presence over the battlefield theatre (reverse/forward/masc)
but then i dug out turn speed :-/

i'll report back...

Offline cest73

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new mechs where rendered into the base:
(only few attached below)
the archive (with all thus far finished ones)
 8)
the firepower legend:
each "token" is a point
each column is range = 100,300,500,700,...,1900 (uneven hundreds of meters of 1st two KM)
each row is "dakka" an obscure assessment of weapon threat made by accounting for both DPS and Alpha-strike value in different proportions ("secret recipe")
max range accounted for is 1900m
max "dakka" accounted for seems to be undetermined yet  :-\, but UAC20 has 3.9 "dakka" as well as MRM40 launcher, FWIW?

Offline cest73

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total rework,
automatic update of images (python3)
and few peeky peeks ;)

updates:
Agility : speed(x) x turnrate(y)
speed is from a fixed table
found errors in my other script (the game data extracts) so expect update soon  ::)

wha_da_ya think?  8)

Offline cest73

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Re: Searchable graphical database of Mechs (or all assets) - [SOLVED]
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2017, 03:36:30 PM »
latest and greatest mech charts:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j9xinds8i77rw9w/Mechcharts-0.1.zip?dl=0
peeky peeks and sources attached  8):

TODO: free tons
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 03:52:56 PM by cest73 »

Offline cest73

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« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 04:26:12 PM by cest73 »

Offline cest73

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The legend is attached below

Offline Leeko

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Proposing a design of my own for this project, based on cest's. I deployed all my psychology of design knowledge on this. :>

First up: NO WEIRD MULTIDIMENSIONAL GRAPHS! I feel very strongly about this. They're just... not easy to interpret. If you absolutely must display information graphically, stick to something that can be measured in a one-dimensional scale, a la MW4 Mechlab's  Firepower, Armor, Speed, & Heat Efficiency bars (0 - 100 scores based on hidden math). I'm really sorry, it seems like a lot of thought and code went into them, and they're cool... but they're just too complicated, and they don't communicate much concrete information. :-\ A DPS vs range graph is mathy theorycraft... totally appropriate for a complete statistics section on the 'Mech's wiki page, but is it intuitive or helpful to a pubber?

Color changes: neutral borders except for the header, weapon type-to-color mapping changed to MW4 schema. This is important to me because it satisfies a bunch of my favorite design principles in one stroke: taking advantage of legacy, colors breaking up the space for easier parsing, adding a color modality to signify something rather than adding a type label :)
A few reasons for this. Makes the header pop more if it's the only yellow part. Frees up yellow for signifying ballistic weapons This then affords us the use of MW4's familiar color scheme.

Firepower graph replaced with a full weapons readout, more or less the same as a CBT record sheet. Anyone with two wits to rub together can intuit the range profile of a weapons configuration using the information contained herein.
Real version should probably add a column for minimum range, or indicate it where applicable like "70 - 1000". Maybe a heat column too. Would be cool if the weapon names were hyperlinked to their respective wiki pages!

Now I need to address the numbers - the most important and necessary change imo. I propose chopping off the first three digits of all the armor/damage values for the sake of making them significantly easier to understand. Or some other mathy way of changing the numbers to be in CBT's orders of magnitude.
In case there's any curiosity, I mostly used CBT numbers in the mockup... small laser damage is off, range is MWLL values, armor values are combined with structure where appropriate.

On to armor. THE PAPERDOLL!!! It's a classic signifier throughout BT/MW, and I'm in love with how freaking intuitive it is. Most people, in my experience, get the gist of BT/MW's sectional damage mechanics the moment they see the paperdoll. Moreover, I think armor distribution is necessary information. On discord cest argued that it isn't actually helpful because, as BattleTech designs are based on aesthetics and not videogame hitbox balance, a 'Mech's shape matters more than how much armor it has. Let's call this the Thanatos problem for short.

If we're using this kind of logic to determine what we should include, we can think of reasons to cut literally anything. An example: Heavy lasers have insane DPS, but most players aren't skilled enough to avoid wasting a lot that DPS because of the way the weapon functions. Long Toms probably have atrocious DPS because of slow refire, but they can single-handedly decide a match - to say nothing of the humble 0DPS NARC! So while this observation about hitboxes certainly rings true to a large extent, there are many other variables at work in gameplay. It's the kind of thing you just have to get a feeling for in the game, and even something that's occasionally balanced for. The Solitaire, for instance, had armor moved from its naked right torso to cover more of its fuckhueg gun. A more prominent example is external pods. Bottom line being, it seems to me that in order to determine how much of an issue a 'Mech's hitboxes are, you need to know how armored the sections in question actually are. I hope I've addressed this issue to your satisfaction - the paperdoll is my hill to die on! ;D

The Performance table is what I settled on as the least inelegant way of communicating all the miscellaneous crap. There's definitely more stuff that could or should go in each section; I just included what was on the top of my head at the time. Obviously should add turn radius for example. A possible alternative to boxes with text is a "radar" style chart, but this would remove the design's current signifiers for Double/Single Heat Sinks and Standard/XL Engine.

Final misc notes:
I think a heat efficiency metric is kind of important to have.
One important general feature of the design is leaving room to spell stuff out in the Weapons and Equipment sections.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 10:43:49 PM by Leeko »
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Offline cest73

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changed a lot...

preview:

Offline cest73

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I took into account so far:
1. Colors matching with MW4
2. Heat (how does one account for default heatsinks in MWLL?  ??? )
3. Class
4. Tonnage
5. Oversight of the confusing multi dimensional graph array

TODO
currently works on Linux, but I plan to have it standalone on windows:
side by side any two mechs comparison